Yosharian

Does it even work that way in Deadfire? Still waiting for confirmation on that

> deadfire is more goofy Is that a bad thing? Jan Jansen is one of the goofiest characters in all of CRPG history and yet he's one of the more memorable parts of Baldur's Gate 2, for example. A bit of goof now and then lightens the tone, and provides variety. > gimmicky I don't see how Deadfire is gimmicky. > less hardcore dungeons and dragons then the first game. PoE wasn't 'hardcore dungeons and dragons'. > One of the reasons I didn’t like Divinity os2 was because of how goofy it was DOS2 significantly toned down the goofiness compared to its predecessor. It's still a bit goofy though.

Necessary?

*chuckle* some folks is trying real hard. unless you are being incredibly inefficient, there is only so much potential damage in the beta. sure, you can waste big damage abilities on nameless mooks, but why? total enemies defeated were 136. so as a single target dps we accounted for over 1/3 o' all kills and did ~2000 more damage than anybody else in the party while only taking 329 damage. sure, coulda' increased numbers by going with greatsword in modal, but it didn't fit the theme and such numbers would be largely wasted. our damage observations were a response to the poster noting how squishy were rogues, but if you somehow see paucity, then am gonna admit amusement. mirror universe indeed. we got more than a few hours invested in the beta. (understatement) even so, the vanilla rogue legit surprised us with how effective it were, particular as a caster killer. HA! Good Fun! I’m not trying anything I’m just telling the truth, in my playthrough, I just did the titan fight plus 2 level of the dungeon with a 4 member team, my monk/devoted get 8k+ in record, soulblades/paladin 4k, pure ascendant 4k and chanter support so not much damage. Anyway happy you enjoy your rogue and I’m not convincing you it’s not good or anything. Your maths doesn't add up. 6k isn't 'really low' compared to 8k. 8k is only 25% more than 6k. If 8k is the ceiling set by the most overpowered class combo in the game (not to mention Devoted is restricted to one weapon type), 6k isn't bad at all. And I also said I didn’t play the whole playthrough, only titan and dungeon 1,2 Alright, fair enough

*chuckle* some folks is trying real hard. unless you are being incredibly inefficient, there is only so much potential damage in the beta. sure, you can waste big damage abilities on nameless mooks, but why? total enemies defeated were 136. so as a single target dps we accounted for over 1/3 o' all kills and did ~2000 more damage than anybody else in the party while only taking 329 damage. sure, coulda' increased numbers by going with greatsword in modal, but it didn't fit the theme and such numbers would be largely wasted. our damage observations were a response to the poster noting how squishy were rogues, but if you somehow see paucity, then am gonna admit amusement. mirror universe indeed. we got more than a few hours invested in the beta. (understatement) even so, the vanilla rogue legit surprised us with how effective it were, particular as a caster killer. HA! Good Fun! I’m not trying anything I’m just telling the truth, in my playthrough, I just did the titan fight plus 2 level of the dungeon with a 4 member team, my monk/devoted get 8k+ in record, soulblades/paladin 4k, pure ascendant 4k and chanter support so not much damage. Anyway happy you enjoy your rogue and I’m not convincing you it’s not good or anything. Your maths doesn't add up. 6k isn't 'really low' compared to 8k. 8k is only 25% more than 6k. If 8k is the ceiling set by the most overpowered class combo in the game (not to mention Devoted is restricted to one weapon type), 6k isn't bad at all.

> Sawyer has come and and officially stated that a single class rogue is currently the lowest DPS melee class in there analytics statistics. I thought he said it was the opposite when people actually put the Rogue in decent armor? I don't think you're telling the whole story with respect to this comments on this issue

So One-Handed Style beats or is at least on par with Dual-Wield? What about 2H? Still awful?

