Tell me about Poe 1 differences

[Nefarious7]

I'm considering going back to re play PoE 1. I did play it and beat it, but remember not having a good understanding of how things were working. In poe2, things seem much more clear and it's great. It'll probably help when replaying 1.

 

So, what are some of the big things to know in going back to poe1.

 

Tia

Edited May 20, 2018 by Nefarious7

[Dorftek]

Combat require player interaction on higher difficulties in PoE 1.

 

In PoE2 u set ur AI and and watch battles play out in your favor.

 

PoE1 has too much reading.

 

PoE2 has just the right amount of reading.

 

That's the differences to me

 

Oh and Might matters in PoE1..

 

[Hades]

PoE 1 doesn't have VA so (imo) makes things a biiitttt less interesting due to how much reading there is, so be prepared for that. I would look at the balance changes for PoE1 too, since classes are a bit different in PoE2 balance wise and skill wise. 

[philkingz]

For me it is the other way around. I havent played poe2 extensively, as i simply dont understand the mechanics, and those i do understand just confirm the fears i had during the developelment: not only improving, but taking away transparency and player decisioning, while making an illusion of having more.

 

What i first recognized, even during character creation is that there are so many useless skill-, class- and ability-descriptions that it does not even make sense to list them all up. This is the typical when "casualizing" games. "We dont want players to shy away from text and complexity, so we either reduce it where we can or hide it where we cannot". As a result the difference are hard to depict, as they are either only crudely explained or even hidden. I already read all wikis and they do not correctly represent all data.

 

Things i do understand e.g. Armor Penetration make not much sense to me. Yeah they wanted to make 1handers as efficient as 2handers and therefore got rid of flat reduction, but doing it this way is akward. The ARpen>2ARating-rule is basically useless. All enemies that have so little armor die anyway, there is no use for armorpen in that regard. As a result the one and only way to use Armorpen efficiently is to aim for 100% damage, thus meeting Armorrating with the Penetration rating. As there are no spoilers allowed here i can tell you that you meet those points automatically and there are only 2-3 enemies in the game you would need higher armor pen for, but in that cases it is just reasonable to meet a Pen-rating within -2 of their armor to be not fully cut at 25%, but 50% or 75% at bossfights. When you open the console, input "iroll20s" and "unlockbestiary", you can simply gather the data you need only to realize that there is not much sense to adapt accordingly.

 

A similar weird thing was done to Attackresolution. The crit-mechanic has been severly hut while the resolution-table includes a lot more miss and graze. The result is that player usually cannot **** up, no matter what they do. but you an also only build different styles to an extent. The easiest example is as already mentioned crit-builds. There is no way of handling it efficiently than just increasing acc so much that you replace miss and graze for a crit, since the crit itsself is not that worth it, unless you play a low penetration build on purpose, that gives you any other substantial advantage for it. I havent found one. As a result your

best bet is to have +50 more Acc than enemies Deflection to completely replace miss and graze (which is about 105 Acc). The crits are only a good sideeffect then, no matter if you are a devoted fighter with Axe and improved criticals or adevoted fighter with a stick - they will do rougly the same, which is kinda cool as you can do whatyoulike, but also a bit strange.

 

So what i mean is: In constrast to poeI the second part does not motivate you to read, as it is not essential or the results from reading (if there were something useful to read) and understanding the information are......., but the graphics are cool. Of course this only represents my opinion and people are free to choose their own.

[SonicMage117]

There are too many differences to list...

 

It may be better to ask what the similarities are.

[Wormerine]

1) Armor - in PoE1 it is easier to miss when you are making ineffective attacks if you don’t pay attention to combat log. Armor provides a flat number reduction from every attack - for example an armor against crush damage 14 will reduce every attack which does crush damage by 14. It’s impossible to completely negate damage and weapons will always do a certain minimal damage (can’t remember the exact number). As the result, it is more efficient to use heavy hitting, slow weapons against enemies with high Armor as the damage will get reduced only once. Dual wielding dagger might do more DPS, but damage will get reduced with every hit.

 

2) druids and priests get access to all spells, and wizards can edit grimpioies giving them access to all spells as well. Overall, while there is no multiclassing in the game, the flexible passive system allows you to create a multiclass-like character.

