Gromnir

is a problem from gameplay standpoint... 'cause the non-jedi classes ain't anywhere near as powerful as the jedi. would have had many complaints. 'course, d20 star wars is partly to blame. folks howl that blasters is nerfed... but truth is that jedi lightsabre wielders is nerfed much more by comparison. 15 levels of jedi class(seems to be the average numbers of jedi levels taken by players,) means that you is doing something like 5d8 hp of damage with a lightsabre in the d20 system... which is nuts. blasters is nerfed in kotor so that at start of game you not die in every early battle 'gainst a blaster wielding foe. lightsabres was nerfed in kotor 'cause they is stupid powerful in the hands of a jedi... but even so, with force powers being reserved for jedi, many gameplay changes would have to be made. actually, we was pretty impressed with much of the d20 REVISED star wars rules.(never saw the original, but we hear they was offal/awful.) with jedi powers being skills as 'posed to powers as in kotor, it takes only a few adjustments to be making pnp jedi classes less munchkin. also results in all the abilities scores actually being useful... min/max point-buy is much less likely gonna result with legions of 8 int jedi walking 'round. as for story... gotta change lots of stuff on dantooine, and some dialogues on a few other planets... but you not determine difficulty of writing story by asking what changes would have to be made looking back on a finished story arc. would not have been much work to deal with story if game had been designed from start to allow you freedom of choice with the classes. basic plot changes very little. the changes to preserve gameplay balance would seem to have been much more difficult for a developer than story elements. however, other than a relatively small number of role-play fanatics, how many players would honestly have NOT chosen a jedi class their first time through kotor or any other star wars game? Gromnir woulda' enjoyed playing such a character at some point, and so would many obsidian posters... but it is hardly an option that a significant number of players is gonna use... and the number of first time players who made use of such an option would be infinitesimal. wasted resources. bio has, over the years, designed games to appeal to the Average Gamer. this seems to result in games that is widely popular and commercially successful

you keep mentioning games we hasn't played http://faqs.ign.com/articles/495/495769p1.html "They return to Balamb Garden with Edea and Rinoa's comatose body. "Back in Balamb Gaden, a worried Squall lies on his bed running over the events. Quistis suggests they visit Edea's house where she and Cid now are. Squall firsts stops off to see Rinoa and is saddened by her state. he then goes to Edea's house, which was also their old orphanage, accompanied by Quistis, Zell, Selphie and Irvine. There Cid apologizes for his indecisiveness, explaining how torn he was between destroying Sorceress Edea, but losing his wife for ever, or keeping Sorceress Edea alive in the hope Edea Kramer could be saved but at the risk of the rest of the world being endangered by the Sorceress. Edea explains how she was under the control of Ultemecia all this time and how Ultimecia now intends to resurrect Adel, a former Sorceress who once ruled Esthar. With Edea unsure of why Rinoa is in a coma, it is decided Ellone must be found to help them. "back in Garden, Squall announces that Edea is not the enemy anymore and should be left alone, Cid will also be staying with her. They all then decide to search for the White SeeD ship. Squall then goes back to see Rinoa and becomes a bit overwhelmed with the strength of his feelings for her. He slumps forward and into another dream..." yes, enthralling stuff. considering ff popularity with teens, we must be missing something in translation... but you type "rinoa-squall coma" into google and see what comes up for you. mentions the coma and dream sequences... and please keep in mind that you can't have a reaction to a coma 'less somebody is in a coma. the whole point of the clich

the real fun part of this thread is recognizing those folks who was complaining 'bout bis plan to make super mutants and ghouls player character race options for fo3, but is now complaining that kotor/kotor2 protagonist must be human. HA! Good Fun!

btw, one of these days we is gonna get around to writing our book 'bout Fritz Haber... now there is a great model for a crpg villain... is german too so he gots an evil accent already. HA! Good Fun!

comas and dream sequences is a good way to do romances? ... no wonder we has a hard time finding common ground on what constitutes "maturity" in games. personally, we prefer the ravel and nameless one stuff... particularly when tno returns to sigil and confronts mebbeth/ravel in her hut in the hive. HA! Good Fun!

watch/read, "Deliverance." HA! Good Fun! p.s. we prefer our redneck "villains" to be something more akin to, "The Great Santini," but that wouldn't really work in a crpg.

newc observations is generally true, but a bit of an overstatement... in virtually all american ww2 movies, the nazis is all brits. why? probably 'cause most americans couldn't tell the difference 'tween a british accent and a german accent... but we all know that non-americans tends towards evil. besides which, there is very few noteworthy german actors. heck, otto preminger cast himself in stalag 17 for chrissakes. back in the 40s and 50s even the french characters was usually brits... we suspect that this was just a way to let us all know that the character in question was Foreign. when lucas did his star wars flicks and recreated nazis, he cast numerous english folks. is no hard and fast rule though... gladiator, for instance, cast an american as the sneeky villain, and an aussie as the hero. 'course, brando doing mark antony still makes us chuckle a bit. am not sure what accent gary oldman was going for in The Fifth element, but it weren't brit. is no real rules... is something that probaly started as a matter of convenience, and then folks begun to expect it... go figure. HA! Good Fun! p.s. "I do not contest this; though this is one of the reasons I dislike the Star Wars universe, I will accept this as a fact it is. However, this is not the problem in the KOTOR series. The problem is that Bioware has never realised what "evil" really is. " untrue. bioware simply took evil as it were portrayed in the origianl star wars movies... and recreated.

