Master Dahvernas

This thread may shed some light on why you didn't like it: http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=31221

I think it definitely depends on who you want in your party and for how long. The first time I played through I did: -Peragus -Telos (Bao-Dur; Atris Academy - Picked up Handmaiden) -Dantooine -Korriban -Nar Shadda (Mira; Goto) -Onderon (Mandalore) -Dux -Onderon 2 -Dantooine (Jedi Master Meeting; leads to Kriea finale) It was good because after Nar Shadda I had a Jedi Sentinel in Atton and Jedi Guradian in Handmaiden and was just laying waste to things on Onderon and Dux which is good when you have to split your parties up (one Jedi on both teams)... But I also had Goto, HK-41 and T3-M4 and had no use for them. This time I am going to do: -Nar Shadda (Mira; Goto) -Dantooine -Onderon -Korriban -Onderon 2 -Dantooine This way I should have Mira and Goto and hopefully HK-47 rebuilt as I want to use these characters this time around and see if I can turn Mira into a Jedi as well as just gain influence with Goto (even as LS) and HK-47 for the Hell of it.

All good replies, everyone. I think Aurora hit the nail on the head... For me... When she made her Buffy and Angel comparsions with regards to their final seasons and overall themes. It seems to me that TSL is about sacrifice... But it is also saying sacrifice is basically worthless because we (humans; Jedi; Sith; The Galaxy) are all screwed regardless of what we do and we are all just pawns of the all mighty Force. I know this isn't a new perspective... Especially, for the SW universe... But I think the big problem is the writers never really asked themselves does this make for an interesting plot for a video game? I don't think it does. I think it is too cerebral -- to be blunt -- And this is why I said I think the storyline (even with all of its flaws) may be too sophisticated for the SW universe and this is ultimately why it just does not feel like a SW story darker theme, or not. And since this may be the underlying theme, or foundation the story is based on, then I think this is ultimately the crux of why the story really doesn't work any way you slice it if you view it as not working (some do). Granted, I don't want every SW RPG to be a black-and-white story of redemption like KOTOR was either. However, I think who(m)ever writes the next one should find a better way to balance trying to be unique and original with still keeping with what SW is at its core (Swashbuckling, Sci-Fi Fantasy) Is this possible? Maybe it is not. But I think TSL, in my humble opinion, is possibly a cautionary tale in trying to be original and unique and possibly going too far as a result. Also, I know we all are entitled to our subjective opinions and that is fine. But from someone who has been paid to write screenplays for production companies... The "professional" part of semi-professional... When I look at TSL as a whole (story)... There are things that leap out at me that as much as people try and defend, just should have never made it into the game in the current form they did because they are in fact plot holes and leaps in logic that you can't just "ignore" even if you just want to play the game. As I said, it is this lack of polish you (me in this case) notice if you are paid to deliver stories on a similar level, or are just a fan of well-written stories in general. Anyway, keep those thoughts coming

