KingofThieves

No, I think I'm right on, Laozi. :cool: I said it was an influence, remember. It's not a direct copy of the situation, by any means. But there are some similarities, don't you think?

Plano: I agree, their desperation is obvious. It is also overwrought. The jedi order acted like drama queens when it came to dealing with you, and they did this simply so Kreia could step in and give her stirring speach and sit them down. Almost as if, on cue. Ultimately, they did you wrong because it was what they wished. And was it what they wished because you had a defiant history with their order? No, it was for dramatic effect. If it was one of them standing in your shoes- would they have reacted the same way? No, I seriously doubt it. The jedi order are not prone to acting rashly about things - even in times of the most hopeless desparation. This scene contradicts everything they are about. I mean, look at Revan. They gave Revan another chance when another was implausible, and Revan came through for them big time. You could sum it up to mean that the jedi were sick and tired of giving second chances during this period of galactic turmoil, and I wouldn't argue with this. But I seriously doubt the designers were trying to do anything but find the easiest way to stir Kreia's madness... Look at what Ace suggested in this thread. I feel this is something the jedi order would actually do... Like I said before, it just came off as needless kicking. CSAR: I disagree. The Jedi Order's stance in this game was clearly inspired by the vatican's stance during World War II. It is clever writing, in this respect. But gutsy? I don't think they handled the dantooine scene with the exile in a gutsy way at all. If some members of the jedi order (Kavar, Zez-Kai) realised that they may have been wrong about how they dealt with the exile the first time, well... see what I wrote above and you'll understand how I feel.

That's just the movies actually. Everything else is subject to change- should George Lucas see fit to change it. And that's the way it should be IMO. He DID create the franchise afterall. So it's his game and his rules. I think "Clerks," "Dogma" director Kevin Smith might be in a position to change some things, too. In the near future. We'll see. (w00t)

Maud Dib, your two cents may be worth a million bucks. Check the metaphorical exchange rate. I think you summed it up PERFECTLY. I'd also like to add that the jedi masters serve as THE vehicle to shove the anti-hero theme further down the PC's throat. It's kind of like, "Hey, kid, you fought in a war against our wishes, sure, but we're past that now- So we need something else to hate you for- SO YOU'RE THE NEW THREAT THAT'S GOING TO DESTROY US ALL!!! Even if you KNOW for certain you're not going to destroy us all, that's what you'll do because we say so!" The jedi council in these games just keep on kicking and kicking you. They help bring the real Kreia out into the light for what she really is. They also try to reveal what the Exile is all about, which is a mistake IMO- because it crosses the wires of everything you've been building up to. REDEMPTION. They are just so wrong about everything morally that it's hard to stomach them talking about you. You feel cheated.

I liked the characters as individuals, each had a unique perspective about your ordeal. Although, I felt dealing with the jedi masters one at a time turned out... Anti-climactic. 1. They were incapable of answering most of your questions. Meaning they were irrelevant to the story as individual characters. It was only when you brought them together at Dantooine that they began to let the words fly. 2. They gave you the run-around when it came to answering the questions they could answer, and you really weren't supplied the dialogue options to pursue it. The reason for this was explained at Dantooine, but I wanted to see a bit more character than plot from the jedi masters while dealing with them one on one. Honestly, they seemed too afraid of the PC- even a light side PC- to say anything substantial. 3. If you played dark side you learned their forms at the worst possible time- while you were fighting them. This really broke up the flow of the action to me. It did provide for an interesting twist however. Smacking them down with their own lightsaber form after mere seconds of practice- when it took them years of dedication to master- was quite satisfying revenge. Overall, I'd say the jedi master encounters were fairly well done, though they left you wanting a little more... More answers if you were a light sider, more fight if you were a dark sider.

These rules must definately suck when you're dealing with story-based action-oriented video games like this... You've got 40 hours of content to fill, and you want your PC and NPC's to rock, but... All of the amusing/interesting stuff you want to do with the Star Wars license is immediately put under the microscope. And if it seems even a little bit "poisoned" then fagedda 'bout it! It's gone like the chances of an NHL season in 2005. (w00t) You can't "Cujo up" the ewoks. You can't have female Yoda party members which develop Miss Piggy-like crushes on the PC. You can't translate curses into Star Wars slang- like "Son of a bantha!" (still don't know how "intergalactic skank" made it into the first game, George's heart must've skipped a beat when he saw that one :ph34r: ).

