Master Dahvernas

This is definitely an instance where the devs should have a pop-up that tells you that you can re-add party members. I did the exact same thing my first time through. I thought it was a "forced" sequence with just your PC, so I didn't bother to look at my Party Selection screen. I later found out, after coming to these forums, that you are SUPPOSED to have your party with you because right before you kill the lead Merc, he says something like, "Is this the best you could come up with to save you? I guess we will just have to kill THEM (not him/her) as well". That is what tipped me off that I had missed something. Either that, or this game was even more bugged than we thought

I think some of these Force Powers would be okay (Revitalize; Beast/Mind Trick) IF the developers made you use them in specific scenarios. I know people would complain they hate being "forced" to use a certain power... But usually, in any game, whenever your character gains a new weapon/power/ability there is a specific reason for it and not just to give you more options (in the game mechanic sense). As we've been discussing... I think Beast Trick would be cool if you COULD trurn a wild Cannock against an enemy like those Beast-Rider people on Onderon. It would be useful because it gives you incentive to use it AND it gives you another "ally" during a battle if you happen to be in the wilderness as on Duxn or even Dantooine. The same thing with Revitalize. If they scripted a few VERY short scenarios where you had to "revive" your party members (from gas; poisons or something) and you couldn't use Force Heal (at any level), then I don't think I'd mind it as much. I wouldn't level it up, but it gives it a point of being in the story. Ironically, they DID try this with Force Breath (Breathe?) in the Jek' Jek Tar... But you don't need it if you use your breathing mask from Peragus (what is funny is that I had about four of them from just random loot drops on different planets so my entire party, including Mira, was wearing one just for the hell of it and it made all the gas mines in the sewers useless... Not quite what the devs had in mind is my guess ). RE: Master Speed. This is a definite MUST in both games. It increases your attacks two fold as well as raises your defense. If you don't like the visual effect, there is a mod that takes away almost ALL of the visual effects for Force Powers that make it more like the films and more immersive and less D&D-like.

I've done the game successfully through a few times and have never had this problem. I even went to Dantooine as my first planet (after Telos) as well. It is obvious the game is buggy as hell. I also think this is why OE had to cut out all the original endings and other side-quests (Droid planet/factory) because if you read the dev dairies... Around Novemember they said they ran into a huge problem -- Presumably on the XBox version since that is the version that came first. It has not been confirmed, but I will bet that they were too ambitious (technically) and being pressured with a Dec. deadline had no choice but to ship the game in the state the way they did and with the truncated ending we have now. === RE: Redemption Quest Bug.. It has been speculated on the Spoilers Board that this is a direct result of some of the endings being cut. Basically, the whole "redemption" quest IS the main story. So, if they cut out key places where you could gain LS points and script triggers than there is no technical way to finish this:

And your point is? I read your post. You are claiming it is not a bug with the game. That is wrong. End of story.

This is NOT a bug. You need to use the Party Selection screen to RE-ADD your party members. I wish OE had given a pop-up notice to let the player know this, however.

No. That came later. In KotOR there are plenty of Sith. And I don't mean "Sith troopers", I mean real Sith. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> From a gampely mechanic it still would have worked because it is something the casual gamer can identify with (from the films) and the devs can use to justify facing BOTH of them if this was their original intent.

I think the possiblities are that you were either supposed to face either Kriea OR Atris depending on your allignment and gender... And or Kriea first and THEN Atris second regardless of gender or allignment. The logic is that there is always and only two Sith -- Master and Apprentice. Atris would be Kriea (Darth Traya's) apprentice. This works because regardless of what side you play, you would have to defeat Atris in the end to either save the galaxy for LS, or take her place at Kriea's side for (or just take Kriea's place if they intended you to completely kill her before facing Atris) DS. --- Also... I wonder if the dialogue would have been (is) the same if you play as a female because it obvious the Exile (male) had a thing with Atris and that is why she (Atris) is both hurt and angry at your character because you "abandoned her" when you went to war with Revan if you are in fact a male. I don't know if OE is brave enough... Ratings wise... To push a same-sex relationship IF Atris' dialogue doesn't change if you are a female (I've only played through as a male). Juhani was also a Gay character... But it wasn't the focus of her character and is something you really had to dig for if you wanted to know this (her relationship with Bayala at the Enclave and of course she expresses her feelings for you atop the Temple before you face Malak).