Very true.The development process is often regarded by the developers as "long" but rarely is it ever regarded to as "hard"... Unless, that is if the developers faced aot of problems (people didagreeing, people coming in and going out, people who are having medical issues, technical issues). None of these things are normal while working on a project - though I can see how some people here may see it as normal, I mean, if a person only follows games where development have only ever been a bad experience for developers, then that's all they will think. Game development in the industry is usually said to be fun. Quality games are only out of love, passion and happiness. Being content with a project is key. Being uncertain and losing vision can break the product and company. Development hell isn't normal, it's sad to hear though. You completely misunderstood my meaning Okay. If you don't mind me asking, what did you mean? The point of my wall of text (or as other members might call "babbling") was that Obsidian bit off more than what they could chew. This isn't how things normally go down, even in the development of games we are not let into and we are seeing the struggle in the balancing nw and how they are going about fixing it. This was just a price of the game being too ambitious? I meant the opposite to what you thought I meant

Very true. The development process is often regarded by the developers as "long" but rarely is it ever regarded to as "hard"... Unless, that is if the developers faced aot of problems (people didagreeing, people coming in and going out, people who are having medical issues, technical issues). None of these things are normal while working on a project - though I can see how some people here may see it as normal, I mean, if a person only follows games where development have only ever been a bad experience for developers, then that's all they will think. Game development in the industry is usually said to be fun. Quality games are only out of love, passion and happiness. Being content with a project is key. Being uncertain and losing vision can break the product and company. Development hell isn't normal, it's sad to hear though. You completely misunderstood my meaning

Eh? Where did you see that? I agree that Carnage is a bit weak. I mean all right it doesn't need PEN and all but 30% is pretty whimpy. Also because Carnage's radius is smaller due to the nerf of the effects that INT has on AoE size. Carnage has always been utter crap. The only thing that saved it in PoE was weapon procs. Without that, it's trash, even if it is raw damage. In PoE it's not. It gains +1 ACC with every char level und thus has +6 (+11 with Accurate Carnage) accuracy compared to barb's base accuracy at lvl 16. Or in other words: it's like an AoE auto-attack with a higher "base" accuracy than a fighter has. The 34% damage malus loses its impact soon enough once you get other dmg modifiers. It's only bad in the early game due to abysmal ACC and low damage (=low DR penetration). And that's when people start to judge and toss it aside. Shame if you ask me. It's one of the most powerful passive abilites in PoE if you know what you're doing and when you have to do it. But I wouldn't want Deadfire to reintroduce the weapon procs with Carnage. You can already see which horrible balancing problems come with that: look at Spirit Lance/Minor Blights/Blast and how they are implemented (like PoE's Carnage basically...). Proc BLinding Strike in an AoE - use Soul Annihilation in an AoE - Cascade Swift Flurry to one-shot groups. Ach! Again: I would want Carnage to be a bit better in Deadfire though. At the moment it makes me sad to look at those disappointing numbers (at lvl 9!). For starters they could give the Mage Slayer spell disruption for Carnage, too. > horrible balancing problems That's entirely why it's crap. It goes from being crap to being super strong. And people rightly dismiss it early game because it's useless early on! Carnage is the quintessential impossible-to-balance skill because it affects too many targets.

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm still curious as to the mechanics of 'ranks' in Deadfire's Faith & Conviction

Eh? Where did you see that? I agree that Carnage is a bit weak. I mean all right it doesn't need PEN and all but 30% is pretty whimpy. Also because Carnage's radius is smaller due to the nerf of the effects that INT has on AoE size. Carnage has always been utter crap. The only thing that saved it in PoE was weapon procs. Without that, it's trash, even if it is raw damage. Carnage needs to be completely reworked.

How much of game development is always this manic, though? We're just getting a glimpse into development that we don't normally get, because we're backers.

How are you able to make that comparison when you are evaluating them by different metrics? What are the scales here? The scale is effective contribution to the party's success. In PoE for example Durance was far more effective than any rogue. I haven't done a mathematical analysis to demonstrate that, I just know it from experience, but I have no doubt it could be proved. I would not be surprised if the additional damage output across the party from from just Dire Blessing casts alone amounted to more than a single rogue's damage output for the whole game. Not to mention the DPS increases from protecting the entire party from Terrify, Confuse, Charm, Dominate, Paralyze, etc etc

