Amentep

Explain to me why nobody bothers to read when I write things like "Actually my real complaint has been that I don't think that this will stop to online, extra or additional content but taken to its (logical?) extreme which would make it impossible to sell a game used as no second hand user would be able to play the game since the second hand user didn't pay the publisher for it." That said, if player A has bought a game for which he would always be able to access the servers as long as he wanted to or as long as the publisher supported the game and then sells it to player B, as player A can no longer access the servers, what justification is there that player B should not be able to access those servers? The net use on the servers hasn't changed. The only justification is its a new revenue stream for the publishers. Yay for them. My worry - as pointed out above - is that this will not stick to limited, optional, and/or online server-based content.

And that may well be...but...so what? It seems to me that the "solution" the publishers want is to punish the retail stores (who carry their games) by passing on certain extra fees to the consumer. I'm not talking about DLC; DLC, expansions and the like are a different kettle of fish. What I'm talking about is the ability to access the online component of the game; EA has said that used buyers of their game can't access the online content unless they pay an additional fee. My misunderstanding was that the online content was a player-to-player connection, but I've been corrected in that this is actually a player-to-EA server. Now comes the murky bit; technically if person A buys a game for $50 and is given a redeemable code to access the games servers, in theory either part of the price of the $50 should cover their access to the online server or the company is offering the service free to the consumer with the understanding that the consumer will take advantage of it. When person A sells their game to Gamestop they are now no longer accessing the server. Person B comes along and buys the game from Gamestop used. The company now wants Person B to pay to access the servers; except Person A's purchasing price on that disc "covered" that access (ie if Person A kept the game he'd be able to access the online content as long as that service was available from the company). The argument is that player B didn't buy it new so didn't pay the company to cover the cost of the servers; however what it seems that the game companies are doing is, in essence, finding a way to get extra money out of a single purchase. So who loses in this scenario? Gamestop? The used-game buyer? Both? Actually my real complaint has been that I don't think that this will stop to online, extra or additional content but taken to its (logical?) extreme which would make it impossible to sell a game used as no second hand user would be able to play the game since the second hand user didn't pay the publisher for it. Not really avoiding it. I'm just not sure why Gamestop making a huge profit entitles the publisher to go down a path that could eventually shaft the consumer. I'm not entirely convinced that even the argument that online content has extra infrastructure costs makes it make sense either (see above). When the difference is $10 I always buy it new. Unless it something I really want and there's no new copies available, I usually only buy used when its below $20.

You can't have more used games than you sell new; If retail stores buy 30,000 copies of a game across the country, the most used games that could exist is 30,000 (ie every game sold and is now in the position to be bought back) Even in your example, the "other 8" they buy back/sell used had to have been bought previously somewhere (and thus the publisher was paid for them already). True, if there is only 30k copies across the US there can't be more than that, but you can resell that item via gamestop 20 times, compared to the publishers solitary sale. So one game could be owned by many people earning Gamestop (or other retailers) a huge amount of money compared to what they paid for it. Right, but the publisher has still been paid for the copies bought. It doesn't matter if the copy is in the hands of 20 different people (one at a time), the publisher has already been paid (when the retail store it was bought at ordered it from the publisher) and someone has already paid that retailer for that copy. I don't believe if the 20 people who bought it used did not have the option to buy it used it would magically become +20 orders from the retailer to the publisher for the item new. Sure it *might* lead to an increase in orders. It might not as well. The content wasn't free and now locked out. New copies sold of the game have a code bundled with you that purchasers can redeem to get the content. The entire process is the same as if you were buying the content, except instead of entering your credit card info, you're effectively clicking the "redeem code" button. It most definitely is an incentive for people to buy the game new. It is "Thank you for buying a copy of the game and directly supporting us. To show our gratitude we have granted you a key to enable you to acquire some paid downloadable content." Unless you're suggesting that the better idea, (and I suppose it'd be "fair") is for the publishers to just outright charge everyone for the content. I don't know why you'd want those that get new copies of the game to lose this incentive though simply because you don't think it's fair for used game buyers. My thought is that prior iterations of these games did not have the code system; that the code system was created as a way to cut out the used game market now. Also if you weren't being charged extra for it (ie if the cost of Madden XX without the code was the same as Madded XXI with the code), it was free. But again, I said that I could be mistaken (I personally don't pay attention to online content as I have no way to access it so I'm not sure what is the case; any clarity that can be offered is appreciated).

You can't have more used games than you sell new; If retail stores buy 30,000 copies of a game across the country, the most used games that could exist is 30,000 (ie every game sold and is now in the position to be bought back) Even in your example, the "other 8" they buy back/sell used had to have been bought previously somewhere (and thus the publisher was paid for them already).