Knights of the Old Republic Save Game Editor. Look for it on pcgamemods.com in the KOTOR section or on the LA Forums, Holowan Labs Forum that deals with modding the game and mod tools.

1) Telos Fuel Quest -- I think this one is in fact bugged because I've talked to Vogga right after the event chain of sequences (from when you are gassed to destroying Gotos Yacht) by myself as well and also with Goto (and just Goto and myself) and I never get the dialogue options of the quest actually being finished. I was playing LS at the time. Also, as an experiment, the first thing I did in one play through, LS, when I first arrived on Nar Shadda was go and speak to Vogga to get this quest going (triggered). I actually think I may have completed it there because you get the Journal entry and XP of about 1000 points if you just say you want a fair deal... But it still haunts my Active Quest Log like others have said even whenl the game is finished. I think the problem with the way the developers designed this one is that it is reliant on EXACTLY how you play the game and possibly in terms of where and WHEN you trigger things. I do consider this bugged because as I said, I think you can actually complete the quest before or after the event chain, but it's stil listed as Active AND Grenn still goes on and on about it even as the station is under attack by Sith and Mercs. 2) TSF: Bounty -- I think this another bugged quest because it requires you advance it to a certain point in order to be able to complete it (seeing the thugs run off from Jana Lorso's Czerka office; You HAVE to go see Jana even if you don't intend to work for her as a LS player to trigger this and you HAVE to do this before you decide to work with the Inthorians as LS)... Yet when after you are shot down and meet Bao-Dur... I never did encounter those two thugs... Yet after I left Atris' academy I went back to the station, told Gren I killed them and got 200 credits and XP. Maybe it is not a bug per se... But this side-quest's structure is one any player (LS or DS) could easily miss and I would have never known this unless I read a Strategy Guide I found on the net. 3) Korriban -- This is an incredibly bugged "quest". If it is not... It is poorly scripted and comes off as buggy as Hell because you can get stuck in "moral loops" -- Where you have to decide if you defend Kreia, or strike her down because I've literally gone through all THREE options (defend, kill and apathy) IN ONE SESSION, right after the other, and it wasn't until I picked kill that I was able to proceed. The same "bug" appears when you have to decide if you want to go with Revan again or not. You can run through every single scenario until you "pass" the test. I know the devs had to account for the DS and LS player allignment... But I also think they put a little too much freedom in this particular part of the game because you can literally be a LS player and switch your mind in either of the two situations... And you walk away with DS points and vice versa. I wish the allignment meter was turned off, or every choice was nuetral (in terms of the game registering as such) because why should I, as a LS player, get DS points for striking down a Sith (Kriea confesses she has fallen and intends to kill you and your party no matter what) as well as get LS points for joining Revan (again) if you are DS?! This is what I said in that most players won't know if it is a bug in the game or just really bad design choices. I vote for the latter in my opinion. 4) Refugee Quests - My first play though as LS I slaughtered the Overseer and the Sorocco thugs. The second time I played through as LS... I just used Force Persuade on both the Overseer and Sorroco Leader and gained a peaceful solution with no blood shed and got 1000 XP PER SIDE (Sorroco and Overseer). Zek said the exact same thing: He was confused about whether my actions were aiding or detering the Exchange. I think this is just sloppy writing... Maybe even a scripting bug? I think the intent on Zek's part is to encompass the overall things he has seen your PC do since he later says he couldn't really reveal himself (the whole Scion/Force Sensative plot)... So, I am thinking he is actually hearing of things second hand... Perhaps through Mira... And not actually seeing which side you are fighting for (either DS or LS) at this point. I know. More excuses for sloppy writing, but I think this is the only way the devs could account for both DS and LS players respectively and not have it be too obvious which side Zek was "rooting" for until you (your PC) actually talks to him yourself. Also... I think the LS/DS meter overlooks acts of violence IF it is the best interest of protecting others and helping the innocent if you are LS. This is why you can kill Exchange bosses and thugs as well as Mercs not get a DS shift.