Actually, the relationship between Kreia and the Exile is very cat & mouse. From the very beginning (on Peragus) there are dialogue options for the exile that run through his suspicions of her, and this continues quite regularly throughout the course of the game. It is just done in a way that interjects some form of subtlety; so you can continue the teacher/student relationship with her, even if you know in your gut she is playing you for a sucker... For instance: At one point, while talking to Atton, there is an option you can take to say "I don't think she's a jedi." And even though it's not emphasized in the script, you can take this to mean the exile is revealing Kreia to Atton as sith. Even that early on in the game. It's easy for these dialogue options to get lost in the shuffle because most people are playing for light side and dark side points, and it seems the best way to get the points is just to continuosly ask the questions provided (light side), or speak the crudest sounding dialogue option in the tree (dark side). What I'm getting at: Kreia's revelation isn't exactly for shock value. It's just another piece to the puzzle... That, when applied to the board, may not even fit right, because hey- Kreia lies.

So... What is it you're all doing exactly? You say you're going to take some stuff, and then paste it together with this other stuff, and then you're going to write some new stuff, not necessarily using Lucas Arts or Obsidian's stuff (a nice way to make sure you tick 'em both off, btw ), but you are going to take some of both of it... and then you lost me... You're going to do what exactly? Mod an ending? Put in new gameplay? Release an additional set of in-game cut-scenes? Create a downloadable game movie people can watch outside of the game? I'm not saying you guys shouldn't do what you want to do, you have every right to want to tell the rest of the story, but this is some serious Deja Vu on how stories get messed up to begin with...

I'll bite... I like some things, and have no feeling one way or the other about some things (which means they're not likely great ideas, eh ). I'll concentrate solely on what made me feel. The thing that first jumps out at me, the thing I probably feel most strongly about: Jolee. And if you really know/get how he was written, then you'll know why. He became a good friend to Revan, decided to throw down his bitterness and stand with the jedi. He came out of his repressed shell, fought as hard as he could even though his best fights were behind him, and reclaimed the right to be called a jedi- not just by others but by himself. By the end of the first game he was re-attuned to the light side of the force totally... Dude, DON'T let the fact that the first game lacked some cheesey alignment slider sway you about the way of Jolee. There was nothing gray about him by game's end. Quite frankly... Don't do him like that, man. You know he deserves better. About starting on Coruscant jedi academy: TO ME, this is the PERFECT way to start off the third. And this is what I'd hope to see in the game: the character starting their journey trained in the ways of the force- taught by the people most qualified to do so, where they are most qualified to do it. Exploring the premiere, forefront jedi academy in the galaxy would also be quite the trip to the fans of the series, and to the fans of the movies alike. (But if they were to do this, they'd have to do it right. Put the work in to truly make the experience special) Vortex- black- abyss- hunger... Cheap way to deal with the real issue, which is the sith empire about to pounce on the republic from the outer rim. Don't be lazy. Confront EVERYTHING, sink your teeth into the subject matter and flip around like a rotweiler. The republic has been weakened, this is what the sith empire has been waiting anxiously for for quite some time. As the republic was weakened by the mandalorians, and then from themselves, the true sith observed quietly from beyond as they sharpened their swords. Part III is the end of the tale, the final installment. Don't add it up to be any less than what it could be. Be Return of the King, not Godfather part III.

It means that nothing can stop the damage. That it will work against all shields. Not sure how it would play out against damage reduction though. The items that have "unstoppable" all seem to do fairly low numbers. So it may not be totally unstoppable damage...

I don't think the combat is meant to be challenging, but fun. And it is fun. And the problem isn't whether your saber and force powers are overpowered. Towards the end of the game you are a very high level, as you should be, power is inevitable. You should do a devilish amount of damage, and the enemies you face should scale to deal with it. What bothers me a bit is that the enemies don't scale. I'm not upset by the drones of sith assassins and other generic enemies posing no real threat to you, for jedi heroes should- in theory- be able to cut through all minions with a relative ease. It's the way the sith lords and jedi masters seem like they would be more befitting to challenge a level a shade below what you are when you face them.