I'm having flashbacks to 1982. (Obviously this is a horrible murder, but in looking for motives they should be examining the subject).

I don't see why there is "confusion". Buying an item that has been previously owned is from its current owner is not stealing. Unless I'm terribly mistaken, even when you buy a new game from a game store you're not buying it from the publisher - that's already been done by the store. Whether you buy used or new the money goes to the store (just more of it goes to the store if you buy used). Publisher sells to retailer, retailer sells to public. Publisher already has the money for the games sold to retail (I'm a bit hazy about the returnability of unsold games since most game stores seem to dump overstock into sale bins; if there is returnability on unsold games it seems to be something that isn't a total return policy). So as I understand it, if the local game store buys ten copies of a publisher's GAME X and they sell 7 copies the publisher is paid for 10 copies. If the retailer buys back 5 of those games and then resells them, it doesn't take away from the publishers bottom line because they already sold the 10 copies that store was going to buy. What the store does with their inventory isn't the business of the publisher, IMO. The game publishers though seem to be thinking "Hey we sold 10 games to the game store, but they've bought back 5 of those and sold them again...if we can kill used game sales the store will have to buy 13 games from us to accommodate demand." My position is that the 5 people who bought the game used wouldn't have bought it at the new price, so the increase in new game sales isn't going to happen. So to get around that, the game publishers are locking content away from users (online only content for now; I guess this is fair enough if its server related since the used sales aren't going to support the servers) to encourage them to buy new. My alarmist worry is that they'll start locking away all game content to encourage people to buy new and thus force the retail store into buying more copies of the game from them and the end user is left with an expensive coaster if they buy a game they ultimately don't like.

How far is a dragon's flight from Lac Dinneshire?

I think the issue for some is that locking out content that (and perhaps I'm mistaken) was free for people previously doesn't seem like an incentive so much as a money grab. Has PC gaming ever been as large as consoles? I think there might have been a boom of PC exclusives in the 90s when home PCs dropped dramatically in price, but even then I recall consoles were more numerous. Even in 2010, more people have TVs than PCs and a new PS3 is less expensive than a (gaming) computer. Back in the C64, Apple IIe days it certainly seemed like it was. The games sections were just as large for the C64 as they were for the Atari 2600 a few years earlier. But back then buying a gaming computer was just as easy as buying a console.

I guess my fear is that this is all part of the same spectrum; that the THQ's guys comments are indicative that they, EA and Activision are going to the same point just at different speeds and coming at it from different directions. I could be wrong, of course.

I don't have a way to connect my consoles to online anyhow so its a moot point for me (and probably why I don't pay much attention to the online content of games). Still weird to me that Madden uses servers (I guess it helps keep track of stats so you can compare with your friends/enemies or something)?

I'm not quite sure how it would even be possible to nerf the offline content. I don't have my PS3 hooked up to the internet, it would be pretty difficult for a publisher to get at it without going into my house and smashing the DVD with a hammer. By making it so you have to connect online to use it, I'd guess, so that once a disc has been activated for use once it can't be used again and always being online to use it. Again, its the alarmist in me talking. So I may be wrong/crazy.

Why not? Because the game company decided you shouldn't? No, because online content is an extra. If you folks want to stick with the car comparison, think of it as a manufacturer's warranty. There are a lot of reasons for this. If we are talking about multiplayer games with servers, that is an extra cost for the developer/publisher to run. They work that into the price of a new game. They have no obligation to provide that service to people who do not buy the game from them. Why would Madden 2010 or SvR have multiplayer servers? Seems to me if you're going to use servers and charge to use them, you'd be better off using a MMO model (which I don't have a problem with). But again my BIG protestation over this (just like with EA) is that I don't think its going to just stay on "extra" online content.

I care...damnit...I care... Well given that I think they'll find this policy won't lead to a big bump in their sales, maybe that will learn them. Or I could be wrong and everyone will just go with it and one day in the future you won't be able to play a game unless you bought it new. And if you buy it new and don't like it your only option is to add it to your stack of worthless discs that you use as a coaster.

Never said they could. I still don't see that as a reason for nerfing used games (and again, I don't think this will stay at nerfing online content; if this persists its inevitable to this alarmist in me that they'll start doing this to offline content). The parts is a fair point BUT cars also have a longer life than the average game (as DLC/Expansions for most games still don't seem to be common). It seems to me the appropriate model would be for the game companies to, you know, make stuff that consumers would buy new for their used games as opposed to trying to discourage them buying used games. But that would require work when instead they can just cut out online content to used buyers without having to lift a finger. Media Play's model seemed similar to Gamestops at the time from the outside looking in (but I didn't work at either store so can't really argue the mechanics). Mind you since Media Play eventually failed totally and Gamestop didn't, it could have been down to the companies involved.