Exactly. The English language is one that relies more on context than content. This is why English, for non-native English speakers, is the hardest language on the planet to learn when they first learn it. Half of the stuff we say just isn't correct and relies more on inference and context than actual content as far as the written rules are concerned. For example... "I got him to tell me where the Jedi Masters are", or "I got Goto in my party now". This is grammatically incorret and should be, "I was able to get him to tell me where the Jedi Masters are" and "I [now] have Goto in my party".... But it's too formal and too long and hence, why we've adapted the use of inference and context to shorten the workload on our part is so ingrained in our vocabluaries and personalities.

"Me" is incorrect in this instance I believe. Here is the test: -"I am stronger than Kriea. -"Kriea is stronger than I" -- Both of these sentences are grammatically correct. Now... -"Me is stronger than Kriea" -"Kriea is stronger than me". -- The first setence doesn't *sound* correct because it is not grammatically correct if I recall. The second one *sounds* correct, but it isn't because it is following the same rule as the first. Hence, both are incorrect. The English language is a tricky thing. I too noticed a ton of typos and other grammatical errors in the subtitles and quest logs as well. The one that jumped out at me the most is when you talk to the Jedi Master Zek (whatever his name is) on Nar Shaddaa. They actually wrote something like... "... That is why the Jedi decided to disband and hide. I [sPACE] t's was our choice..." That is just sloppy proofing any way you slice it.

Not to be a jerk once more... But do you guys ever visit the main Forums like the General Discussion and Spoilers Forums? If you did, you would know what is going on. This forum... ALL OF THEM... Are going to be closed shortly until (if) they find a Community Manager to better run the place. This isn't news and isn't that relevant to this particular issue in and of itself.. But what is are some of the posts and e-mails that have been posted (with permission) where OE developers have baiscally said there is no plans for a content-pack as of yet -- and resampled music would fall under that -- As they have already put in a request to LA and it is everyone's best guess they (LA) will most likely ignore it since they've already made their money from both the XBox and PC sales. Also... Be "lucky" we are getting patches for the technical problems becuase I think the relationship between the fans and LA... And OE to some extent... Is not on the best of terms right now since this game is basically in a post-alpha, pre-beta state for a lot of people, mono music aside. So, I am not saying don't e-mail LA, belive it or not. However, be aware LA is known to get more "annoyed" with its "fans" if you perpetually keep hounding them on issues they have no intention of recitifying, so it might behoove some of you to focus your energies elsewhere, or just accept it for what it is and move on. Flame away...

Actually, he/she should be able to easily change resoultions during the game (once exited to the main menu). I've done it a couple of times to test out AA and AF settings on both an Nvidia and ATI card. What it sounds like is that the OP tried to change the resolution and its accompanying refresh rate to one their monitor may have not been able to handle and that is why it went black as some monitors do this to prevent them from frying the flyback circuit that has to do with refresh rate changes. Also... Please list your system specs (if you do come back) so we might be in a better position to help you. === I have an XBox and the only thing that I like about it is... Aside from some of the games, of course (Mercenaries rocks!)... Is that you don't have to worry about tweaking the thing 99.9% of the time to play almost any game you want. You pop in the DVD, hit a few buttons and boom! You're off and playing. The downside to consoles, currently, is the XBox is essentially a 1999 era PC and games like KOTOR literally struggle to be run at decent frame rates... Even though they can only run at 30 FPS for both PAL and NTCS. They tend to drop below that and it looks jerky just like it does on the PC when it drops below 60 FPS (minimum FPS for full motion video on a PC monitor vs. TV).

