Namutree

Objectification is NOT only bad when it doesn't fit the setting! Objectification involves the disregard of a human being's dignity. That is always bad. Probably why I hate so many Animes.

When you say objectification Darji; what form of it are you referring to? I've just checked the definition of objectification, and it seems to mean treating a person as a thing; without regard for their dignity. How is disregard for people's dignity not bad?

Lephys and Hiro make me think some people will never understand each other. Why you guys even respond to each other at this point is beyond me. If I were either of you I would just have started to ignore the other.

They can't because this is a forum, but if they could; I think Hiro or Lephys would have by now.

That would be cool!

This. I'm not sure why some pro-mancers think making the romance mandatory is an even remotely good idea for a wrpg.

So, does anyone think Obsidian will add romances to poe2 to please pro-mancers? Not asking if you want them to; just if you think they will.

Those are my favorite kinds of mods too.

If western rpgs would have focused on romance; they would have just been inferior jrpgs. Who would buy that? Even if people did but them; there would be no wrpgs. The only choices would be: Jrpgs or jrpgs. Why Obsidian shouldn't make jrpgs: 1) In today's market; jrpgs are lagging behind wrpgs. 2) Obsidian has no experience in making jrpgs. 3) The jrpg market is over-saturated. 4) The developers at Obsidian like wrpgs more than jrpgs. 5) Western developers are somewhat ignored in Japan, and the jrpg market relies on Japan to a great extent.

I simply cannot properly understand the top paragraph; please re-write it. Romance and love are only important to some people, and no one says love doesn't exist in poe. Sure, you can't have a romance over the course of an adventure, but it's not like there are no relationships in the entire world.

If romances were in all rpgs people like Stun would be arguing that romances need to go away. I also suspect that crpgs never wouldn't be popular in the west. Sacrificing core content for romance back in the 1980's would have been a disaster. Jrpgs would dominate the market.

Whether or not Obsidian would make a good romance is unknown, but there is reason to think they may screw it up. There is no reason that a romance becomes shallow just because it isn't attached to the main plot. I've seen shallow romances that were attached to the main plot, and I've seen good romances that weren't. Also, please clarify something for me: When you say integrate the romance into the story are you suggesting it be a mandatory or a relevant element of the plot? That would be a complete betrayal of the IE games. Romance in the IE games are strictly a feature; putting them in as a core element would kill role-playing. Sacrificing mechanics in favor of romance is just silly. Whether or not you care about them you will be dealing with the game mechanics! Anti-mancers will not be dealing with romances even if they are implemented well; unless they are mandatory, and that ruins the game completely so that issue is moot. You think that just because the story isn't about romance its a boring 0815? Sounds like you want a jrpg; not an IE style game. Even if Obsidian decided to side with you; poe's engine is a poor choice for a jrpg. Obsidian could create a decent jrpg AT BEST. I love me a good jrpg, but they come out all the time. An IE style game; it's been a while, and I'm tired of waiting. The story in poe will likely be much more engaging than any story about romance could ever be for role-playing fans.

I guess I have your admiration, and at this point; I might need your pity.

Hiro vs Lephys STILL isn't over? That's a long argument.

All true. Doesn't change anything though. What the pro-mancers want Obsidian to sacrifice in favor of romance cannot be expected to be found in a mod at all. You tell me which you find more reasonable: A) Add romances: Core content and mechanics are sacrificed so romances can be added. The romances might not even be good, and if they aren't they can really hurt the game. Obsidian has little experience making romances. Many Obsidian fans outright dislike the presence of romances; not surprising since Obsidian isn't known for romances. Poe becomes more like a run of the mill Bioware game; which there are plenty of, and will be many more of. Very little (If any) of the content sacrificed can be added in via mod. B) Don't add romances: More/better core mechanics. No chance of hurting the game with bad romances. Pro-mancers still get romances a year or so later via mods. Yes, the good ones require a bit of work to get, but they will be available. Not to mention a decent share of pro-mancers don't have high standards and they will find a "good" romance mod quickly. Obsidian stands out as alternative to Bioware; giving the rpg market with more variety. Everyone benefits from better mechanics; only some of us benefit from romances.