 

3) many abilities (and especially spellcasters) use per-rest abilities. Spend to many abilities in one fight and you will have to rest. Rest consumes “camping supplies” of which you can carry a limited amount.

 

4) food is not used for resting - it’s consumables which you can use outside of combat to prebuff.

 

5) PoE1 uses health/endurance system. Endurance works like health in Deadfire - it regenerates outside of combat and of your character runs out of it, it will get knocked out gaining an injury. Injuries give penalties, however, they don’t kill your character.

 

Health is reflected by a vertical green bar by character’s portrait, and it represent a long term well being of your characters. Unlike endurance it doesn’t regenerate and can be regained by resting only. Every character has much more health than endurance (how much depends on class and con). When character gets damaged it’s applied to both health and endurance. When a character runs out of health he or she will die (or be maimed first and then die, when knocked out for the 2nd time). This acts as a resource for melee classes, who mostly rely on per-encounter abilities.

 

6) most classes don’t have a per encounter resource but rather certain abilities can be used certain amount of time per-encounter or per-rest,

 

7) interrupt and concentration is a passive check, which take place whenever an attack connects. Chance to interrupt is determined by perception and concentration by resolve. Just like accuracy, but stats get compared and roll is made based on it. Successful interupts will increase recovery, slowing down enemy attack speed.

 

abilities and spells tend to have a very short cast time.

 

9) you have 6 man party.

 

These are the core mechanical differences I can think of.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Wormerine

[Juodas Varnas]

Mechanically, Deadfire is superior, that's for sure.

 

But i much preferred PoE 1's companions and felt that the story was much more engaging.

[Sven_]

7) interrupt and concentration is a passive check, which take place whenever an attack connects. Chance to interrupt is determined by perception and concentration by resolve. Just like accuracy, but stats get compared and roll is made based on it. Successful interupts will increase recovery, slowing down enemy attack speed.

I've only filtered bits of Deadfire so far -- first gone back replaying PoE again as a priest of Eothas to carry over the save in "Story Mode". :D This is something that confused me, and I've yet not further looked at it. In the in-game docs for Deadfire for instance it states that interrupt is still boosted by Perception (ditto attribute boosts for concentration) -- but neither does this bonus show anywhere next to the attributes. Nor is there an interrupt/concecntration value displayed in the character's sheet anymore. Unless, I was missing something in my quick look. AFAIR even the entire mechanics are described completely like they are in PoE1 in the tooltips. May be wrong though.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Sven_

[philkingz]

Mechanically, Deadfire is superior, that's for sure.

 

But i much preferred PoE 1's companions and felt that the story was much more

engaging.

 

For sure, i would bet you to elaborate, so I see someone actually showing the exact differences  and their consequences, as i cannot find them ingame or on the wiki. Some points are:

 

 

- Tooltips and Transparence

- Attackresolution

- ArmorPenetration and ArmorRating (flatreduction vs. non linear breakpoints)

 

https://imgur.com/a/oibgdMX

 

Im maybe just too stupid to understand, but i neither find this explanation consistent nor do i think those changes make sense, if i oversee the contradictions and try to make sense of it. This goes hand in hand with the Penetration and Crit changes.

 

 

- Removal of limited abilities and encounter-balance

(i heard the game is too easy on PoTB, which would be the typical symptome of "innovation")

- how are radical changes to core mechanics for classes like priest, wizards, druids are counterbalanced?

- simplification of interrupt mechanics (layers, instead of rolls => burst encounter > strategical decision making in prolonged fights)

 

 

This is only a segment of mechanics, in which a comparion between both games would be interesting.

When i saw the videos of the developement i feared they might "casualize" the game.

Typical symptoms would be:

 

-less documentation and transparency of/in mechanics, so people dont need to read or understand

-simplified mechanics that play by itsself (e.g. interruption)

-less balance, is always going hand in hand with mechanics

-less punishable encounters (so all players feel good, instead

-flashy story, but not told better, 

-faster pacing, but repetitive combat scenarios.

