Master Dahvernas

I have to agree with Boiler's comments that he/she made earlier on in this thread that others seemed to echo: The Sith Lords is just a mess of non-connected "set pieces" (battles; discussions; cut-scenes) that doesn't really have a cohesive plot to it. It brings up a LOT of good ideas, both philosophical and ideological... But the execution -- key -- Is slip shod at best and very unprofessional even for a video game. I blame LA for the impossible deadline of just one year for a game of this size and scope. It is just not possible and what we have is the unfortunate result. The biggest flaw with this game is that, along with what others have said about just glossing over certain key story elements that are just left hanging is... This game makes the cardinal sin of using a "Deus EX Machina" ending/plot twist once the Jedi Council "re-exiles" you and Kriea's master plan is revealed (if you can all it that). A Deus Ex Machina ending is one where the storytellers literally pull out of thin air plot and story elements simply because they've written themselves into a corner. Not only is this sloppy storytelling, it also runs the very big risk of making the audience, in this case, the gamer, feel cheated -- because unlike KOTORI, there are no subtle clues that you can piece together to come to the SAME conclusion like you did when it was revealed that the PC was Revan -- And I think this is exactly why everyone keeps saying they aren't emotionally satisfied with the endings (regardless of what side you play). The fact that someone has to come to a forum and ask what the producers intended becuase they left so many questions unanswered is a pure sign of sloppy storytelling and is much different from asking for different interpretations because the original poster is asking "What the Hell is going on when I play this game" versus "What do you make of this element?" Those are two VERY different things and like I said, as a storyteller, you don't want the former to be the main reason your work is discussed.

Agreed. Petitions show is an INTEREST in something. What needs to be done to cause TPB to take notice is to somehow translate that interest into tangible profits that would benefit them in the long run. In other words, a better petition would be... If LA and Obsidian made an add-on expansion pack with all of those endings restored would you buy it? It is a Catch-22 because a lot of fans would NOT buy it because this is stuff that is already in the game we bought and it would be looked on as corporate greed (and it is to some degree)... But if it was the only alternative to getting a "finished" game, would consumers be willing to pay for it?

To answer the initial question: Yes. Consumers can judge Obsidian based on one game since this is the first game this (new) company has made. That's life. This goes for every thing and every one in every industry. As cliche as it sounds, you only get one shot to make a [good] first impression. I like the darker storyline of KOTOR II, but at the same time it also doesn't feel like a Star Wars story either. I know Empire Strikes Back was "dark" (I really don't think it is as dark as people say) and Episode III is going to be dark... But this was almost a Fan Fiction-style story that presented more of a "What if?" scenario than a cannon-type story. That's just my humble opinion and is of course, subjective. But getting back to whether or not gamers can judge OE based on TSL. Yes, unfortunately. I also realize that they probably didn't have enough time to properly finish and polish the game as they intended due to LA's impossible deadline, but at the same time I am really wondering if another six months truly would have improved the game (both technically and storywise) since I agree that this is more of an expansion pack than a full game (regardless of what and was not cut).

I have to agree about "Buddy Jesus". He is the only one who looks remotely like you would expect a war veteran/exile to look like in both age and appearance (beard; long hair). I don't see why each male face can't have a beard and various other features (no hair; long hair; goatee; sideburns; scars). It would just be the same head model with perhaps some parameters changed that added those things. The same thing with females as far as hairstyles go. Sheesh... I suppose their isn't a mod that lets you have ALL the heads from KOTOR I in KOTOR II yet, correct?

A big reason for all of the "shortcuts" was to free up memory... All 64 MBs of it... On the XBox so the game would *cough* supposedly run better *cough*. That's a joke. The XBox version is barely playable given the 1999 PC specs of the XBox. As far as how many discs... It is approximately 4.5 Gigs (uncompressed), so just one DVD --- How all XBox games come and how the PC versions should have been released given it is 2005. And for those wondering... The music tracks on the XBox version are also in MONO. Again, probably to free up memory so the game would run better... Which is once again a joke since the Nforce2 mobo the XBox has can actually do full stereo wavs and mp3s without much trouble and latency (even on a PIII). Every other game has stereo quality sound as far as music and effects go. This is just complete BS and I don't buy a lick of it when the devs keep saying it was to make the game run better (the game literally strobes and crawls on the XBox in the Peragus mining tunnels as it does on the PC).