Zilod: I think you brought up a point that I was kind of addressing, but not directly and that is I believe there was no real change for the main PC... And ultimately, this, coupled with the "bad" and cut ending(s) is why a lot of people don't like this game (especially, the end). Like you said, you don't have to have an obvious change, "zero to hero", but I will argue that the main PC... The protagonist... Doesn't change that much in terms of his personal goals/demons which is just as important as saving the galaxy (or destroying it) and in some ways, even more vital to having a good RPG experience and why we do play RPGs and watch movies and read books in the first place. Yes. The Exile starts the game with no force connection, or close connection to others and slowly gains those things back... But to me, that is more of an bi-product of his/her journey and it should not be the journey if that makes any sense? I think kbned brought this up as well. It seems, from my perspective, that a lot of the more deep, meaingful philospohies and ideologies that Obsidian wanted to address came off more as filler than real, serious contemplations and interactions, and I do think that it hurts the game in certain ways and makes it come off pretentious in a lot of instances even if that was never the intent. I realize this is a game... a console game to be exact... And games have their limits as they aren't books or movies. However, I just felt that perhaps Obsidian wanted to try and address some of the "larger" ideas like what defines a Jedi/Sith (The Force? How they use it? Their weapons? How they use them?), but really couldn't decide on any clear "path" stance and instead took the "easy" way out and basically said there is no path and it is up to the gamer to draw their own conclusions. Normally, I am all for open-ended, intellectual dissections like this... But I just feel it was more of a case of there was no set ideology/philospohy/message that Obsidian wanted to convey, so they just let everyone else decide for themselves because that is much easier to do than actually figure one out. An example of this is the Beggar on Nar Shadda cut-scene. I know the narrative purpose is for Kriea to teach you even small actions can have a ripple effect (good or bad), but I also think this kind of second-guessing doesn't really serve that much of a point in the game other than to shed doubt on your PC and confuse him/her as to what to do... But ultimately, it becomes moot because in order to play the game, you must choose sides and make decisions that are "absolutes" and what Kriea is trying to teach you is that you're damned if you do, damned if you don't... But so what? I think this is what bothers me and others about some of these so-called "deep" scenes. It bothers me because even as a writer, I believe, you should have certain set of beliefs/ideals/themes/philosophies that you want to address in your work (and all human beings inevitably will) and stick to them because it will be more evident and make the work come off more... Confident?... In itself and won't seem so wishy-washy is the best word to describe it. This is why the Nar Shadda Beggar scene almost comes off as nothing but filler and very pretentious to some... Because in the end it really does NOT have a point to either the bigger picture, or the immediate act of either giving the Beggar money, or not. What I think happened with TSL is that Obsidian tried to "bridge the gap" between the absolute light and dark sides of the Force that are presented in the books and movies and present the Gray side of the Force... And I don't know if that is what this particular universe is really equipped for to be honest. I know the KOTOR games, the EU and the Movies are all separate entities... But the basic premise and base-philosophy that Geoge Lucas created the SW Universe on is what should bind them altogether and I just feel TSL, while bold, possibly may be too "realistic" and too "sophisticated" in a lot of ways and this is why a lot of SW fans don't think this game is a SW game or story. As I said, I do like the story... But the way it is executed does have some things that I view as sloppy and amateurish "from a certain point of view", but on the other hand, I am wondering if the story really is not a SW story itself and perhaps this is why I and others are having a harder time "buying" some of these (flawed) executions more than others. Is it the (nature of) the story... Or is it how the story is executed? I just feel when I look at TSL from a writing and storytelling perspective... It is just not a polished story in my opinion and maybe it goes beyond that and that is why I started this thread to get different takes on things and see if during the course of our diliberation I might be able to see what "really" is bothering I and possibly others don't really like TSL as a story.

Good for Guardians/Mauraders/Weapon Masters who like to just hack up people at close range

All good responses, guys/gals. True. But I think you said it more succinctly than I ever could and that is trying to design the PC's personality is (was) a bad design choice because it goes against what an RPG is to a big degree. I know you are taking on the "role" of whatever main character you play and that's fine. However, I thought a lot of the Exile's movitations/explantions/dialogue choices were very forced and didn't really give the player any real freedom in terms of playing the role if that makes sense? The Exile is a war veteran. Okay. He is trying to forget the terrible things he's done. Okay. But the general tone of how he actually speaks during the game is almost Sith/DS like and I really don't think that it fits his/her given situation as a lot of war veterans just don't speak that much at all if we are going to go for total realism, but I digress. This is what I meant about whenever darker stories emerge, the author(s) always concentrate on the little details and forget the bigger picture. They wanted to make the Exile a bad ass, no-holds-barred anti-hero... But then forget to put as much emphasis into the story that anti-hero is put in in my humble opinion and that is one of my bigger peeves with the story. I brought this up on another thread and a lot of the justifcation was because it would make the PC character just as "darksided" as Kriea was? Okay... From a strictly story point of view... This is what I had the biggest problem with. It insults both the main PC character's intelligence and essentially the gamer's since you pretty much know Kriea is evil the minute you meet her... But due to game mechanics, can't get rid of her because they built the entire story around her. Call me shallow, but she gives off that old-woman, evil Witch vibe from Hansel & Gretel and you know the father away from her you are the better. Also, I am all for unothodox storytelling... But this is just weak "story-cheating" to be blunt and I know I am not the only one who noticed this (I am just not afraid to post it). Don't get me wrong. I actually like this story better than the first KOTOR, believe it or not. But it is obvious, from my perspective, cut content aside... The story itself needs a more solid emotional core to anchor the main PC and give him/her more of a real reason for doing everything because even if it is manipulation by Kreia... There should still be a sense of working toward a bigger goal and I never really got that with this one when I played through it (and am replaying as well). And of course, it all falls apart in the third act once Kriea turns and a lot of the cut content reveals itself and you are left with a truncated ending and (literally) dangling subplots that have no resolution to them.

