Gromnir

the npcs were "the show" in iwd. that is the whole point. HA! Good Fun!

the absence of a clearly defined protagonist does not necessarily make a game any less linear. iwd was already noted as an example. very linear. is much easier to write characters you know than ones you can only guess

an odd argument. might as well blame tolkien for holdng back d&d and other crpgs, no? regardless, we find that game systems is best when made general... so as to encompass the particular tastes and whims of those playing. in some gothic horror campaigns, strength might indeed be almost superflous, but in others it might be essential. "dracula" is considered a gothic horror story, no? why not make a general system where strength is accounted for and then let individuals making the campaign decide just how important such a stat should be. we prefer d20 and gurps to some other systems 'cause they stress flexibility. we has run d20 and older d20 campaigns that had very little of the "heroes of goodness kick the butt of evil monsters" stuff described above. d&d does not force these themes on you... especially when you make simple adjustment of removing alignment from the game. if Gromnir can do it, then we not think that such stuff is hard... we ain't that bright after all. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

would not solve the problems. kotor was not a port, but it was definitely designed so that similar things could be done by both pc players and console players. consoles is much more limited than pcs. it not matter which platform you design for first if you still got a console ceiling to contend with. HA! Good Fun!

one cannot help but note that the link to fabricated photo takes you to dac. seems kinda odd to us... 'course it is dac. create picture and post and link. awful long way to go for a joke. HA! Good Fun!

"The problem with that is that Joe Schmoe, while not replaying all options, will think highly of the game because there are various options, regardless of them leading everywhere." is not limited to bg fans. fo fans seems to think they gots disproportionate ability to change stuff, but all they do is have fewer essential plot points. sometimes the illusion becomes more powerful than the reality. HA! Good Fun!

start by making the protagonist incidental. sure, some number of your actions should have impact on game, but your moral perspective should not matter, and there should be no attempt to write your character's story. ask a writer to make a game that focuses on a character that he not know and is cautioned

killzig's initial complaint is pointless. we get to his real complaint later in thread when he notes that regardless of choices made, you end up with same results. remove cut scene and give a couple dialogue options and a sneaky option and a combat option. give goodly options and evil options too. not make much difference if there ain't no real impact on game, right? is cut scenes kinda a cheap way for developers to be making sure that you advance a plot point the "right" way? sure, but when looking at real issue rather than the phantom one, we can see that ultimately it would not make much difference with a game like kotor. kotor developers had a goal of recreating the star wars that folks liked... the star wars of the first three movies. so they took the original themes and characters and plot points of star wars original movies and put 'em in kotor. the more you coulda' chosen your own path, the less likely you woulda' been following the star wars recreation that bio was doing... is amazing how many folks just not get it. *shrug* this not mean that you gotta like what bio did. some folks obviously didn't appreciate the forced nostalgia. regardless, given the goal, the approach was appropriate if not necessary. now, as to the immediate and less signifficant issue of cut scenes, we generally prefer freedom of gameplay choices even if it not impact story to any great degree. as between having a cut scene and having a handful of dialogue options, and a sneaky option and a combat option to be accomplishing a goal that will advance plot, we prefer the choices. an occasional cut scene is no big deal as it no doubt makes things much easier for designers, but we thinks that the multiple option approach is good 'cause it allows folks to feel like their individual character builds had a point... give slightly different reward for each resolution and folks is mollified 'nuff not to realize that their choices was ultimately inconsequential. HA! Good Fun!

gonna have a coin toss if you make it to 39? a little too much optimism? HA! Good Fun!

"Being able to write a great story is nice, but it doesn't show that you know how many kobolds belong in a room or what items should be in a shop for a 1st level character (etc). You should learn WHY some levels are popular with people and others aren't." seems like sometimes the designers not know this stuff neither. knowing scripting and modeling won't teach you what gamers likes and why, will it? maybe you has designed pnp games for years... but pnp ain't same as crpg

"I'm trying to send a msg to the computer-store owners (or maybe the publisher) instead. " write them a letter if it makes you feel better. you is stealing, and ultimately it hurts the developer whether you want it to or not. HA! Good Fun!

well, keeping in mind that many of you folks is coming from black isle, a developer that since the summer of 2001 has cancelled more games than it has developed, we ain't surprised by the unique approach taken by obsidian. good luck with that. HA! Good Fun!

and your point? if you can get other games cheaper, then buy them. if western games cost too much, then do not buy them. we like prosciutto di parma. we is willing to pay extra for di parma, but you know what, if prosciutto di parma became too expensive for us to afford we would not steal it no matter how much we like it. is this some bizarre cultural thing? HA! Good Fun!

actually, we understand economics quite well. these are LUXURY items. when the cost of movies increases, people find alternative sources of entertainment. people will not pay more than X for a video game. game companies may find cheaper ways to make games or they may find ways to cut costs, but they cannot simply keep raising price. *shakes head sadly* "You say this as if a Lamborghini dealer would let you test drive the car. The only way you can test drive is if you're definitely buying, and have basically paid downpayment on it." what the heck are you talking 'bout? are you suggesting stealing the lamborghini? if not, then what is the point? the dealer offers you the lamborghini at X price w/o a test drive. you can accept that deal or not. obviously 'nuff folks accept that kinda deal to keep the little italian car maker in business, no? HA! Good Fun!