No one is starting a war. It is just fact Nvidia OGL drivers and chipset architecture is superior to ATIs. It always was. This is why Nvidia bought Voodoo (because their OGL was so good) and integrated their architecture because then (mid-to-late '90s) OGL was "the" API vs. DirectX that MS had just started to push on developers to grab a share of that (then) untapped gaming market as well as the CAD, Maya and other professional rendering applications market that to this day still use OGL as their primary API. The big problem with ATI used to be the OGL driver team was separate from the rest of the Catalyst team. In fact, it was spread around the world both in Germany and Canada. Now the German team has moved to Canada, so communication problems should not be an issue any longer (that was one reason why the OGL drivers were bad; one team literally did not know what the other was doing apparently as well as the language barrier). Tthe big, techical reason ATI OGL drivers are weaker than Nvidia is that they have parts of the FireGL (professional based apps) code still in them and anyone who is knowledegable about the industry knows that professional rednering apps are much slower than gaming applications because of the precise nature of the work. Ergo, ATI has been using drivers that are supposed to be slower to power their gaming cards and that is the real reason they aren't as fast as Nvidia's who specialize and separate professional apps and gaming apps with regard to their OGL drivers. Also, OGL would basically be just for professional apps if it wasn't for John Carmack constantly promoting OGL in all of his and ID Software's games. OGL was on the way out until Doom III came on the scene and will now keep going strong because of this. From what I have read, OGL is actually a faster rendering method and can do a lot of the things DirectX can do (Pixel Shaders; Vertex Shaders; Bumpmapping; etc), but the real reason it isn't as used as much for gaming is because Microsoft pushed DirectX for development purposes since it is a unified language and most devs adopted it out of compatibility necessity more than anything else (more PCs run Windows than Linux; DirectX is more universal than OGL in that sense because it is integrated into Windows).

Everything you have reported here has been submitted on the Bugs Thread and other threads in this forum. The random crashes are still a mystery. Some say that if you have an ATI card, use the 4.11 drivers and that will solve that problem. Some say it doesn't work. You wil just have to try it for yourself. NPC Party alignment is a big topic as well. Numerous posters have reported the exact same bug and there is currently no known cause or cure. There is a patch coming... Hopefully, very soon... That will hopefully addresses what are major, gamestopping issues if in fact these are game related and not hardware (video card) or driver related.

Hmm. Well, it was worth a shot. Sorry, Jackula. I have no idea what the problem is. I suppose you could: 1) Re-Install the game (save your Saves folder). 2) Re-Install the latest Nvidia Drivers. 3) Re-Install DirectX 9c. (Then run the DirectX tests; make sure everything is enabled) 4) Do a virus scan of your system to make sure it isn't infected. 5) Go into your BIOS and make sure all your AGP settings are set up correctly. Other than that... I don't know what else to suggest.

All I meant was is that compared to console games... PC games are released in unfinished and unoptimized states simply because publishers know that gamers will wait for a patch (and that factor itself is what has kept this industry afloat in my humble opinion; if games could not be patched I bet you consoles would flat out destroy PC game sales even more than they do now because there comes a point when even the most tech savy "geek" says enough-is-enough) and have no other choice. Yes. Smart and savy gamers (consumers) who know their product and know this field (as far as a hobby goes) know not to buy something at launch as with most new products as there will inevitably be problems... But the vast majority of us (gamers), even the tech savy ones, still rush out and buy half-finished products to get our "fix"... Gaming fix... And this is why there really are no "standards" in the sense that, as an analogy, you may be a gear head (really into cars), but you'd never rush out to get the latest BMW 2006, if BMW had repeatedly produced cars that only started half the time and were missing things like the brakes for instance... And BMW itself wouldn't last long in the car industry as well (all legal and safety obligations aside) due to sheer negative word-of-mouth... Yet how many times do certain publishers and developers put out crappy, unfinished games, GET a lot of negative feedback from gamers... Yet still turn these obscene profits? Because there is no standard this industry (to my limited knowledge) is held to in terms of quality assurance other than products can't destroy your PC (physically or otherwise),or harm you in any way (physically or otherwise). Why is this? I know this is a multi-faceted topic and doesn't have one concrete answer... But it's getting worse and worse because the PC Games market is rapidly giving way to the console market because a good 90-95% of the time the games that are released do work out of the box... No tweaking of a system (console) needed... As well as the ease of use of just popping in the DVD -- not even installing the game -- Hitting a few buttons and then you're off and playing. I also realize that, as you and others know, consoles are a specific set of hardware so developers know what to expect once that game is loaded onto that particular platform and there should be no surprises or compatibility issues. I understand that. However, I also think part of why the PC games industry is allowed to get away with putting out unfinished products is that they often fall back on this excuse that there are infinite number of hardware configurations, so they can't possibly test them all... When they don't really need to test every single one (impossible), but at least need to test the game for the flaws we are finding in KOTOR 2 that should be obvious for anyone playing the game on any large amount of time and on a variety of systems (low to high-end). Crashes to Desktops, the workbench losing upgraded items, scripts and cut-scenes not triggering correctly, slow frame rates in areas that shouldn't be that graphically intense even on low to mid-range systems, the Swoop Racing bug, the Pazak Den glitch where you don't actually play the female T'Welik yet she says you beat her, etc, etc. Why are there no standards to any of this? Would GM allow a car that had no doors to roll off the assembly line? How about a car with brakes that only work some of the time, but not all of the time? Of course not. Part of the reason is because there ARE standards for that industry both internal and external (National Transportation Safety Board) as well as state and federal guidelines (cars without doors are dangerous!). A car is a product. So is a video game (software)? Where are the regulations in terms of QUALITY (vs. safety)? And before you start screaming that this is a Liberal stance to get the government involved since most Conservatives (I don't know what you are) can't stand "big government"... Tell me what else is going to change this industry? This whole "police itself" thing (for publishers and devs) isn't working or we'd have games that work better out of the box and be released in better shape. In addition, I also realize it is the publishers who are mostly to blame for the state of the industry right now (right or wrong). They are the ones who hold are the cards and if they say "jump"... Release the game early in an unfinished state... Devs have no choice if they aren't established and want to keep working and have to say, "how high?" So, my point in all of this is that I believe there needs to be more strict QA standards outside the publishers (and devs) established because it doesn't matter if you are a tech savy "geek", or a person who just wants to play a game on their Dell Dimension (if they have the right specs of course) in their spare time. Both are equally important and if this industry had more standards it would benefit both types of consumers in the long run by (hopefully) regulating and fostering better products from the start when they are released.