You know... THIS may be why we seem to have two distinct camps that either say the game is too easy... Or the game is too hard and it very well may be BOTH because it isn't CONSISTENT due to what you have discovered. I had my suspicions that it might be due to certain attribute, skill, feats, armor, items, weapon combos... But your post, if entirely accurate, confirms this to some degree (the % damage off items). I too invested in in a lot of over and underlays and yet my party members still take damage whenever there are things they obviously should be immuned to at low levels. Hmm...

Force Aura isn't a particularly useful power... But I do give it to Kriea and whomever my Jedi NPCs may be at the time just to have some "buffer" in case the enemies have high hit probablilities. Master Speed is a MUST. The combination of MS, Master Flurry with high dex, high strength means you can take down even the strongest of opponents in one, two swipes. Get the battles over quick and easy

I know there are a lot of threads about this topic, but this topic is going to be a little different because I am a semi-professional [fiction] writer and I am going to analyze three main factors where I think Obsidian really did drop the ball... Regardless of the content that was cut. You can view this thread and the things as I say as arrogant, conceded, and whatever you like and that is fine. But I would hope that you at least read what I have to say before you pronounce judgement on my opinion because I feel what I say here is accurate in a lot of respects and I don't do it to just "bash" OE. I do it because there are general flaws in this story's logic that shouldn't be there, but the player is forced to just "overlook" in order to play the game and that should never be the case in any form of narrative entertainment in my opinion. With that said... 1) Your Character Does Not Have Amnesia This is one of the major problems with TSL from the start because while the Exile doesn't have amnesia... You, as the player, are forced to play the game as if you did and that, right there, is why this game feels disjointed because I don't think Obsidian properly balanced discovering your past with living in your present. The best example of this is the fact that the Exile, in no uncertain terms, has PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) that is amplified 10 fold because of his/her Force Bonds to living beings and what he did on Malachor V... Yet it is as if he has completely forogtten everything when we meet him when in reality that is the one few things he would still be aware of and desparately tryhing to forget more than anything else. The fact that the gamer has to suspend their disbelief that he/she has already forgotten such life altering events is such an illogical and weak assumption on the storytellers part and is not one that the foundation, the player's suspension of disbelief, the game should soley rely on in my book. This flaw is compounded in that the Exile has no "visions" or nightmares (flashbacks) of what he did during the war like Revan did in the original KOTOR. This only makes this assumption even harder to swallow as the main player character. Also, where this is really evident is when you finally reach Malachor V late in the game. You have no recollection of the Shadow Generator... Which is highly illogical as that probably is the source of your PTSD and guilt for all the lives that were lost becuase you gave the order to fire it... Yet this is the first time in the game it is brought up AND you still didn't remember this through out your whole journey?! This is what I meant when I mentioned earlier that having such illogical assumptions and sloppy executions makes revelations like the SG look amateurish and "Deus Ex Machina" and it detracts from the immersiveness and overall quality of the story being told. 2) Most of The Party Members Have No Motivation to Join You and Vice Versa I realize that this is an RPG and you have to make some sacrifices in order to have a game... But I found that almost everyone aside from Kriea, Goto and Visis... Had no real incentive or motives to want to tag along with you. Let alone, the fact the Exile is trying to forget and realistically, a lot of war veterans who would be as severly troubled as the Exile do not go seeking out others because they need the isolation (the stories of Vietnam and Middle-East vets living in the middle of deserts like Wyoming and the forests of the Pacific Northwest aren't made up; they feel at home in these places as long as none one is around because they are ultra-paranoid). Again, my suspension of disbelief as a gamer was stretched very thin in this respect because it just does not make a lot of sense to the point you can't just consciously overlook it to some degree. Atton: Who is similar to the Exile in trying to forget his past... Would not just automatically ally himself with two Jedi considering he was a Sith Assassin. You can argue it was because he had no choice and wanted to get off Peragus... But realistically, he probably would ditch you and Kriea the first chance he got... Let alone probably try and sell you to the Exchange because that is who he is. His "redemption" (if you play LS) comes out of nowhere and feels incredibly forced and cliched. Even his explanation as to who he was (Sith Assassin) gives no real motivation as to why he wants to all of a sudden become a "good guy" and become a Jedi if you have enough influence in him. It is really ashame because I think OE could have avoided the cliched "troubled soul who only needs to see the light" storyline and actually had Atton be the betrayer, or just stay