I can confirm that it works just fine for weapon master. Just checked a save game and my jedi wearing no items or clothing had a 29 defense. So that would mean... + 2 from dex, + 2 from wis, + 3 from master duelling, + 6 from guardian sense, and + 6 from weapon master sense. It works. It also works for marauder, I checked that save as well.

The clause to adding your wisdom mod to your defense is that you need to be in no way encumbered by your clothing/armor. The echani teachings require your body to flow in motion - as water would through a stream. This means your body needs to be free of all restrictions. Jedi robes stack with this, regular clothing stacks with this, but anything that offers extra protection while sacrificing even a shred of movement disqualifies you to the bonus. The miner's uniform is attained so early on in the game- I wouldn't be surprised if they made sure it didn't stack with it just because of that. It's sort of an irrelevant piece of equipment to the PC once you've left peragus anyway.

It means nobody can damage your attribute scores (i.e. Strength, dex). There are certain weapons in the game that may lower your attribute scores if they succeed in hitting you. This feat negates that. Attribute damage is not a very common occurence anyway, so I'd recommend you don't bother with the immunity.

Marauders are great, but fury is kinda bugged. If you use it with master speed your screen looks normal. You don't see any speed effects or rage effects. Kinda messes up the immersion. And when one effect wears off while the other is still active, the screen reverts to either a speed or rage effect again. I guess it's ok if you don't really like either of the effects to begin with. Your powers still seem to work just fine... Awesome damage potential with that class. About the Watchmen: There's nothing wrong with this class if you're looking to progress into something new while staying true to the themes of the sentinel base class. It's not as powerful as weapon master, but weapon master isn't really meant for the sentinel. The abilities of the watchmen accompany the abilities of the sentinel better, though they may not be as powerful as the other prestige classes they are certainly more befitting to their intended base class.

Interesting point about Mira, during my lightside game I was not able to get her past the early flirtations, and figured that lack of awareness may have been the reason why... I also suspected lack of influence may have caused it. She wasn't exactly my first choice to take off the ebon hawk. Which likely further decreased my chances of turning her into a jedi. The other crew members however, were pretty much lined up at the ramp to learn the force. So I'll save her for another game (one which I'm using a sentinel ).

Guardians always swing first, and the immunities are pointless because of this. Enemies have managed to paralyse me once in two full games in TSL. So sentinel immunities are a moot point... Compare them to the amount of times you will use force jump as a guardian, it becomes a muffled moot point. Sentinel/Weapon Master compared to Guardian/Weapon Master is a little more interesting, because with the weapon master's abilities you can gain most of the same feats as a guardian. But you don't get force jump, you don't get the extra light side mastery + 3 attribute bonus to strength. You do get an extra + 3 after you've become a weapon master, but guardians get + 6 total, and that's not something so easily dismissed. Not to mention that when you do go weapon master, some of those skills you've been working so hard at building up are going to stagnate a bit. What I'm saying, even with the extra BAB the sentinel just doesn't add up to the same saber proficiency potential of a guardian, and if you're careful about how you play a guardian- the extra skills are near meaningless. I do agree however, that for pure roleplaying purposes, the sentinel/weapon master may in fact be the best combination in the game. You get a nice mix of everything while still being a strong saber duelist. However, no small part of the fun of playing a guardian is KNOWING that you are like a god with that lightsaber. Which makes it quite the roleplaying experience itself.

I wouldn't go through the trouble, White. Just wait for the inevitable KotOR III. George may let the people have their mods.

Guardians ARE that good though. I just proved it. This is why I don't get why people here complain that they're not worth taking... With a little bit of care taken in which teammates you bring with you- you can play as a guardian and not miss out on anything except for a couple of computers left unhacked on Peragus and a scattered few lines of dialogue that you won't get to see... It's silly. The game's combat isn't even meant to be challenging anyway. It's meant to be fun. And fun it is. So fun I shall have as I slay my foes with master speed, shien form and master power attack!