It is "officially" a glitch. Meaning, others have reported the workbench doesn't retain upgraded items once you leave it. I have experienced this myself as well with not just lightsabers, but other weapons and armor as well.

The only real fix right now... If they don't include it in the patch... Is to get the KOTORI/II Save Game Editiing Tool (v.309) and change the Boolean SWOOP_FORFEIT parameter from 1 to 0. This is why you aren't placing in any of the swoop races. Somehow, the code keeps resetting it to "1" and that means every time you race you (your PC) is forfeiting the race even if you (the real you) are not. Also, I agree that this game should have never have made it out of QA for the XBox, let alone the PC version. Low-quality mono music, FMVs, gameplay balance issues (too easy, or characters can't hit anything) , CTDs, engine optimization problems (Dantooine slowdowns), half the endings cut, sidequests cut (Droid Factory), etc... But blame LA for putting an impossible release date on Obsidian that they had to know they (Obsidian) couldn't meet in time and deliver a truly finished and polished product.

You know what I *think* may be the problem? I think KOTOR II actually has a DX9c Shader warper working along with the OpenGL renderer. What this means is that you are going to need a DX9 card. The 4400 (I have one; great card) is not a DX9 card. It is a DX 8 card. This *might* be why it isn't rendering the character model. I know it is a long shot... But the reason I am coming to this conclusion is that I started the game on a FX 5900 Ultra because of Nvidia's improved OGL performance... But then switched back to my ATI 9800 Pro XT and the game runs BETTER than it does on the Nvidia card (and the game is OpenGL is my point). This is what is leading me to believe there are DX9 features being used. In fact, I think all the fog -- like the gas in Peragus Mining Tunnels and the Jekk Jekk 'Tar -- Are DX9 Shaders (particles). Like I said, I am just making an educated guess off the top of my head and could be totally wrong. But from deduction and what I see in the difference of perofmance from my 5900 to the 9800 this is the conclusion I am coming too.

And I suppose this makes you... What? Superior? I know a lot of about comptuers and custom build them and know how to optimize them to get the maximum amount of performance as well... But none of that matters if the game itself, the coding, isn't optimized. Look at "Vampire: Bloodlines". Look at the PC version of Halo. Both those games just were not coded properly and can bring AMD64 4000+ PCs to their knees with memory leaks and bad shader implementations because they aren't optimized right just like KOTOR II. My point is that it doesn't matter if you are a casual PC gamer or some hardcore "leet" PC gamer who thinks consoles are for dummies. However, it is relevant in that PC games have no standards when they are released and it shouldn't matter if you are some "geek" who knows the inside and out of a PC. The game should WORK and well relatively well, but that is not the case these days, so everyone, regardless of their PC skills, suffers.

