Gromnir

Give me a reason why I should even bother. Its got nothing to do with what was being talked about, and is unrelated to the entire conversation, at least from my side. Too bad that for a change, i did clarify and people didn't understood. But hey, I'm getting used to it, so don't feel bad. And if you've never seen character development being handled by players, i can only suggest you'd play more games. why should you do it? why, because you said it were not hard. so do it. you is acting as if the tendency of developers to make characters with more defined backgrounds is an issue separate from story... and they is not. must ask why a developer would give more limited character development to a player. write compelling story for a character that can be anything. you is back to complaining that you is misunderstood... and you is not. you just don't understand the issue. makes others have to work twice as hard if they wish to keep discussing with you. HA! Good Fun!

"I probably could, with the appropriate time invested into it, but then, not only is "compelling" subjective, but I honestly doubt you're speaking seriously, so excuse me if I also don't take the "homework" seriously." no excuses... just do it. "Regardless, what I wrote was about character development, which is possible of happening outside strict story-driven aspects. " too bad you made remarks in direct response to sp comments 'bout story aspects... and unless you clarify much, what you is asking for has not really ever been done. complete freedom to define character and compelling story... ain't ever seen that. HA! Good Fun!

"Defining a character is always, or should always be, dependant of what the player decides." fair 'nuff. now, here is your task: write a compelling story with a protagonist who is not only the main character but is alternately a neutral/elven/female/druid or a chaotic evil/halfling/male/bard or a lawful good/dwarven/female/fighter. furthermore, you is not to place any demands on that protagonist to advance the story in a particular direction. take your time

actually, despite the tendency of developers to let stuff slip, it won't be official

"Imagine if killing enough orcs in random encounters leads to rewards from local lords, or if the orcs start to take notice and increase their numbers and bring spell casters and chieftans on their raids. Maybe what looked like a good thing leads to higher prices at merchants because the suddenly more brutal orc parties are raising the cost caravan guards. From a design perspective, this looks more difficult than it is...it isn't." what exactly does your example prove? seems to show us how you can cram more complex and intriguing quests into less space. recalls the encounters in bg2 where if you continued to cast spells in amn you would get attacked by increasingly tough opponents? nothing new you suggest. and not seem to require a bigger world with greater freedom to explore non-essential areas at all... quite the contrary in fact. is a good way to get more stuff into a smaller and more limited world. *shrug* regardless, we thinks it is kinda silly to suggest that a complex situation where random encounters with orc bandits leads to increasingly tough encounters and where local merchants and politicians reacts different to you based on how you deal with such encounters is being no more complicated or time consuming to develop than some insular bandit encounter in the woods. we hate being the voice o' common sense... just seems so... wrong. HA! Good Fun!

not see no point to "openness" unless there is something worth doing at a majority of those non-essential locations. you can have a huge and sprawling world that you can explore at your leisure, but if 99.9% of encounters is dull or repetitious then why should we care that we could spend 40 hours of game time just walking from one pointless location to the next. a handful of orcs who jump you in the middle of nowheres

in what way? deus ex machina still not got nothing to do with the protagonist being focus or not. stealing the show and deus ex machina is somehow the same thing in a person's mind? the only show in iwd was the npc stories... reliance on deus ex machina not seem to have a real point. as to final fantasy references... they is lost on Gromnir. *shrug* oh, and as to pointing out that the npcs have more developed stories even in games where ther protagonist is the focus... well that gets a big "duh," too from Gromnir. not know how many times we has noted that it is easier to write npcs 'cause they is static and not dependent on a player who may have radically different playing styles. the fact that npc (especially villains) Steal the Show of game stories even in games where the protagonist is the focus further proves out our point, not his. HA! Good Fun!

"Amazon was just "oh look at me, I am a Amazon" that had no more impact of "I am doing this" and she does not push the story along more that doing stuff." duh. Gromnir already noted that with such protagonists the story follows the protagonist, but it actually developed by the npcs. ... 'course, you disagreed with this earlier... brought up some silly notion 'bout deus ex machina. with way you seem to reverse self and miss obvious it should be Gromnir posting those repeated question marks. HA! Good Fun!