covertly "evil". I think that would have actually been a more fresh and unexpected approach in my opinion. It would be great if he was actually a Sith Lord and his whole "brooding boy who wants to make amends" act was just that: An act, so that he could get closer to the Exile and Kriea and either turn them on each other and or kill both of them... And what would be even better and add more depth to gameplay is if Kriea *knew* Atton was a Sith Lord in hiding and she tried to counter his manipulations with her own. You'd basically have a struggle for the Exile's "soul" going on between these two characters and I think that could have been a much more interesting take the light and dark sides of the force as well as the gray area in between that this game seems to want to address, but just doesn't really get into for some reason. I think if OE had gone with a more unorthodox storyline like this that it would have made the Influence system even more important since there would be more at stake when the revelation is made that Atton is in fact a Sith Lord because then the way you influenced your party members would determine who stands with or against Atton, Kriea and yourself. As far as the other party members... Mira has almost no point (or even backstory) and is just there to give the Exile another soldier (LS); Harrar if you go DS... The Handmaiden (m) and Disciple (fm) are the same way. Their only real purpose is to give you more "followers" and to try and get the point across that you are a natural born leader. As I said, only Kreia, Goto and Visas have any real motivations (and backstory) as to why they would consciously want to seek you out and tag along as each has their own agenda... And are even up front about those agendas in a lot of ways... And are just using the Exile to further those goals. 3) Darker Do Not Mean No Emotionally Satisfying Endings It is an unfortunate staple in the entertainment industry that whenever a story is reported to be darker, it usually means the producers are going to use this as an excuse to cocentrate more on addressing issues and themes that are mostly overlooked by other stories... But it also means the emphasis is more on mood and atmosphere and little details (dialogue; setting; actions) and not the overall story as a whole. TSL continues this trend, unfortunately. Yes. The game is more ambiguous than the first. The tone is much more gray in terms of the LS and DS of the force than KOTOR. However, being ambiguous is not an excuse for not delivering a solid and emotionally satisfying ending. This is the trap that TSL has fallen into because while the Exile acts more like a normal person in terms of his responses to some of the NPC dialogues... The actual ending of the game is where it all falls apart and the player is left with a sense of emptiness and disappointment as if the journey they just went on (storywise) was for nothing. This is bad if a movie, or novel has this kind of ending, but inexplicably bad for an RPG where the emotional satisfaction at the end for the player having done everything is the overall goal of the game from the very start. TSL fails miserably in this regard and it is the worst possible failure it can have among the others I've already listed. This is the main reason why a lot of people don't "get" or flat out don't like the ending. There is no emotional closure, nor any emotional satisfaction for completing the game. In addition, I realize that the original ending(s) were cut. However, at the same time, after reading the cut material... I still think TSL suffers from not having any real focus (for the player) and that even if the cut content was put back in... The *main narrative of the game is still lacking in terms of having any real emotional core and forces the player to make illogical leaps to enjoy the game and give any real meaning why you are doing any of the things you have been doing up until the end. *Only the subplots would have been nicely wrapped up. For example, the Goto-Remote stand off would have been resolved when HK-47 bursts in and kicks Goto ass... But this is reliant on the Droid Factory and M3_47(?) planet being put back into the game since this severs Gotos link over all of his HK droids. So, there is my take on things. Like I said, you can completely disregard what I have to say, call me a "whinner" or whatever you want. But I think these are the main reasons you are seeing a lot of posts that are confused about the ending, other plot shortcomings and storytelling flaws that crop up through out the game regardless of what content was cut to meet the ship deadline.

I have to agree. Some of the better offensive Force Powers... Like Choke, Kill, Wound and others were completely "nerfed" and you'd always get a Save... Even against weak opponets like Cannocks and Bounty Hunters. What's the use in using Force Whirlwind where it doesn't do what it is supposed to do (Stun and suspend the target in the air)? The only one that becomes *too* powerful and allows you to spam it to no end at the higher levels is Force Storm. You can literally wipe out entire rooms of Sith Assasins without moving a finger. Unfortunately, this gets really boring toward the end because as you know, that is all Traya and Scion throw at you as make your way through the Dark Academy... But all you have to do is equip Force Shield (for melee attacks) and then spam Force Lighting and you can literally walk through six, seven waves of these guys with absolutely NO health penalties and not even FP penalties since by now you are most likely a level 26+ Prestiege Class and can regenerate during combat if LS. Talk about unbalanced...