So much hate, lol. Try not to stereotype me, plz. I play games for fun and for fun only. That's the sole point of their existence. But fun, for me, is the gameplay. Sure, lots of people play these games for story and atmosphere - great for them. But I'm just finding the writing and thus the atmosphere in the majority of games (Pillars included) to be utter schlock. Like, I'm reading through Philip K. ****'s bibliography right now. And it's awesome. But I have no idea how to enjoy game writing right after that. The discrepancy in writing levels is just devastating. Even the ability to roleplay doesn't compensate for much because all the options I'm given are trash. From my point of view. I'm pretty much forced to agree with the Skaenite priest. I can't tell Iovara that she's stupid trash and no one cares about her preaching. I can't even join Thaos or make peace with him - like, what do I have against the dude? And that's not to mention that I'm not interested in having the tired hero's journey, I want to have a more subdued and existential experience. Call me snob or whatever, but I'm in this stuff for gameplay 'cause that's the only tasty part. And see, strange it may sound, but I want to have my cake sweet. 'Cause that's what the cake is ought to be as far as I know. And you say - no, you're a bad person for enjoying your cake sweet! Immediately, immediately add lots of pepper and salt, otherwise, you're maxing too much! It's unfair!!! What is unfair? If I'm playing the fighter whom I want to see stabby or shooty, he oughta be stabby or shooty. If intelligence doesn't help him to be this, why should I pay the tax? More so, even in terms of the story it has zero bearing - there's no dumb dialogue and stat usage is wholly comsetic. It doesn't truly affect anything. That's just the sad truth. So I should salt and pepper my cake so I can imagine that it's a fair cake and thus it's somehow better? Now yeah, sure, as the game designer I agree that min-maxing is ugly and should be avoided. But, well, if min-maxing is so bad then maybe they should've just disallowed to make stats lower than 8 or something. Or maybe made the system where all stats are actually useful. If something is mostly useless I just refuse to make-believe that it's useful. That's ugly. Mind you, I'm not blaming the Josh for this. PoE is a big game and it's problem that it's supposed to serve just too much people. Too many category of players. It should please all story-no combat crowd, it should please party players, it should please solo players, ironman has to be there, etc. It also shouldn't stray too much from the BG but at the same time it can't copy it too much. However nice BG is (theoretically, I hate it), the majority of fans here have played the living hell out of it and I doubt that the same gameplay would've actually pleased them much. Now, back to the fighters. They're just not gaining enough from the int. They just don't. Let's not forget that rest seems to be much more spammier in this game. And Fighters don't have good skill targets for empower. So refresh is the way to go, essentially giving a lvl 9 fighter 10 ability points. That's 30-40 seconds of both Vigorous Defense and Disciplined Strikes. And it's not even a given that you need to use Vigorous - it depends on how much of a tank your fighter is. Depending on your squad, that'll wary. Considering how swift the majority of the fights are (even on PoTD), that's just enough duration. Rapid recovery reduction is a non-factor. Even at 30 seconds it's long enough because, once again, the fights are fast-paced and by that time you'll probably crush all major opposition. So it still helps you to get through the toughest spot and then it's, like, whatever. Another thing is that there are tons of good healing sources in the game. Great, even. So losing a bit of virtual health is not the end of the world. Mob stance is highly annoying to use in the party playthrough. It's difficult to guarantee that it's your fighter who gets the last hit unless you go into full microcontrol mode - like, stop the game every time and order everyone else to change targets. If you don't do this then you'll rarely get those whirlwinds. If you do this, it's cool but it's annoying. Outside of that, the fighter just doesn't have any worthwhile abilities. He doesn't even have that many abilities in the first place and most of them are meh. You'd rather pump more self-buffs. So why invest into a stat that's not truly used? Losing will is annoying and even on POTD 14 will actually matters - with Determination, Vigorous Defense and Bull's Will you can reach more or less reasonable levels of resistance. But, as the others have said, there are other ways to prevent domination. Or you'd just better invest into Resolve. The final angle here is that the best hope of intelligent fighters are the goold old "stun on crit' weapons. That is, if they exist in this iteration of pillars. Given how sparse the disables are in this one, I'm not sure if we'll see something like that. Mb interrupt or prone, but probably not stun. And even if it's here, another major issue (not in favor of intelligence) is that the combat is really, really rapid right now. Any decent build deals tons of damage. And fighter is an excellent damage dealer. So why bother locking a foe with something like Dex-Int build when you can just shred him with low-int, high damage build? Dead enemy needs no stuns. I wish I could like this comment more than once. I really hate it when I'm expected to role-play Intelligence on an honour system.