I think the best mods are graphics and minor content additions like the gibberlings3 tweak pack. Though I don't use the mechanic changing mods unless they're making the game harder or making something absurdly under-powered viable. I feel the best romance mods usually involve a new npc.

While your general point is perfectly valid; it doesn't apply to the case of Alpha Protocol. Sega was not pushing Obsidian to make it's romances the way they were. I'm pretty sure Obsidian had enough creative freedom to decide much of how the romances turned out.

Obsidian tried romance in Alpha Protocol. It was unimpressive. When I said Bioware was better, I was referring to their better examples when they weren't pandering to a degenerate crowd of booty chasers. The reason not to tie the romance into the story is then you have Obsidian writing romance, and not improving the core experience. Let the Modders handle romance. Think of Obsidian as ammonia and romance as bleach. Romances in Alpha Protocol had different goal than what romances in Bioware's games have, as they where meant to be sleazy romances from Bonds and other secret agent movies, in which they succeeded quite well, but of course that also means that they were quite shallow and meaningless for the plot and more titillation for player (which some will argue that is also big part of Bioware's romances). Modders ability to produce good romance is much lower than game developer's as their ability to create needed plot interaction is much more restricted and it's rare occurrence that technically savvy modder team has good writer among them, although that has happened in past but usually only with popular games and even then you get one good mod per thousand poor mods. So I would not rise my hopes that there will ever be good romance mod for PoE. I think poe will be popular, so I think it'll get the romances. As for the quality; there is usually a dump of bad romance mods, but I know how to find the needles in the haystacks. If the pro-mancer doesn't care enough to figure out how to tell the quality mods from the junk mods; they probably didn't care much about romances anyway. Also, some people like silly, degenerate, and badly written trash! Don't believe me? ME2/ME3 romances has plenty of fans, so not everyone has high standards.

I'm fairly certain he couldn't care less about my opinion on the matter. What he wants is more kindling for his fire. I could (and I've done this) say "yes, you're right. I hadn't thought of it that way. My bad.", and he'd say "HAH, you're just being sarcastic!", because he thinks I'm out to get him for some reason. I'll not deny that I type a lot, but it's not as if I'm responding to ghosts here. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. I was just stating my guess at Hiro's point of view. Not saying he's right; not saying he's wrong.

But then you're okay with Lephys' evasive and argumentative debating style of avoiding the question for pages on end, unless they have some ulterior motive to extend the debate in a way that is not applicable? And I'm still waiting for you Lephys to answer the question on why developers sexualise NPCs in video games. Even Anita Sarkeesian's videos will help you with this one. To be honest I don't see the debate like that, I think Lephys has been very reasonable and forthright in responding to you? But I have to say I also at times don't follow all the nuances of your debates with Lephys as it gets confusing..and I'm sure I'm not alone? It's hard to keep up with because there's a lot of text, and a lot of repetition.

Obsidian tried romance in Alpha Protocol. It was unimpressive. When I said Bioware was better, I was referring to their better examples when they weren't pandering to a degenerate crowd of booty chasers. The reason not to tie the romance into the story is then you have Obsidian writing romance, and not improving the core experience. Let the Modders handle romance. Think of Obsidian as ammonia and romance as bleach.

Hiro did take an interest in my post and has mentioned it more than once. Hiro now wants Lephy's opinion on the matter, but feels that he is dodging the question by over-analyzing the way Hiro phrased it.

That Solaufein mod for BG2 seems to have quite a following. How much of it is because of romance and how much is due to having a NPC fighter/mage is unknown, but it seems to get a lot of attention. It's the romance mainly. A fighter/mage npc isn't a big deal. Another reason it is so popular is that many people really loved the drow city, and adding Solaufein is a way of expanding that part of the game's influence.

ADorothy: Divinity isn't even RTwP,and doesn't play like the IE games. That's no successor at all.

I also thought that Jaheira's portrait in BG2 was a little... off. As she is my favorite character that really bothered me. I sometimes replaced it with a better version. As for the thread question; I would prefer the BG portrait system. Those painted portraits are just so pretty!