 

As i havent played it much now, i cant judge them all, but i see definitely that tooltips and documentation were ****ed up,

that mechanics are dumped down, the scenery is flashy, the class  balance completely ****ed up. But giving them the benefit of the doubt, i cannot judge difficulty, combat scenarios and storytelling. What i recognized positively were graphics (not the voiceovers), animations and the general visual character display. But i fear those wont outweight the rest. i am afraid to start to game and realize that even in those 3 factors the **** plays exactly out as i feared.

Edited May 21, 2018 by philkingz

[Wormerine]

 

7) interrupt and concentration is a passive check, which take place whenever an attack connects. Chance to interrupt is determined by perception and concentration by resolve. Just like accuracy, but stats get compared and roll is made based on it. Successful interupts will increase recovery, slowing down enemy attack speed.

I've only filtered bits of Deadfire so far -- first gone back replaying PoE again as a priest of Eothas to carry over the save in "Story Mode". :D This is something that confused me, and I've yet not further looked at it. In the in-game docs for Deadfire for instance it states that interrupt is still boosted by Perception (ditto attribute boosts for concentration) -- but neither does this bonus show anywhere next to the attributes. Nor is there an interrupt/concecntration value displayed in the character's sheet anymore. Unless, I was missing something in my quick look. AFAIR even the entire mechanics are described completely like they are in PoE1 in the tooltips. May be wrong though.

That's curious. To be honest due to playing beta I know Deadfire mechanics already and didn't read tooltips. If that is still in, than it's leftover from PoE1.

 

In Deadfire concentration and interupt are assigned to skills and have nothing to do with attributes. Many of the skills you use will interupt enemy when certain conditions are met: if I remember well fireball interupts on a crit, while kockdown interupts of graze or better. If enemy is casting an ability and gets interpted, the casting stops and resource used for this spell is gone. Concentration is a shield which acts against interupts - it can be gained by certain buffs and passives. Character will concentration of 1 will have to be hit with two interupts in order to be interupted. 

[Sven_]

 

In Deadfire concentration and interupt are assigned to skills and have nothing to do with attributes. Many of the skills you use will interupt enemy when certain conditions are met: if I remember well fireball interupts on a crit, while kockdown interupts of graze or better. If enemy is casting an ability and gets interpted, the casting stops and resource used for this spell is gone. Concentration is a shield which acts against interupts - it can be gained by certain buffs and passives. Character will concentration of 1 will have to be hit with two interupts in order to be interupted. 

 

 

I've just started playing proper (after completing PoE again). There's got to be some actual numbers displayed both for interupt and concentration still, somewhere? Also, curiously, my priests holy radiance seems to have the ability to interrupt, even though it doesn't say so in the ability's description (I may be wrong). Is there a detailed write-up on the entire overhaul here made, also the Maths behind somewhere?

 

Curiously, the starting stats between classes have further leveled as well. Every class is starting with an accuracy of 20, the defenses seem more leveled out as well (in particular deflection). A bit odd that -- but seeing how Josh has never been a fan of strictly class based systems, perhaps the natural path of evolution. I still think the "attraction" of a class based system is that, well classes are best as distinct as possible (I have no preference here if a char system is class based or isn't as such). Naturally the abilities are meant to provide the difference here, and leveling the base stats makes for easier balancing. E.g. starting out as a mage on Baldur's Gate at level 1 may have been a bit rough on some newbies to D&D games, whilst picking a fighter, completely different experience.

Edited May 24, 2018 by Sven_

[Wormerine]

Yes, accuracy is same for every class - change due to multiclassing?

 

The amount of “concentration” a unit has (your party member or enemy) can be seen in the stat pop up in the left upper corner which appears when you hover over an ally or an enemy:

In the attached screenshot Titan has 4 concentration which means it will take 5 interupts to actually interrupt him.

 

I can’t remember exact stats of each skills. If the skill doesn’t have an ability to interupt than it should do so. If you find such thing happening it might be worth reporting in the bug forum.

[Sven_]

Cheers, quality stuff. I'm still trying to soak it all in. Purely speaking about interrupts, that looks a huge overhaul.