Why not? Because the game company decided you shouldn't?

I am pretty sure libraries, as well as video-rental-shops have to buy more for their copy. Games rental still doesn't do this though, so there's an additional loss post right there. Actually from people I know who work in Libraries for books they pay the price set by the vendor, which is typically the MSRP. Right now, I'm told, the big money is making Libraries pay for online databases which seem to be the popular resource for research at least and for which the companies charge more for. Actually for college there's big money in textbooks; the textbook companies don't try to put the used textbook stores out of business, but what they do is release new books every 2-3 years and hope the universities follow suit of adopting the book, ensuring that there's a limited shelf-life in a particular edition. It seems that this was the approach that had been used in the past, updating Madden or Smackdown vs Raw every year, but now for some reason that's not enough for the game publishers. That was probably the idea until it became just clear how much money GameStop is making out of this. I am sure if libraries make millions of bucks a year booksellers would want a slice too. But I don't think libraries do financially *that* well... I'm not sure what GameStop making money has to do with this - I don't see Ford, Chevrolet, GM, etc trying to shut down CarMax. And its not like Used Games is an easy money-making proposition; I remember the late box-store Media Play had great failure with their used game initiative.

Michael Chabon's Pulitzer Prize winning The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay took 4 years to write, I think, this after spending 5 years on a novel he ultimately put aside, unable to complete. (Yeah its still one person, but you make it sound so easy). Still not sure the expense of producing a game means one has to be forced to use the disc as a coaster because the game publishers decided that the used game market was affecting their bottom line (which I should add, I'm not sure is actually the case; I think the majority of people who buy used games wouldn't have bought the game if it wasn't used so I don't think they'll see the upswing in consumers from killing the second hand market for games.)

That isn't what he said at all. He said don't complain that you aren't getting the fancy online stuff if you aren't buying new. Perhaps I'm being a bit of an alarmist, but I can't imagine that this is going to stop at online content. Once people have had to live for awhile with online content being locked away, or not being able to access online features at all (per the EA model), I think the companies will start looking at ways of applying the model to the whole game content.

heh, I played some games from start to finish over 20 times. not because they were made to be played that much. because those were great games. but you can't help getting curious when a game shows it's double-layered. and if the game has an interesting story I want to follow but the game design is ATROCIOUS and the process brings only frustration - this just makes me want to crack the designer's skull open. wtf was he thinking? this is especially true for AP. there's no way I'm replaying it. I'll download a couple of walkthroughs instead. And that's totally fair. I was mostly just addressing replayablity as a modern issue (or maybe I was more addressing that I personally don't look out for games that are replayable so much as I replay games I really, really like). I have no problem admitting I liked ME more than the BG games and understand others may feel differently (for what its worth, I probably enjoyed JE more than ME and I imagine I'm in a small population on that one).

I didn't like TOB end fight; but I never had a problem with BG2's (probably why I finished it more than once).

Eh, I've seen chain used music stores, chain used VHS/DVD stores, chain Car dealers and chain comic book stores. Apparently THQ isn't going to be happy unless everyone buys the game new the week it comes out and if the buyer ends up not liking the game to have no option other than to use the discs as coasters.

Really? A modern curse? I replayed Adventure on the Atari 2600, Phantasie on the C64, Shining Force on the Genesis, Chrono Trigger on the SNES, Ogre Battle on PSX, IWD, PST and Fallout 1 and 2 on PC? I have no interest in 100% completion. I don't go playing games just to get achievements. Very rarely do I care about alternate endings (unless I really like the game). But if I like a game, I'll usually want to play it multiple times. To me Alpha Protocol was about living with the choices you made, not constantly reloading because you made a "bad" choice. I enjoyed it; making decisions on the fly that felt "right" at the time and seeing what happened.

Considering the difference in length, not a surprise. Length is part of it (as I tended to get bored about halfway through BG2). But I also found BG1's end to be terribly frustrating and only beat it the one time I did by cheating. To tell the truth, I prefer IWD and PST to either BG games.

I've played ME more times over my ownership than I ever have either of the Baldur's Gate games. In fact I played BG to completion once, TotSC once, BG2 twice, ToB once. I beat ME three times with just one of my characters (I've got 5) and ME2 twice (once each with two characters). Can't say one is better than the other since its up to personal taste, but for me I found ME a lot more replayable than BG games.

It doesn't change the fact that the game publishers are apparently the only people concerned with a second-hand market (book publishers don't, music publisher's didn't, comic book publishers don't (in fact they cater to this market), car makers don't, movie producers don't, etc.)