its not radius in deadfire, its area

> In my experience on beta PotD enemies target the guy with the worst defense. If that is your super min maxed Harbinger of Death melee god then the rest of your team is in peril of getting splatted. Not dumping a defense and grabbing additional protection like Vigorous Defense or Iron Will or the +20 affliction defense can make a big difference between getting crit or getting missed/grazed. Alright so that just means it's a better strategy to go for immunities, since buffing your defenses just means the enemy will ignore your character and charm some other character instead. Those defenses count for nothing if the enemy just charms someone else: you still end up with someone charmed. > Duration wise a standout ability like Disciplined Strikes is 15 seconds. With my typical 15 Intellect I get 18.75 seconds and three uses will last 56 seconds. To match that with a 3 Intellect Moron you'd get 9.75 seconds per cast and need 5 casts to get to 49 seconds. That saves two discipline points that can be used for something like Vigorous Defense to further harden your defenses. Only two points? That doesn't sound great, honestly. Considering that the moron gets to put 12 points into other attributes such as Dexterity, Resolve... I think the moron comes out on top. > In the case of Constant Recovery base duration is 45 seconds. My approach gets you 56 seconds and the Moron gets you 29 seconds. A tough fight, the ones where you want your regen, is going to last more than 30 seconds. Counter-argument: in a tough fight, Constant Recovery won't do ****. > but you'll still suffer from short durations My point is, you can work around the short durations, and the benefits are sizeable.

They are not only immune to lowest level of affliction, but also immune to highest level of afflictions. Can we get a ranked list of these afflictions? So we can see exactly which ones we get immunity to and so on I know that there's Confuse/Charm/Dominate but I don't know the others Edit: never mind I found it now So what you're saying is that Fighters can never be: Stunned Paralyzed Terrified with these talents?

This is actually great for explaining the D&D methodology of alignment. You split it into two answers though. Lawful: You give them accurate directions to the parliament. Neutral: You probably give them directions if you know them, but you aren't particularly concerned if they are perfect. If you dislike the person you probably refuse. Chaotic: Maybe you give directions, maybe you don't, maybe they are accurate, maybe they aren't. It depends on whether you like the guy or feel incentivized pretty much. Good: You also tell them, uh this has to go to city hall, not parliament. Neutral: Maybe you tell them to go to city hall instead, assuming you know that, but you gave them the info they wanted so *shrug* Evil: You omit that they have to go to city hall, and depending on law/chaos/etc maybe even lie and say they have to go to some fake non existent office that doesn't exist. This is reasonable but I prefer to look at alignment through motivation rather than actions. My actions may differ greatly from moment to moment based on circumstance, but my overall motivations should stay reasonably consistent, although they too may change depending on context. So: Axis of morality Good: you act according to what is beneficial for individuals, or communities/societies as a whole Neutral: you act principally for your own benefit Evil: you take actions that specifically harm others So for example, in your hypothetical situation, a 'good' character might help the person by telling them where they really need to go, but they also might do the opposite. What if the man is a slaver, and is attempting to present a bill of sale for some slaves to the correct authority? In this case, a 'good' character might do everything in their power to hinder this man, since slavery is an evil act. However, a good person might also see slavery as a necessary, economic, evil in order to benefit civilization as a whole. The rights of the individual, in this case, are trumped by the needs of civilization. This might particularly be the case if owning and selling slaves was lawful in that particular area. So 'good' is not a black and white choice here but rather two 'good' characters might come up with completely different actions, both based on the principal of helping others. That's why I think alignments should be flexible. The world isn't always so simple. To continue, a 'neutral' person might first ask: "What's in it for me?" They might tell the person that they know where the document really needs to go, but they wish to be recompensed for the exchange of information first. This speaks to the fundamental need for 'quid pro quo' when it comes to human interactions. Not everyone expects their back to be scratched when they scratch someone else's, but most do. Neutral characters are at least willing to engage in an exchange in order to get the money or power that they desire. An 'evil' person might do the same thing, but then send the person in completely the wrong direction, perhaps towards a dark alley where they can then murder the NPC and steal all their belongings. An evil person isn't bound by conscience: they desire money, power, whatever, just like the neutral individual, but they aren't afraid to kill, blackmail, etc in order to get those things. Axis of law Lawful: you obey the law or a personal code, or are consistent in your actions Neutral: you sometimes obey laws or personal codes, or are inconsistent Chaotic: you rarely obey laws, have barely any personal code whatsoever, or are extremely inconsistent A 'lawful' character might send the NPC to the correct place (maybe after demanding payment for the information?), but also they might do the complete opposite. What if they follow a personal code which entails personal freedom as the ultimate ideal? This would put them at odds with a slaver, for sure. There are many ways a lawful character might act in this situation. However, whatever the reason for this character being 'lawful', one thing that should remain constant is the consistency with which the character follows the law, or code. A lawful character wouldn't break the law, or their personal code, or would avoid it wherever possible. A 'neutral' character might follow the same laws, or also have a code, but they'd be willing to break the rules from time to time if a good enough reason presented itself. For example, a neutral character might see a lawful obligation to send the hypothetical NPC to the right place, but then might notice a rather fat coinpurse hanging from the NPC's belt. Maybe just this once... A chaotic character is capricious and unpredictable: they barely have any kind of personal code, or they rarely give any thought to laws. It's not hard to come up with a possible response for a chaotic character, but it is hard to predict how they might respond. A chaotic character might stab the NPC through the neck just for being slaver scum. Or not. Anyway, that's how I see alignment.