So basically in Poe1:

- Every hit could in theory interrupt an opponent
- As you say, this was a passive check on every hit roll

In PoE2:

- Interrupts are tied to skills/abilities
- They are also only triggered after a several interrupts (determined by the concentration of the opponents)

 

Any overhaul to the effects of an interrupt?
 

Edited May 24, 2018 by Sven_

[Wormerine]

Pretty much right. The biggest new benefit (and danger) of Deadfire’s interupts is loosing a spell without having it go off. In Deadfire when you cast a fireball and get interrupted you will loose that spell (spell resource will get consumed without the spell going off). In short interrupting enemies is the best way to ensure their dangerous abilities won’t be used, similarly protecting your spellcasters is important if you want to successfully finish casting spells.

 

I found Deadfire Veteran easy enough to not worry about it, but in beta keeping distance and giving spellcasters concentration was important.

[Sven_]

Often times the case -- on standard levels of difficulty, you doN't have to master/game the systems as much. I think this game (PoE too) could do with better documentation. The rules, whilst some are vastly streamlined from say D&D mechanics -- they're still comprehensive enough that they could ship with their own manual. I think PoE was quite opaque on some things just as well. For instance, how the accuracy for spells was calculated (the bonus), that was never ever explained anywhere in the game afaik. Likewise, going from PoE to Deadfire is also somewhat comparable to making the jump from one D&D edition to another. There's entire sets of new mechanics introduced, such as the power levels, and several more. Unlike a tabletop ruleset, it's only ever used for a single campaign.

In a sense, some of the Infinity Engine games could feel less "complex" in parts simply because they kept a few of the stuff "under the hood" though. Whilst the combat logs on Deadfire are now as detailed and comprehensive as ever.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Sven_

[Wormerine]

I remember Deadfire having a pop ups explaining all major things. How hit and damage is calculated is certainly there. There is entire tutorial part of the journal, where all the mechanics are listed for your use. It’s in the same space we’re bestiary is if I remember well.

[Sven_]

There's also a decent Wiki! That said, one thing it doesn't say is how exactly spells and abilities would be modified by the power level (exact numbers/factors on durations, penetration, etc). Seeing this thread, a section where the differences between Deadfire and Pillars are listed may come in handy, though.   
https://pillarsofeternity2.wiki.fextralife.com/Power+Level

 

[Sedrefilos]

For me the differences are not that big and I don't feel it's mandatory to understand every mechanic in order to play the game effectively, in normal difficulty at least (that's the difficlty I played both games). I play Deadfire exactly as I played Pillars 1.

 

The mechanics are unclear in both games unless you've followed the production up close (by updates and forums) or sit and read every tooltip popup regarding mechanics. 

 

That said, my opinion is that both games have very good mechanics and are great overall.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Sedrefilos

[Sven_]

I consider some things to be quite significant, though I fully agree that you don't need to know the inside-outs to ever play these games (makes it easier though, and adds another layer of depth on top).    Another one: spell/ability scaling. On PoE outside of accuracy bonus AFAIK it made no much difference if a level 1 spell was cast by a level 1 wizard or a level 14 one -- assuming they both had the same base attributes (and no bonus to them). This time around though there is the power level gains, which add significant bonus depending on the char's power level gained to damage/heal, penetration as well as durations.
 

Speaking about power levels -- is it acknowledged anywhere whether AI characters have power levels too? Or is it simply something introduced so that for the player characters, there is some scaling whilst leveling up going on. And  whilst we're at it, it seems curious that my priest's abilities seem to scale differently to my mages. Usually it seems a +5% gain for every power level above the spells/abilities in terms of damage and duration... but my priest sees some of his spells beefed up by 10%, some even by 20%, despite both mage and priest being on the same character and power level as such. So there seem some class based differences too. As of the priest, this seems to apply to his core priest spells, e.g. holy radiance only.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Sven_

[jsaving]

I think PoE1's vastly inferior companion AI is probably the most notable difference right off the bat.  More trash mobs and a more linear plotline would be up there as well, along with a stronghold that at random intervals suffers damage unless you suspend whatever else you're doing and run back to it. 

 

The other thing I'd want to know when replaying PoE1 today (or playing it for the first time) is just how powerful priests and wizards were compared to the other classes in the game. 

 

Good luck!