It is a known bug *IN* the Odyssey Engine that has to do with Vertex Buffer Objects, hence the "Disable Vertex Buffer Objects=1" paramater specifically for ATI cards and any cards who may have low frame-rate problems as a result.

If anyone has kept up with the development history of TSL... There was a critical point in November when one of the devs said that they ran into a HUGE problem because they couldn't implement something they wanted to. My guess is that the game was almost done... Meaning ALL of the endings, the HK factory and everything else... But the limited hardware of the XBox was incompatbile or with something or other, so they had to do a drastic redesign of the game at the last moment in order to make the Christmas deadline (this has not been confirmed, but if you read-between-the-lines in the interview, this is basically what is being said). I am in no way excusing LA for giving them an impossible, one year deadline for a game of this scope... But from a strictly technical standpoint I am pretty sure this is what happened and we can all see where they had to make drastic cuts Also, I am not starting an XBox vs. PC war either. I own an XBox and a high powered (AMd 64) gaming rig and like each one for their strengths. But again, from a strictly development point of view... I think this is what happened and it is a shame because a game like KOTOR really is not a console game in the sense that it is a very complicated piece of programming and unfortnately, the devs had to design it with the limitations of a 1999 era PC (the XBox) in mind when if they had just done two versions for each platform and tested it properly then perhaps the PC version wouldn't have suffered both artistically and technically.

Could you post a screenshot of it? I've had a similar issue on my ATI 9800 Pro XT... But this is because the card starts overheating (stock cooler) after extended periods (four, five hours) of play and simply shutting down the PC and letting things cool off for a while fixes it 99% of the time.

I will depart this discussion and leave it to everyone's own devices. However, I do wish to say this: My intent for starting this thread was to hopefully help me understand why I possibly was not understanding the story to some extent... And it has. I've learned... Through responses on this thread and others I've read... That the main problem (in my eyes) is that the main narrative that I was (am) looking for is found mostly through the influence gameplay mechanic more than the direct and indirect iteractions with the NPCs you encounter as well as your party NPCs as it was in KOTOR I. I just feel that this may not necessarily be the best way to present the core story because there is the distinct possibility you will basically miss "it" (mostly, Kriea who goes into explicit detail about most of the things you have questions about (Scion; Nihilus(sp?); Force Wound) if you don't "powergame" the Influence properly strictly for that reason. I know this is a game and that the designers can't anticipate an infinite amount of combinations of how players will play through in this regard... But I also feel that there needs to be an "alternative" way to get the vital backstory on some of the major events and characters WITHOUT having to "powerplay" the Influence function and I do think this, from my perspective as a gamer more than writer, is a problem as far as the game is designed. As I said before, I am not the only one who feels this way as evidenced by the quotes and those brave enough to post who have also chimed in with their responses on this thread as well. I think this is something that OE (and all RPG makers) need to at least take away from any of this (everyone's varied opinions) because I think there is merit to it on at least a strategic/structural level that hopefully won't present itself as a "problem" -- if you view it as such -- in future games. And in closing... The reason why I entitled the thread "From a Writer's Perspective" was in fact to hopefully attract fellow writers AND anyone who likes to read a good story as opposed to those who don't care about story as much as gameplay. That's all. However, it is evident that I committed the cardinal "sin" and actually tried to give a little credibility to what I was saying -- the "semi-professional" writer part (all that means is that I HAVE been paid to write, just not recently and not full-time)... And of course, voilated the Politically Correct paradigm of "don't be proud, be humble" when in fact I and other writers do have a small "right" to be just a little proud of the fact that we are supposedly trained better than non-writers in knowing what goes into a good story... Just like the CPA in my tax law analogy... But it is obvious that it hurt some people's egos (why I said it violated the Politically Correct paradigm) and there is nothing I can do about that. I'm not going to apologize for it. However, you know what they say. Opinions are like A-holes, right? Everyone's got them... Especially, on the internet. If what I said offends you (all those who feel slighted) that much... Then maybe you should take some time off from this board and the internet all together because all it is, in the end, is just a bunch of text on a monitor. I don't "know" you and you don't know me. But I do want to thank you... ALL of you... For participating in this discussion and I will leave you be. By the way, notsofast... Your posts come off as the most condescending of them all no matter how you try and twist it arond on me. You procede to lecture me like some child when you don't know a damn thing about me. At least I listened to my detractors on this thread and even in the face of what I consider melodramatic reactions to some of the things I've said... I still consider what they are saying (said) as it has helped me see what they are in fact saying between the lines. You could possibly learn a little of that humility that I was talking about above. Good day.