For the record I completely agree that the suggestion I posted is too complex to introduce this late in the game's dev cycle. I was just spitballing, really.

> If you poop away your defenses > decent tank > can take a few hits It's only Will, a stat that is poor on Fighters anyway, and you could always put it into Resolve instead, which would give you less affliction duration and more deflection. > on account of avoiding disables. It's not clear to me that boosting your Will save by a few points and adding an extra 5 seconds of Vigorous Defense will suddenly result in a character that can 'avoid' disables. In POTD especially, charms and dominates have such high Will save requirements that it is nigh-impossible to avoid them by boosting defences (although I'll grant this is less of a factor on lower difficulties). > Is forgoing cleave I can't comment on Cleave, maybe someone else can offer some insight as to whether it's worth getting and whether lowering Intellect really harms it all that much. A lot of what I was saying about min/maxing was meant in a general sense. Weather you notice it or not all of the defensive stats associated with the attributes affect you. Also, will doesn't just save you from resolve and int afflictions, it also affects your ability to dodge abilities like shining beacon, devotions, and other attribute affects like paralyzed from banshee screams/killers froze stiff. I think you are missing the point of opportunity cost. its not 5 or 10 extra seconds of vigorous defense you get from pumping int, its 40, because you only have to spend 3 discipline for a minute of Disciplined Barrage instead of 6, so you can spend the remaining 4 points on 40 seconds of VA (i'm using base duration values and assuming the 7 points of discipline @ 10). That will indeed have an impact on the disables you sustain and your probability of getting bursted down. High defense also allows more ease of use and versatility. A higher defense may allow you to put a character into harms way to take down a priority target that they may otherwise not have been able to reach. > Weather you notice it or not all of the defensive stats associated with the attributes affect you But that's precisely my point, if my Fighter is destined to fail that Charm/Dominate save anyway, it doesn't matter if I have 40 Will or 20 Will. I'd like to see a test that shows an Intellect-boosted character with the +20 talent and Vigorous Defense activated can reliably resist Charm/Dominate, especially on POTD, else I remain sceptical that it matters at all. Not to mention that if the Charm/Dominate caster merely targets someone else in your party instead, then it's basically a pointless exercise! > paralyzed from banshee screams Right now I'm running through POE1 on POTD and that ability instantly paralyzes everyone in my party, regardless of their Will saves. The Priest immunity spell is the only way to protect against it. > so you can spend the remaining 4 points on 40 seconds of VA Ok that is a good point. About the Caen Gwla are you running a Paladin? Cause on my PoTD with an outworn buckler at about level 10 they can only land grazes and by 12 miss most of the time. I agree to a point on PoTD I think it’s better to disable And kill them to rely on saves. EXCEPT for a Paladin he can eat disables like crazy and either graze or they will miss entirely even on PoTD. This is late game about lvl 12 and on. I'm using Pallegina, yes she's using the Outworn Buckler. I'm about level 10/11 I believe. I didn't notice her suffering a graze instead of a hit but it's possible.Ya you can get hit from time to time then but you still reliably graze as a Paladin for sure. After 12 forget it you can eat attacks and they will just graze or miss Ok. But then I'm thinking: my paladin isn't paralyzed, great. But the rest of my party is. So the best strategy is still to cast the immunity spell. So... it's still rather pointless ;-) It’s micro but I just separate my Paladin pop him out of stealth and he eats all attacks at the start I buff the rest of the party and everything dies. *shrug* i guess this only really matters in fights where I seperate the tank cause I don’t want the party eating dragon breathes or bad ccs it’s not for ever fight. *shrug* Hmm, good strategy.