There is an "Instant Death" sabers mod on PCGamemods that changes all the sabers to one-hit kills. It is interesting that the person who made this is probably looking at it from an third-person, action game perspective versus those who look at KOTOR as an RPG with D20 rules.

It's not a glitch as confrontations with criminals and Exchange members are viewed (by the game) as LS deeds since you are in fact taking out bad guys. You can do this to about any of the gang bosses and other Exchange bosses like Lupok on Citadel Station -- You can actually kill him and Luxa and not take a DS hit because you are helping innocents (the Ithorians). The only evil people you can't kill are Jana Lorna (Czerka Corp.) and of course, Goto.

What is even worse is that you can pick up items that essentially do the same job some of these force powers do like the Force Helmet (for LS); Sith Mask (DS); Force immunity Belt and a bunch of other equippables.

You're asking for culpability in admitting that the consumers ARE justified in their "anger" at having paid $50 for what is... In every sense of the words... An unfinished game. The best way to not be culpable for anything is to not acknowledge a problem exists. Ergo, just closing and deleting a thread with no explanation is the quickest, most efficient way to do this. I've seen this happen on tons of forums for tons of games where it is obvious that the fans have a right to demand certain things for the money they paid... And the devs, Community Managers/Liasons, moderators and usually the higher ups (if it is a Publisher's owned board like LA for instance) just get sick of hearing it so they burry it. We live in the age of instant communication. Gone are the days of recycling written letters and filtering Customer-Service calls. If consumers are angry and companies put up forums like this for feedback... They're going to get it whether they really want to hear it or not.

The big reason it makes no sense is that there are a LOT of leaps in logic that just do not make much sense, regardless of the content that was cut. For example: -Goto needs to find you, but doesn't want to hurt you... Yet sends every bounty hunter in the known universe after you to KILL you?! -Kriea manages to take down THREE Jedi Masters (Counselors) in one blow?! -You pretty much know Kriea is "evil" the minute you meet her... But you can't do anything about it because without her, there is no story. That is a BIG leap of faith and pretty shaky foundation to build the rest of the story one and almost insults the gamers intelligence to a degree. -You're (under Revan) the swon enemy of the Mandalorians... Yet they simply "forgive and forget" and decide to ally themself with you on Duxn without even trying to kill you?! There are a lot of logic lapses through out the game and I think these are the biggest complaints because the game just does not really make much sense if you look at it from "the big picture" like Kriea keeps urging you to in certain points. What I think TSL suffers from is that it has no solid foundation aside from looking for the Jedi Masters and tries to address to many things at once and because of the rushed deadline, the really interesting things were left OUT and we are left with what amounts to, in my opinion, a rough first draft of the game's story regardless of what side you play.

Sorry but HK is more entertianing and more usefull than T3. :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not in this real life instance, however. Like I said... The CM has to be tough... But they also can't just completely ignore the fanbase to promote the corporations agenda(s) which is why I used HK-47 as an example because that is exactly how this situtaion turned out. Instead of getting to the real causes of the problems and trying to find common groud, "HK" just fired up his blaster and completely destroyed any real hope of bringing the two "sides" together just to get his paycheck and it didn't have to happen that way (Also, the real reason is the person they did hire was immature; this was their first full-time job right out of college and I knew then it wasn't going to work out; This position needs the Wisdom of Yoda and the hand of Mace Windu to be effective if you catch my drift?)

It clearly states that OE is considering hiring a CM (Community Manager) and I think it would be the best thing any game company does IF the right person(s) are chosen and it is a PAID position (that gives the chosen person a real incentive to do their job). A CM should not only have a lot of internet, e-mail and gaming experience (obivously), but they also have to demonstrate that they can straddle the line between corporate responsibility (keeping order; promoting company PR and policies; etc.) and fanboi/fangurl because often times those two things are in direct conflict. It would be a Public Relations position most likely. For example, I was offered a position at one of the UBISoft Forums... But declined because I just could not, in good conscience, promote the (then) current treatment of the long standing fanbase for a certain game that was being completely disrespected and left in the dark with no words on patches and what amounted to very condescending and insulting "interaction" and treatment between the fans and the developers when the devs did post (which was very rarely). Someone else got the job eventyually... But they made the situation worse and actually widened the gap between the developers and the fans and as a result, the community for the game has a bad taste left in their mouth, does not trust UBISoft anymore, and swears they will not buy the next game in the series that is going to be released shortly... And all of that could have been avoided if they had just picked the right person for the job is my main point. To use a KOTOR metaphor... They picked HK-47 when T3-M4 would have been a better choice in mediating between the fanbase and the company. And that doesn't mean "T3" just has to roll over and be a corporate "meatbag" either since we all know T3 can actually be pretty resourceful when the chips are down. What I am trying to get at is the CM would (should) be able to balance their love of games and wanting to get paid every two weeks to find a way to where those often conflicting elements can co-exist peacefully given the realities of the pc games industry.