"And Grommir I know the diference, Squall is a defined character as the "Amazon" of Diablo 2 is not." but you not seem to get how they is used different in developing story. how very sad. btw, if you read your star wars stuff 'gain, you will see how you contradict self a few times. you notes all the lame xbox titles and observe that kotor breaking records is no biggie... but recalls how you mentioned how well star wars games always does? was more than a couple xbox star wars games out on the xbox, no? *shrug* personal anecdotes 'bout box art is hardly evidence that ps:t marketing was bad. as to your conspiracy theories 'bout alphas and betas... HA! please show us links to stories in gaming media that warned folks away from ps:t. one reason ps:t was such a disappointment from a commercial perspective was that it was a major release. bis spent big money advertising ps:t. loads of print adverts and all kinds of pre-release stories and interviews and swag. blame on marketing? ps:t was a buggy mess that not give players any opportunity to alter their character's appearance. it was set in a d&d world that most gamers was unfamiliar with and seemingly unwilling to explore. additionally, game was very text heavy and had crappy combat. is a surprise that game did as well as it did. the game was loved by some folks, but there was more than a few good reasons for the average player to dislike or even hate ps:t. blame on marketing is a cop out if ever we heard one. HA! Good Fun!

post before krazy does, or all is lost. as for nwn and pause... qa is a process that started long time before game shipped. this is not uncommon. is not like they hold off on qa until they gots a final build. regardless, you folks can keep arguing exact dates on pause and at same time simply ignore epic levels and PrCs and drow/underdark stuff and robes, and the literally hundreds of things we seen added to bio games at fan behest, or you can try to distinguish each of those things individually and find some bizarre excuse for why bio woulda' added anyway w/o no fan input. for one or two items you can rationalize to yourself... but how you can do with so many other things is requiring some powers of self delusion that is far beyond Gromnir. HA! Good Fun!

"You can argue that was "fan demand" but I argued to death about including it in BIS forums and it was no included back then." and of course nwn was released shortly after bio opened their own boards. ... no? krazy can't help making lies, but we expect more from the less fraudulent folks out there in tv land. did it take a long time to add pause? did bio initially think it was worth the effort? did bio initially resist? answers is obvious. fact that bio eventually caves to fan pleadings was also obvious. krazy now makes up some imagined qa thing... no more support for that than anything else he claims... just as he imagined all kinds o' wonderful stuff with thiefy dw. is nothing new. hotu is little more than a response to all the fan pleadings. was qa responsible for getting epic levels into hotu? bio said that epic levels weren't worth the zots neither. is krazy gonna come up with some equally unlikely and unsupported notion concerning that feature? for chrissakes, the biowarians even brought aribeth back from the dead 'cause of all the hard-up geeklings who complained that they couldn't really romance her in nwn. the things asked for most often on the nwn boards for the expansions was epic levels, PrCs, drow/underdark stuff. 'course, people also asked for spellcasting PrCs... and they not get. is that 'cause bio ignores fans or 'cause bio made a choice that the effort weren't worth the payoff? folks is trying to have both ways. bio ignores fans and they is jerks. bio gives folks what they want, but they is jerks when they do so. silly. HA! Good Fun!

what makes you think you hit a nerve? is good advice that you can take or not. star wars games always sell? you might wanna check on that. regardless, kotor brtoke every xbox record, including some previous star wars titles. so, marketing killed ps:t? what hogwash. got anything to back that up? you ain't making them baby steps no more... seemed to have lost you 'gain. for a moment you was seeming to get the essential difference 'tween games with identifiable protagonists and ones without... then you lost again. 'least there is no getting side-tracked with deus ex machina again. HA! Good Fun!