Interesting how you go out of your way to state your own credentials in an effort to show how stating one's credentials is not the proper way to win friends and gain influence. This is thinly-veiled hypocracy at its finest. I don't have a problem with others opinions... Professional or not. But I think, as much as some posters don't want to hear this, there are those of us who are skilled in storytelling more than others and that some of the flaws I and others have pointed out amount to just sloppy storytelling any way you slice it. Does this make me "superior" to somebody who isn't as knoweledgeable (or analytical) who is just looking to enjoy the game? Of course not... But it does gives me and others a more informed perspective than someone who doesn't care about writing or storytelling (in general) just as someone who has is a CPA a more informed knowledge of tax codes and accounting practices. It is obvious I have struck a nerve with some people... But what I am also seeing (on this thread and others) is that some people desperately wanted to like this game and are justifying a lot of sloppy writing because they need to like this game to justify their $50. I apologize if that does make me conceited ... But I've never been one to shy away from telling it like I see it.. And I don't say this because we are on the internet in a shallow attempt to seem "cool" or "rebellious". I want to thank everyone's opinions because you all have raised good counter-points and that is all I ask: You can disagree with me as long as you back it up just like I did in my initial post. ==== What I think I have a real "problem" (best word) with TSL and its story is that it is challenging the genre/basis that the SW universe was created under and that is Romantic-Adventure, I.E. Romanticism. Romanticism often entails extremes of clear-cut good and evil. TSL is trying to inject a grey area into that (as I mentioned before) and I think *this* is what I may be having a problem with because of the way the game itself is built around the absolutes of LS/DS in terms of its gameplay mechanics... But the actual storyline/theme is almost 180 degrees and working against that. I think this cognitive disonance is what a lot of players are picking up on... But they don't know how to describe it... Just like I didn't until I did read a few other threads (both pro and con) and it hit me like a Corellian freighter. Some can and will argue that the two elements (story and gameplay mechanics) compliement one another... And I will agree to a point. I still think that the gameplay mechanics that are based on absolutes are in direct conflict with the overall theme that Kreia represents and had their been MORE gameplay alternatives and scenarios that actually built on what Kriea was saying then maybe I and others wouldn't feel this way. However, I still think there are some illogical plot holes and things that just can't be overlooked no matter if the overall theme and gameplay mechanics are working together or not.

I think what you just said is the most simple answer why a lot of people can't play DS and feel "good" about it. The real world, as we all know, is full of gray areas and a lot of terrible things. We play games to escape and do things that we normally couldn't do... One of which is right the wrongs that we could never do in the real world (at least for me). So, playing DS is basically bringing the real world into your time to escape and probably very unappealing for this reason alone.