"Diference Grommir ... diference. "A test drive is the same as a demo, we test the product. "Many games offer a demo, its common that we can rent console games. "We cannot rent PC games (well not legaly under EULA terms) and so we cannot do a "test drive"." no difference. if a car dealer will not let you test drive his cars then you can purchase his cars anyways, or you can take your business elsewhere. DO NOT BUY. why ain't this getting through? if you don't like a company's business practices or products, then do not buy from them. nobody is forcing you to buy cruddy software. you have a choice. you can accept the software company's offer of X game for Y price, or you can simply not purchase. if you don't like their terms, then do not buy... but don't try to tell us that you ain't stealing. HA! Good Fun!

"As for the car-analogy, I suppose you'd like to test-drive it first, much like test-playing a game first. If you couldn't try it out, would you trust an article you read in a car-magazine and buy it anyway?" don't buy the car. if you feel that it is stoopid to buy a car w/o test driving, then do not buy. no doubt many other folks will feel the same as you. if enough folks feel the same way, sales will drop. chances are that eventually the dealer will change behavior. don't buy the game... am not seeing where this is so confusing. HA! Good Fun!

why does your character have to be the main character? make your character incidental to story that way it not so much matter if you is good or bad or insane or stupid. HA! Good Fun!

that is not writing a non-linear story. please read the other thread with virtually the same name to be seeing why. HA! Good Fun!

you do not write a non-linear story. can't be done. the attempt prevents possibility of success. what you can do is create a system or environment where a person is able to experience a story that is non-linear. mmorpgs with a minimum of scripted events. is probably the best example we can come up with. the designer creates a unique environment with its own physics and rules... places some limits on participant actions for purpose of maintaining viability of the environment. allows environment to be populated. then step back and see what happens. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

"PS: Gromnir, that text doesn't teach you how to draw. It tells you what you have to do in order to learn how to draw. " accepting the above as true for the moment, does books of literary criticism tell you what to do in order to learn how to write? HA! Good Fun!

"so why does folks seem to believe that 'cause they understand homer or joyce or proust that they is suddenly gonna be more able to write?" all those books of literary criticism does not teach you how to write. we has admitted already that knowing what an author was doing is a good thing... but that not teach you how to write. and no, english classes does not teach you how to write literature. looks at a text that teaches folks how to draw. is filled with practical exercises on improving technique. you is given step-by-step instructions 'bout how to work in perspective and create texture and form and how to use light and hundreds of other things both mundane and arcane. sit in on a class where folks is learning how to make paintings as 'posed to one where folks is learning 'bout paintings. we bet you can tell the difference 'tween the two in 'bout half a second. so why is it so hard sometimes to tell difference 'tween class that is teaching you how to write as 'posed to a class teaching you 'bout writing? books of literary criticism does not teach the process of writing, does it? HA! Good Fun!

as soon as you explain what you is actually asking for, you may get some responses. you has contradicted self numerous times now. you give examples of stuff like facade, and then you ask 'bout crpgs. ... again, if you want to build a non-linear game, you can looks to mmorpgs, but non-linear storytelling is not same thing. btw, we has suggested tools... hypertext literature is the most common method by which folks has explored notions of non-linear storytelling. you might get some ideas if you looks up various hypertext lit sites and articles. HA! Good Fun!

do a search for literary hypertext. this crap has been 'round for years... and even it ain't truly non-linear. as mc and di and Gromnir and others has been trying to explain, the notion of a non-linear story is not same thing as is allowing you multiple ways to solve problems or quests in games or any such similar thing. *shrug* reason why the issue gets confused is 'cause as we noted from start, the question is confused. HA! Good Fun!

"Dloading a game and testing it, or borrowing it from a friend, maybe copying the CD's, testing it to see if you like it, is as I see it, a necessity." well there you go. is a necessity. if you cannot test, then you won't buy, and if you not buy then publisher is out a sale. what if a car dealer did similar... maybe would not let you test drive cars? what would be your response? steal the car and drive 'round? how exactly do we get to stealing of game from this point? HA! Good Fun!

"Just because I have a computer, doesn't mean I'm filthy rich, and can afford to spend 60-70 US dollars (500 NOK) on a game." then don't buy it. is lots of stuff we want and can't have. maybe you gotta wait til price drops on game you want. maybe instead of getting 4 pc games next year you only get 2. maybe you just not get the damn thing. again... these is luxury items. has nothing to do with rich or poor. is non-essential items that every single one of you can do without. steal such an item is inexcusable as far as we can see. HA! Good Fun!