I actually think it may be a bug... BUT it may be a bug that is only evident given certain combinations of Attributes, Skills, Feats, Items, Armors, Weapons and Force Points. This is going to make it extremely hard to nail down and reproduce, but not impossible. I am lead to this conclusion because I have friends who play the game differently than I (they just pick the cool powers and the ones that do more damage and don't really know the D20 rules) and they seem to get the same "error" as well... But then I started thinking that it may not just be my friends lack of ingornace about the games behind-the-scenes calculations and may in fact be a bug IN those calculations that depend on certain factors like I said above and that would mean it is a bug in the code and not just how they are playing. This is why I asked how are you leveling up your characters because if you know how this engine works and what the D&D rules are, you should, do fairly well as a lot of people think the game is actually too easy even on the hardest setting.

There a couple of non Gammorrean guards scattered through out the upper and lower levels leading to Saquish's command room. Kill ALL of them and then the journal will pop up that says you removed all of the guards in Aaida's way and you should tell her that. Or, if you have enough LS points... You can just be an evil bastard, take the DS hit and lie to her that you cleared the way and learn that she gets killed horribly Either way, it ends this subquest and you still get the XP from it.

Revitalize. Force Heal (especially at the higher levels) makes Revitalize worthless because it [Revitalize] drains your own Force Points in order to raise party members from the dead who aren't really "dead" because no one really dies in this game unless EVERYONE in your party dies and that rarely happens in even the biggest of battles (Onderon Palace; Temple on Duxn).

I think there are actually two big factors we have to consider here that are interetwined: 1) This is in fact a video game. Before you go, "Duh!", what I mean is that as a game there are limitations as to what you can and can't simulate in terms of moral and ethical belief systems to where the gamer has a solid foundation on which to base his/her alligance. In this case, it is the Light or Darsk sides of the Force and the resulting consequences that those actions produce. Now, perhaps using someting simplistic as right/wrong, light/dark *is* too simplistic, but that is what the SW universe is based on... And it is easy for gamers who are not SW fans to also pick up on and base their decision on what side of the fence... Er, Force... They want to play. I think the second reason... Making it easier for gamers to quickly choose a path and stick to it... Is why both KOTOR games aren't that "in depth" in terms of realistically portraying some of the issues and belief systems (moral and ethical) they present. As someone said, someone who is truly evil or out for themself isn't just going to come out and say it. These people work behind-the-scenes and manipulate various angles and get others to do their dirty work for them like Kreia and Palpatine in the films. However, there comes a point to where too much "behind-the-scenes stuff" (subtrafuge; lies; manipulation) just won't make for an exciting game and this is in fact why DS players are unfortunately relegated to acting more like thugs and petty thieves than true manipulators of others wills and situations because it just does not make interesting gameplay to be blunt. Especially, for console players who are generally younger and who don't need real, in-depth "moral" choices. On a similar note... 2) I feel the morality of the LS and DS as portrayed in the KOTOR games is just too simplistic for contemporay audiences. I know I just said that console players... Which is where the KOTOR games origins originate... Are statistically younger and need "simple" foundations to play a game like KOTOR, but at the same time, everyone, no matter what their age, is growing up in a time where there isn't any real black-and-white morality anymore and everything is extremely gray, even moreso than in past decades/years. A perfect example is Iraq. Another example is the current President of the United States. These are not simple "black-and-white" issues because there are those who support either of these things, and those who oppose them. Who is right? Who is wrong? I don't want to get into a political debate her, but I think this is a perfect example of the realities that gamers bring to the table (consciously or not) when they play a morality based game like KOTOR I & II and this is why the representations of both the LS and DS may be "outdated" given what is going on with the real world and that is what players like Handel are criticizing as well as those who like to play DS as well. An pefect example of this is that as much as I am against war in real life... I can see the Exile's point of view that the Mandelorians were a legitimate, agressive threat and probably would have started for the core worlds if Revan and others didn't take action and stop them at the Outer-Rim. In fact, since it is a game, I played the part of me going to war with Revan free of my own free will because I *thought* it was the right thing to do (the greater good; stop an agressive enemy who shows no signs of wanting to compromise peacefully). This gets back to what I was saying regarding the LS and DS moralities possibly being too simplistic in 2005, becaue the very premise (the Exile's story) really doesn't fit in with how the SW universe was originally presented by George Lucas and this may be why a lot of people are having a hard time with the game's storyline and saying that it doesn't belong in, or "feel" like the SW universe... And they are right to some degree. I think it is bold for Obsidian to try and be more "realistic", but at the same time, I think that may be an impossible feat because SW was never *supposed* to be realistic in the sense of addressing moral hypocracy, the good guys don't always win, shades of gray, etc... Only absolutes like Evil Sith Lords, Jedi, and Dark Jedi. Anyway, that is my take on it and why I think Handel and others (including me) are having a hard time with the portrayl of both LS and DS in this game since it is almost as if the game itself is questioning those two absolute systems... But not in a good way, but more of a limited, gameplay mechanic way that can't be changed without desnging a new game that includes more in-depth decision making.