The big loophole with most EULA (End User Licence Agreements) is that the burden of proof is always on the buyer and not the producer (in no uncertain terms). The producer is protected in that depending on the Country, State, Province et al. if the producer can prove that their product... In this case, software... Works on over 50% of the hardware it is designed for and causes no bodily harm (monitors don't explode; CPU don't burn up and start fires) then they are actually fulfiling their part of the buyer/seller contract because the software (game) DOES in fact work... It just doesn't work very well. For example, Obsidian can take four computers, two Pentiums with Nvidia graphics cards and two with AMDs with ATI cards (or vice versa) and if it manages to work on three out of the four (<50%) of the machines then it satisfies this loophole and they can't be sued. It doesn't matter if they are getting 2 FPS on the AIT cards and 100 FPS on the Nvidia cards. That's not the purpose of the test. The purpose is that it works on over %50 of the test samples hardware. Period. And a company can actually use that small a sample (only four computers) in arbitration/legal hearing to prove it. This is why you're never going to see software manufactuers held accountable for anything they sell unless it just does not work for a majority of people and or it causes some kind of bodily harm or other harm (like HD data corruption and loss) AND can be PROVED -- Again, key loophole feature.

An addendum to my earlier post: As I said, I don't mind developers trying to expand the way games (as a media) are used. However, I just think that in TSL case that they didn't do a good job of it in the sense that the execution fell flat in a lot of areas (mostly due to the cut content that couldn't be included). As another poster said... It's the thought that counts... But in a game, or any narrative-driven piece of entertainment, it is the execution that counts above all else and I think that Obsidian just did not execute it properly in my opinion and that is why I said what I said before about plot holes and it being just a grand experiment that ultimately doesn't fit in to the SW Universe in its current form.

Even though it is just a game... It is still interesting to see people's reactions to it as it is, essentially, a morality simulator in a lot of respects (both I & II). I, like some, did find playing DS a little easier in TSL because the dialogue options, even for LS, were more along the lines of a cynical war vet who has seen it all to where thugs and intimidation wouldn't even phase him/her and my gut reaction... In playing that "role"... Is to throw them right back. Also, for me, it came down to just a matter of respect in that I found some of the more amusing dialogue options like "That's right. Mess with me and you'll find out" more appropriate... Even for LS... In certain situations given the background of my character (male OR female). The big limiting factor with the KOTOR series in playing DS is that it is limited by the game mechanics in that being a truly manipulative Sith Lord like Kriea/Traya and Palpatine in the films would take to long and actually ISN'T good material for a game because the game is after all a hybrid RPG/Action-Adventure game to where violence and thuggery are viewed as the "ultimate" evil one can do to lesser NPCs as well as the existing baddies (Nihilus; Scion; Atris) if the intent behind the violence is self-serving and not for the greater good, or helping the innocent and oppressed.

Good post. This was my main contention with the storyline... That and a whole host of poorly executed plot points and other elements as well. I completely agree that Kriea's "morality" just does not fit in with the SW universe and while I applaud Obsidian for trying... I think they may have gone too far in that the SW universe deals in absolutes for the most part and Kreia is pretty much the Gray that exists in between those two spectrums... But that is not what SW is really about to begin with. Hence, it seems completely out-of-place and like it is coming out of nowhere... Because it is to some degree. I also think trying to tackle such a deep philosophical subject in a video game is the wrong media to do it in for the simple fact that while games can be smart (as gamers can), the primary purpose of a game... Even an RPG... Is to entertain first and foremost and "teach" or be thought provoking second (if at all). I get the distinct impression the writer(s) reversed this either intentionally, or on accident and as a result, it just comes off as confusing and even pretentious at certain points because of the bad execution as well.

After doing some research... aka looking at older threads on other Obsidian/TSL boards... It has come to my attention that others of you have managed to succinctly and more accurately describe what I was struggling with through three pages (here) and I would like to list a few of them for you. This sums up my feelings in a nutshell. I'm sorry... But it does. You can call me a "dumb ass who should go back to playing Tetris if this is too complicated for you"... But the truth is that the game, in my humble opinion from someone who knows what good storytelling is just has a lot of problems story and execution-wise.

Sorry for resurrecting this thread... But I recently (today) created a thread that addresses what I feel are the major shortcomings of TSL and discuss them openly and more in-depth since we are allowed to on the Spoilers Board: http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=31221 I am cross-referencing this and the other thread because I want to commend you for actually putting into words some of the missing "concepts" that I was struggling with and am going to cite some of them in my most recent post.