That is only half-true. Copy protection usually prevents one from installing a game initially instead of preventing it from running after the initial install. If it isn't going to install, it isn't going to let itself be installed and then not run. That makes no sense. If you are referring to compatibility problems with virtual drives and other things, then yes. That is a possibility, but again, if it isn't going to install in the first place that is usually where the problem lies in most cases. Also, there is this myth that pirated games can't be patched and or won't run properly. Not only can these games be patched, but some in fact run better than retail versions because of the fact the copy protection has been taken out that easts up resources in the background and slows game processes down.

Change: [Game Options] BodyVariation=0 -------> BodyVariation=9 See if that helps.

I currently have Visas wearing the miner uniform you pick up on Peragus since it gives her more protection than her clothes, yet still allows her Force powers to be used. I will post a screenshot if you want. I can also outfit here with any other uniform/armor and everything changes EXCEPT the veiled head model (because it has a veil that has motion in it; the flap in the back).

I'm not trying to be an ass and just argue for argument's sake... But every "cut-scene" with these characters is an game engine cut-scene and not a FMV. Therefore, they COULD do what we want and that is have their appearance change to reflect the equipment/clothes/weapons we have on them. This is what the game does now with your PC as well as others in any other cut-scene that features these two and any other equipable NPC/PC...

You might have to create it yourself

WHERE exactly did you fight the Handmaiden the third time? Was it ON Telos at the Hidden Academy (I think you can challenge her before you rescue Atton and Kriea)? Or was it on another planet on board the Ebon Hawk? I *think* -- from what others have said -- It *may* be a problem with fighting the Handmaiden while you are still ON Telos. I fought the Handmaiden for the third while on Nar Shaddaa and didn't have the crash. I am also using an ATI 9800 and the game actually runs BETTER than it did on my Nvidia FX 5900 Ultra. Try fighting her for the third time someplace other than Telos if you are currently fighting her there (or fight her AFTER you release Atton and Kriea) and see if this helps.

You also might want to talk to Vogga the Hutt at the Docks. I think that is what triggers the Exchange/Visquis plotline to continue as they are directly related to one another as well as the Mira/Evil Wookie plotline depending on whether you are LS or DS.

Halo for PC has Shader Optimization problems that Microsoft and Bungie never corrected once the PC release was out. This is the main reason why it runs so slow even on top-of-the-line rigs, regardless of video card. Also, people are forgetting that just because the KOTOR games graphics aren't on part with HL-2 or Far Cry that they should automatically get 100 FPS. People forget that not only is the engine rendering the graphics, but also running multiple AI strings for the NPCs on each level as well as combat mathematics, etc, etc. For example, the Refugee Camp on Nar Shaddaa. It is a huge area with multiple (vertical) levels along with about 50 NPCs in total all with AI functions associated with them like patrolling certain zones, triggering dialoge choices, combat, etc. KOTOR I and II are CPU intensive games more than anything else. Yes. The game has optimization problems that need to be fixed. I am not disputing that. However, the main point I am trying to make is that just because the graphics look like 2001 graphics that doesn't mean you should automatically expect 100 FPS and realize where the possible slowdowns are occuring on various systems.

A much easier way to extract the file is just open it with Winzip and then extract the .dll file. Right-Click and select "Open". A menu will pop up and you can open it with Winzip if you have it installed (7-Zip may or may not work; Winrar would probably work as well).

Here is what is interesting. I decided NOT to fight the Last Handmaiden while on Telos (or any of her sisters) just because I was wanting to get on to the next planet. So, I released my crew and we flew to Nar Shaddaa. We did some of the side quests and progressed the main plot (looking for the Jedi Master) and while waiting for my "prestige" to anger the Exchange, I took my crew (Atton; Visas) back to the Ebon Hawk, sparred with the Handmaiden three times (in a row) and said I was going to teach her to be a Jedi. This is where the cut-scene is supposed to play as normal in terms of her deciding to be a Jedi. What I am wondering is if a possible workaround is to not fight the Handmainden(s) while ON Telos. Wait until you are on another planet and then do it because it worked flawlessly for me this way. There might be something wrong with the Telos scripts that is preventing this transition to cut-scene and then back to the game

That is a major bug (of course). What is supposed to happen is a cut scene with Atris expressing her concern that The Handmaiden has turned away from her teaching and becoming a Jedi as well as betraying her sisters. It should then take you right back into your game (wherever you are; Ebon Hawk most likely).

Definitely go with an Nvidia card for the KOTOR games. They are OpenGL and historically, Nvidia does much better in OGL than ATI... Especially, since there is a known error in the Vertex Buffer Object coding regarding ATI cards and the KOTOR engines.