Don't let the new uses for skill points fool you, when it comes to playing a guardian the best starting stats are still: Str: 14 Dex: 14 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 14 Cha: 14 Just like they were in KotOR I. Put all your attribute bonuses into strength and skill points into persuade and you'll be set. You only get to fill out the one tree of skill points, but you get party members like Bao Dur and T3, who you can use in the situations where there are alot of comps, locked doors and mines to receive the extra experience points from hacking and unlocking, recovering explosives. And, honestly, the use of awareness in dialogue is supposed to be a scattered event, so it's probably best left for another game when you're using a class with some skill points to burn. Everybody seems to be down on the guardian in KotOR II (because the other classes receive the same BAB now, while they still retain their skill points per level, and you can't use force jump until it's maxed out); but I've finished the game twice, (Guardian/Weapon Master 15/13, Guardian/Marauder 15/13) and can tell you straight up that the guardian does in fact still rock. Force jump, once you are able to use it, is definately worth taking the guardian for, period. It's worth waiting for, too. Other classes may have good BAB, but when you're hitting Sion for 330 damage with one swing (I don't mean one round of three to six swings, I mean one hit ) you will realize just how superior the guardian is in saber combat. Alas, where the first game seemed to be biased toward either the guardian or consular, KotOR II does seem to be a bit biased toward the sentinel. And I'm not knocking what they can do for you, especially early on. I just don't think the guardian are as gimped compared to the other classes, as some around here might suggest.

6 x 2 = 12 - 8 = 4 + 9 = 13 / 1 = 13 worked fine for me... And the items are usually worth the math.

If you're playing as a sentinel or a consular then it's probably not a bad idea to train Bao Dur, but if you like to play as a guardian- man, just don't even bother! He is awesome just as the tech guy... Raise his intelligence to 18 and take the feats to cross-train your skills (except persuade, of course) and he can max-out every skill fairly early on. Then, instead of loading him up with items that increase his ability stats- load him up with items that increase his skills past the max. Keep him in your party so he can unlock (or blow open) any door, hack any comp, extract any deadly mines (on goto's yacht he rocks especially). Basically you get a guy bringing you a ton of extra experience, a ton of extra stuff you can sell off (or break down for components), and who can create any item on the workbench. Because of his shock arm he's still pretty good at unarmed combat, which you're not really worried about anyway- because hey, you're a guardian! If you like playing as a guardian, but don't want to miss out on all the benefits of having additional skills. Bao Dur is the key!

It IS a good idea. I like it... Choose your hero and send him flying. Unfortunately that many main characters is unrealistic for the KotOR series. KotOR games are no short ride, man. And just think about the amount of words a main character runs through during the course of their journey. Each of those characters would need a seperate line set for every single dialogue tree in the game. And then for every set there would have to be a seperate set of NPC reactions.. That's just WAY too much dialogue, man. WAY too much.

I agree that there should have been some dialogue about this, but here's the rub... Kreia turned the Ebonhawk into her own personal puppet show. She did get Sion to cut off her hand in order for you to experience it's so-called effect, afterall... So, after the truth was out, were you really still willing to believe it was a real "bond," or just another one- perhaps the source- of her manipulations? If you talk to anyone else about the bond, they are less convinced about it's severity. They seem perplexed by it, rather than frightened of it. The members of the jedi council note it's danger, but don't get freaked out about it. And that made me believe that the bond was expendable. Because the council are also using you- to expose the sith threat to them- it would kind of mess up their plans if you did something stupid, like lay waste to this force bond and in turn waste youself as well. Kreia herself mentions that when they'e fighting together they are both well trained enough in the force to disreguard it's effects... So, should they face each other in combat, wouldn't the same apply? When I first started fighting with her, I checked to see if my swings were doing damage to me too, but I wasn't even slightly surprised to see that they weren't (might've breathed a sigh of relief perhaps, shien form + master power attack would have = OUCH!)...

I definately don't think it's inconsistent... I'd like to think that this was meant to be ironic. A play on the "final confrontation" cliche. That the exile's words meant that he was willing to give up his own life to stop Traya from killing the force... But because "the bond" topic was covered by just about every key player in the game, you are made to believe, even early on, that fatality isn't possible because of it. Which means it's just cheesey "final confrontation" dialogue, and whatever irony you can read into it is just coincidence.