tob felt rushed to you? ok, if you say so. tob had more new material and detail than any other expansion we can name

Like pretty much most of Bioware work to me ... 'cause the first thing that comes to mind when you thinks of BG2 is that it feels like it was rushed. HA! and no doubt some kids equate a mature rating with maturity, but that is not Gromnir's way of thinking. regardless, drak is free to voice his opinion... and each time he does so we feel a little less guilty 'bout dismissing him so readily. HA! Good Fun!

am not sure how the biowarians came to embrace their current romance model. you gots these tangential romance stories that seems to be lifted from comic books or teen tv soap operas

"When they commited their evil deeds, they didn't describe in intimate detail how perverse and cruel and nasty they were, randomly throwing in adjectives like 'pathetic' and 'worthless' to describe pretty much everything simply to show how mean they were." not get your point. vader walks in on leia with a with a torture device. we see the remains luke's family, slaughtered by stormtroopers in one of the most grisly scenes of the entire film, admiral announces that a planets is destroyed to make a point. the emperor tries to goad luke into attacking, and announces the imminent death of his friends to accomplish this. etc. "When they commited their evil deeds, they didn't describe in intimate detail how perverse and cruel and nasty they were, randomly throwing in adjectives like 'pathetic' and 'worthless' to describe pretty much everything simply to show how mean they were. "If they did, it would've been pretty lame." as noted above, they did on more than one occasion... the absence of specific dialogue is hardly meaningful. you not have actors in a game who can be subtle. you not got great camera work or direction and you only can work in so many cutscenes and they is rarely is detailed 'nuff to have the same impact as something on film. you got loads of dialogue though. a game is gonna convey story through dialogue. compare the amount of dialogue in The Grapes of Wrath book v. movie. is lot less dialogue in the movie, no? is not just a matter of length neither. *shrug* so it ain't that all of the sith was spouting their evil rhatoric, but you thought too many did. when an admiral balks an order to destroy a planet in kotor or when you meet an archeoligist more interested in knowledge than power or when you convince a student that the sith way ain't all that it is cracked up to be, or when you meet any number of sith on taris who, whether it be in bars or in the undercity, who just seem to be following orders rather than having AGENDAS OF EVIL, then you see as exceptions proving a point? okie dokie. HA! Good Fun! p.s. "I don't think this point is being missed by anyone" was a comment by phosphor... we was being economical by responding to both o you in one post.

btw, it seems that folks still is missing the point of irenicus... but that fault is mostly the fault of the biowarians. his motivations was hardly as simple and clich

"Even with Darth Vader and the Emperor, dialogue spoken with no purpose but to show how 'evil' they were was the exception rather than the rule. " oh come now... that ain't true and you know it. the dialogues and scenes with the emperor and darth vader was almost exclusively included to show us just how nasty they was. dress 'em up in black and play ominous music, and have them torture folks or reveal plans to kill/hurt the hero's loved ones and friends. "The Sith can represent evil without having every last Sith trooper long only to kick puppies and launch children into orbit unprotected." is hardly accurate. is a number of folks on korriban that not fit this description including archeologists and students and prospective student, so try not to be overstating for effect... diminishes your point. "I don't think this point is being missed by anyone" really? sure seems that way. go read some reviews or maybe check out some threads at bio or here or codex. if you have folks saying, "why are the villains and heroes in kotor so stereotypical," when the reason "why" is so damnably obvious, then we cannot help but think that some folks has missed something. look at reviews and threads here and elsewhere that talk 'bout how unoriginal kotor story and characters was. why is the kotor villains and heroes so stereotypical? answer:

"With that in mind, I'm not sure I'd want them to stop using a formula that, for whatever reason, worked for me personally." yeah, but the formula is also a trap. can kotor2 do what kotor did... can it simply give us a recreation of star wars characters and plot and themes? the obsidians have a great opportunity with kotor2... they is gonna be developing one of the most anticipated titles of the year, and Gromnir don't think they has the luxury of being able to take advantage of bioware's simple (albeit very clever and undeniably efficacious) approach to story elements. obsidian is going to have to do something different... or maybe not... kotor was a game that despite so many seeming flaws, succeeded with an overwhelming number of folks... gestalt. example: combat was very easy and poorly balanced, but it had a kewl factor for most peoples that made it enjoyable... and the cinematic aspect of combat (something that necessarily limited its tactical appeal,) further bolstered the feeling of nostalgia that seemed to be the main goal of the game. lightsabre combats was looking like movie lightsabre combats 'nuff to make folks get that warm and fuzzy feeling they gets when they recalls first having seen such battles on the Big Screen... which was reinforced by the story aspects. would a turn-based kotor with overhead perspective have been able to create a nostalgic glow in folks as they watched one of their party avatars move forward 4 hexes and then take a single swipe with their lightsabre? so

not gonna get started on sauron/grendel kinda antagonists... not worth asking why dragons is malevolent and horde gold. as to kotor and simple Good v. Evil characters... duh. the star wars movies used the traditional archetypical characters and plots and themes. kotor brazenly, unapologetically, and successfully recreated what many folks liked

try not to fib. in another thread you made some generalizations 'bout folks who seemed to be 'gainst applying d&d rules to crpg games... and when Gromnir asked you to give some specific examples of folks representative of your bizarre generalizations, you could not do so... probably 'cause no such people ever existed. regardless, it was your reasoning that was twisted and flawed and that is why we bring up in this thread

took how many pages last time we dealt with you to make you see that your observation that folks 'gainst d&d rules was not necessarily 'gainst more options in a crpg? am not gonna spend similar 'mount of text showing how silly you is again being in present thread. no performance by Gromnir... am too tired to go through that kina effort again. hey kid, you win. congrats. HA! Good Fun!

someone called morrowind compelling? i wish i had bought that version then. the story in my copy was so uncompelling i stopped playing before i found out what it was. well, keep in mind that the person who called fallout and morrowind compelling also noted that compelling story is purely subjective... after he notes that compelling story ain't difficult to add to a game with complete freedom of character development. ... is reason why we lost interest in thread as a whole. HA! Good Fun! p.s. case studies is very important when dealing with extreme examples o' early childhood development as nobody ever has raised a child in complete isolation... and we hopes they never does. we depend on unfortunate accidents and monstrous behavior to supply us with some small handful of examples of what happens to a child raised in isolation.

i've no idea how this matters to your argument - i can barely figure out who is arguing what any more - but fyi a child 'raised' in complete isolation wouldn't be a blank slate - they'd be a complete and utter vegetable that would be incapable of having a personality in the first place. not exactly what you'd call great roleplaying material. just a thought. http://www.feralchildren.com/en/language.php genie, in particular, is a good read. girl was raised in near total isolation. was not a complete veggie, but she never was able to grasp basic grammar. as to z... if fallout and morrowind is your examples of compelling stories focused on protagonist, 'specially w/o any explanation as to how they is compelling and protagonist focused, then yeah, you is spouting nonsense and do not deserve the effort we has spent on replies. simply say that such things is "subjective," is no more than noise... a flatulent for punctuation maybe? is also not good to assume that Gromnir and sp is sharing same argument.. might be part of your problem. HA! Good Fun!

with a larger world you necessarily need more such encounters, and as frank's encounters is already obviously more work to implement than the mundane vanilla encounters... and the circle begins again. the more complex you make, the fewer you can include. the more you include, the less complex they can be. ask developers how much stuff they has had to leave out of games in past. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

and additional balancing concerns, and additional dialogues as well... and additional bug testing too. is not just a simple matter of adding in a simple script.

am not sure how your use of argumentum ad populum reduces the irony of your initial statement. was you grammatically correct when you said, "Gronmir, notsomuch. How's the grammar problem coming along?" both of those sentences is flawed, no? then what is you complaining 'bout? is ironic that person complaining of another person's grammar would make so many grammatical errors in one short post. HA! Good Fun!

I know you're an intelligent person, so when you tell the truth, I usually have no problems with what you say, but honestly, your idea that i'm confused or something, comes off as an empty and pointless statement, and your refusal to explain your motivation for quoting what i said earlier and make a fuss out of it makes me wonder if this isn't mere trolling. You were the one who told me to "take my time"... getting itchy? Surely you forgot the part where i stated that "compelling" is subjective? Wait you didn't forgot - you simply dismissed it as an excuse. Convenient. are not even replying to our posts no more... is just complaining that we is mean and then you spouts ridiculously meaningless statements. oh well... as soon as you learns to pay attention, we will respond. HA! Good Fun!

"Gronmir, notsomuch. How's the grammar problem coming along?" irony defined. HA! Good Fun!

"Maybe Grommy is right and the problem is you dont even know what concept you are arguing against.. " exactly. poor fella is kinda confused. *shrug* am still wiating for his story... or at least an example of a game where you gots a compelling story focused on a protagonist that can be anything. claims that he gave examples... but we sure not see any. surely wasn't suggesting that morrowind or fallout fit the bill? again, is easy to make silly claims w/o even trying to back up. write us a story. not have to be detailed... just give us the dust jacket version. HA! Good Fun!