Not to be an ass... But this game is DONE. It's finished. OE has moved on. They have said so in various e-mails that have been posted in the General Discussion Forum as well as the Spoilers Forum for any that are interested. We are not going to see the cut-endings restored (at least not by OE or LA; modders may do it, but I have my doubts to be honest), or get a high quality soundtrack, or get better FMVs. However, as a result, as a consumer I also have the right not to recommend this game or NWN2 to anyone else who is an D&D RPG fan as well and if that ultimately sees OE go under like Troika that will be a shame, but the point is I am being a realist and accepted that TSL is just not as good a game as the first one mostly because it was never a fully finished product and never will be.

Not to be an ass... But this game is DONE. It's finished. OE has moved on. They have said so in various e-mails that have been posted in the General Discussion Forum as well as the Spoilers Forum for any that are interested. We are not going to see the cut-endings restored (at least not by OE or LA; modders may do it, but I have my doubts to be honest), or get a high quality soundtrack., or get better FMVs. However, as a result, as a consumer I also have the right not to recommend this game or NWN2 to anyone else who is an D&D RPG fan as well and if that ultimately sees OE go under like Troika that will be a shame, but the point is I am being a realist and accepted that TSL is just not as good a game as the first one mostly because it was never a fully finished product and never will be.

This may be due to a couple of reasons: 1) How are you leveling up your attributes, skills and feats? The key to the KOTOR games and Jedi is to always level up the main player character's offensive melee (lightsaber) attacks to Master Flurry because it lets you dish out two attacks per turn/round and is almost always guranteed to hit and if you give your Jedi NPCs like Kriea Speed and Force Valor and set her AI on Jedi Support, when she uses this power, you can effectively deal *four times the amount of damage PER ROUND as well has have a high defense. *This of course depends on whether or not you have a high Dexterity or Strength since the modifiers for your attacks (and misses) depend on the higher of the two. As a result, when first creating a Jedi, Strength and Dex should always almost always be maxed out from the start, thus making them good with the melee weapons (even non lightsaber) and harder to hit. 2) Others have reported a bug that appears to manifiest itself in what you are experiencing: Your characters, no matter how well built, just cannot seem to hit anything and miss a good 90% of the time when they shouldn't if they were properly leveled up with the corresponding attributes, feats and skills. It might be an actual bug since it is inconsistent and seemingly effects certain players, but not others. 3) As suggested, you might want to travel to another planet first and gain experience with non-combat related quests. I recommend Nar Shadda and the Refugee camp. There are side-quests that can net you 1000 XP if you complete them correctly (LS or DS).

The AK-47 is one of the most used fire-arms on the planet. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I figured out Go-To (or Goto) was "it" the minute it floated it's big fat spherical form onto my ship. It is one of the funniest characters in the game in terms of its warped morality... Even moreso than Kreia... And sometimes its fun to replay segments of the game with HK-47, Goto and T3-M4 as your entire party because you're like this Jedi with a personal Droid Army and they bicker when it comes to some of the actions you do (LS or DS decisions).