> If you poop away your defenses > decent tank > can take a few hits It's only Will, a stat that is poor on Fighters anyway, and you could always put it into Resolve instead, which would give you less affliction duration and more deflection. > on account of avoiding disables. It's not clear to me that boosting your Will save by a few points and adding an extra 5 seconds of Vigorous Defense will suddenly result in a character that can 'avoid' disables. In POTD especially, charms and dominates have such high Will save requirements that it is nigh-impossible to avoid them by boosting defences (although I'll grant this is less of a factor on lower difficulties). > Is forgoing cleave I can't comment on Cleave, maybe someone else can offer some insight as to whether it's worth getting and whether lowering Intellect really harms it all that much. A lot of what I was saying about min/maxing was meant in a general sense. Weather you notice it or not all of the defensive stats associated with the attributes affect you. Also, will doesn't just save you from resolve and int afflictions, it also affects your ability to dodge abilities like shining beacon, devotions, and other attribute affects like paralyzed from banshee screams/killers froze stiff. I think you are missing the point of opportunity cost. its not 5 or 10 extra seconds of vigorous defense you get from pumping int, its 40, because you only have to spend 3 discipline for a minute of Disciplined Barrage instead of 6, so you can spend the remaining 4 points on 40 seconds of VA (i'm using base duration values and assuming the 7 points of discipline @ 10). That will indeed have an impact on the disables you sustain and your probability of getting bursted down. High defense also allows more ease of use and versatility. A higher defense may allow you to put a character into harms way to take down a priority target that they may otherwise not have been able to reach. > Weather you notice it or not all of the defensive stats associated with the attributes affect you But that's precisely my point, if my Fighter is destined to fail that Charm/Dominate save anyway, it doesn't matter if I have 40 Will or 20 Will. I'd like to see a test that shows an Intellect-boosted character with the +20 talent and Vigorous Defense activated can reliably resist Charm/Dominate, especially on POTD, else I remain sceptical that it matters at all. Not to mention that if the Charm/Dominate caster merely targets someone else in your party instead, then it's basically a pointless exercise! > paralyzed from banshee screams Right now I'm running through POE1 on POTD and that ability instantly paralyzes everyone in my party, regardless of their Will saves. The Priest immunity spell is the only way to protect against it. > so you can spend the remaining 4 points on 40 seconds of VA Ok that is a good point. About the Caen Gwla are you running a Paladin? Cause on my PoTD with an outworn buckler at about level 10 they can only land grazes and by 12 miss most of the time. I agree to a point on PoTD I think it’s better to disable And kill them to rely on saves. EXCEPT for a Paladin he can eat disables like crazy and either graze or they will miss entirely even on PoTD. This is late game about lvl 12 and on. I'm using Pallegina, yes she's using the Outworn Buckler. I'm about level 10/11 I believe. I didn't notice her suffering a graze instead of a hit but it's possible. Ya you can get hit from time to time then but you still reliably graze as a Paladin for sure. After 12 forget it you can eat attacks and they will just graze or miss Ok. But then I'm thinking: my paladin isn't paralyzed, great. But the rest of my party is. So the best strategy is still to cast the immunity spell. So... it's still rather pointless ;-)

So I'm considering being a Goldpact Knight but I'm wondering about the whole role-playing aspect and how it affects gameplay. In POE1: Does it work the same way in Deadfire? Also, while we're on the subject, how much armor does Gilded Enmity give and how does it disappear? On hit, or..?

> If you poop away your defenses > decent tank > can take a few hits It's only Will, a stat that is poor on Fighters anyway, and you could always put it into Resolve instead, which would give you less affliction duration and more deflection. > on account of avoiding disables. It's not clear to me that boosting your Will save by a few points and adding an extra 5 seconds of Vigorous Defense will suddenly result in a character that can 'avoid' disables. In POTD especially, charms and dominates have such high Will save requirements that it is nigh-impossible to avoid them by boosting defences (although I'll grant this is less of a factor on lower difficulties). > Is forgoing cleave I can't comment on Cleave, maybe someone else can offer some insight as to whether it's worth getting and whether lowering Intellect really harms it all that much. A lot of what I was saying about min/maxing was meant in a general sense. Weather you notice it or not all of the defensive stats associated with the attributes affect you. Also, will doesn't just save you from resolve and int afflictions, it also affects your ability to dodge abilities like shining beacon, devotions, and other attribute affects like paralyzed from banshee screams/killers froze stiff. I think you are missing the point of opportunity cost. its not 5 or 10 extra seconds of vigorous defense you get from pumping int, its 40, because you only have to spend 3 discipline for a minute of Disciplined Barrage instead of 6, so you can spend the remaining 4 points on 40 seconds of VA (i'm using base duration values and assuming the 7 points of discipline @ 10). That will indeed have an impact on the disables you sustain and your probability of getting bursted down. High defense also allows more ease of use and versatility. A higher defense may allow you to put a character into harms way to take down a priority target that they may otherwise not have been able to reach. > Weather you notice it or not all of the defensive stats associated with the attributes affect you But that's precisely my point, if my Fighter is destined to fail that Charm/Dominate save anyway, it doesn't matter if I have 40 Will or 20 Will. I'd like to see a test that shows an Intellect-boosted character with the +20 talent and Vigorous Defense activated can reliably resist Charm/Dominate, especially on POTD, else I remain sceptical that it matters at all. Not to mention that if the Charm/Dominate caster merely targets someone else in your party instead, then it's basically a pointless exercise! > paralyzed from banshee screams Right now I'm running through POE1 on POTD and that ability instantly paralyzes everyone in my party, regardless of their Will saves. The Priest immunity spell is the only way to protect against it. > so you can spend the remaining 4 points on 40 seconds of VA Ok that is a good point. About the Caen Gwla are you running a Paladin? Cause on my PoTD with an outworn buckler at about level 10 they can only land grazes and by 12 miss most of the time. I agree to a point on PoTD I think it’s better to disable And kill them to rely on saves. EXCEPT for a Paladin he can eat disables like crazy and either graze or they will miss entirely even on PoTD. This is late game about lvl 12 and on. I'm using Pallegina, yes she's using the Outworn Buckler. I'm about level 10/11 I believe. I didn't notice her suffering a graze instead of a hit but it's possible.

> If you poop away your defenses > decent tank > can take a few hits It's only Will, a stat that is poor on Fighters anyway, and you could always put it into Resolve instead, which would give you less affliction duration and more deflection. > on account of avoiding disables. It's not clear to me that boosting your Will save by a few points and adding an extra 5 seconds of Vigorous Defense will suddenly result in a character that can 'avoid' disables. In POTD especially, charms and dominates have such high Will save requirements that it is nigh-impossible to avoid them by boosting defences (although I'll grant this is less of a factor on lower difficulties). > Is forgoing cleave I can't comment on Cleave, maybe someone else can offer some insight as to whether it's worth getting and whether lowering Intellect really harms it all that much. A lot of what I was saying about min/maxing was meant in a general sense. Weather you notice it or not all of the defensive stats associated with the attributes affect you. Also, will doesn't just save you from resolve and int afflictions, it also affects your ability to dodge abilities like shining beacon, devotions, and other attribute affects like paralyzed from banshee screams/killers froze stiff. I think you are missing the point of opportunity cost. its not 5 or 10 extra seconds of vigorous defense you get from pumping int, its 40, because you only have to spend 3 discipline for a minute of Disciplined Barrage instead of 6, so you can spend the remaining 4 points on 40 seconds of VA (i'm using base duration values and assuming the 7 points of discipline @ 10). That will indeed have an impact on the disables you sustain and your probability of getting bursted down. High defense also allows more ease of use and versatility. A higher defense may allow you to put a character into harms way to take down a priority target that they may otherwise not have been able to reach. > Weather you notice it or not all of the defensive stats associated with the attributes affect you But that's precisely my point, if my Fighter is destined to fail that Charm/Dominate save anyway, it doesn't matter if I have 40 Will or 20 Will. I'd like to see a test that shows an Intellect-boosted character with the +20 talent and Vigorous Defense activated can reliably resist Charm/Dominate, especially on POTD, else I remain sceptical that it matters at all. Not to mention that if the Charm/Dominate caster merely targets someone else in your party instead, then it's basically a pointless exercise! > paralyzed from banshee screams Right now I'm running through POE1 on POTD and that ability instantly paralyzes everyone in my party, regardless of their Will saves. The Priest immunity spell is the only way to protect against it. > so you can spend the remaining 4 points on 40 seconds of VA Ok that is a good point.