"cameos" not make what you has said any less silly, so we not see point. did kotor sell? did ps:t sell? we has noted many times that ps:t is our favorite crpg, but one of the common complaints from folks who didn't like ps:t was that they felt like they was playing bis' character rather than their own character. tiffin makes this comment often 'nuff... but again, we is just repeating what Gromnir has already stated. *shrug* try to come up with some new material. others have tried the cameo bit and it has never worked well for them. HA! Good Fun!

krazy either has bad memory... or is just flat out lying. you take pick. *shrug* pause was added 'cause of qa? HA! no doubt you was working at bio to be knowing this? di and others will recall when and how pause was added, so this little fib we not really need to address. oh, and even your pet sargy recalls us asking for an intelligent, talking and crazy sword for bg2... though he seems to be confused in that he recalls us being angry at results. maybe you two kids should get together and come up with a common fabrication. the sword thing seemed like a relatively simple addition and it made our top ten list that we posted numerous times... a list that included rust monsters and slaad and powerful critter's Gate ability, fewer empty and useless areas, and better npc dialogues, 'mongst other things. lots of other folks made similar requests... which is one reason why bio did away with empty and useless areas, and why npc dialogues was further developed. wasn't 'cause Gromnir asked... was 'cause lots of folks asked for similar things. rust monsters not make it 'cause takes lots of effort to give all objects a metallic or non-metallic quality. we not under some kinda delusion that biowarians was ignoring a requested critter just 'cause they is jerks. what ego to be thinking that just

"Of course the characters are left in a blank state, they are for the players to fill in." which is why the protagonist in such a game ain't near as important for story development than is the npcs. round and round we go... funny that the "half-baked" system sold so well. the hybrid choice seemed to satisfy folks who wanted both a chance to customize their character and the folks who wanted their character, the protagonist, to be the focus of story. is tough to do both, but most folks seem unsatisfied with either extreme. well, at least you has dropped the deus ex machina bit. baby steps we is making. HA! Good Fun!

talk 'bout ego. 'cause they didn't put in what YOU wanted, then you thinks that fans was ignored. HA! Gromnir wanted an intelligent and Crazy Chaotic Neutral sword that would have dialogues with party as comic relief. could bio come up with a similar thing on their own? sure they coulda'. doesn't change fact that we got what we wanted. another example... bio said for months and months that they weren't gonna put a strategic pause in nwn... noted that as game was designed for mp that strategic pause not work so well. eventually enough folks asked for pause and they end up getting pause. sorry, but the guy suffering from ego is krazy. he not get what he want, so bio is bad. what a joke. HA! Good Fun!

exactly. krazy seems to now be suggesting that 'cause all the suggestions ain't used in games that bio is ignoring the fans... which is just as silly as his "thief" or "uncaring" silliness spouted earlier. HA! Good Fun!

"The intervention of the PCs is necessary to achieve the end result - and they do have to make moral choices along the way." never denied that... but your character is never defined, and is still largely incidental to story. how does your character give us a look at the human condition? what themes is explored with your character? describe your character and his story. oh, and by the way, you actions is not really necessary to achieve no end result... at least not in any meaningful way. this goes back to showing us just how linear iwd was, 'cause you can choose whatever responses you want and they won't make no difference in iwd, will they? main plot points occur regardless of how you respond... you is simply a witness to what is occurring in game, and you know it. btw, bg is a party-based game, and so is kotor. you has a party in both those games, and in kotor you is even forced to take along certain characters for a time. not change fact that there is also a clearly identifiable protagonist. was Gorion's Ward or Revan or TNO who we was following and discovering. they sure as heck was party-based games though. "but I think to suggest that Icewind Dale should have been sub-titled "Baelephet" is a bit far- fetched (although playing him would have made an interesting game!)." we guess you didn't like the title, "Moby ****?" heck, the Dragon in MD was far less involved in development of story than was belhifet in iwd.... though what that would have to do with playing the dragon/whale in a game is seeming like kinda an unrelated issue. regardless, the villain/antagonist is often the title character in stories. HA! Good Fun!

sorry chum, but the only stories being told in iwd is npc stories... the protagonist advances the story while remaining incidental. describe the protagonist. HA! Good Fun!

"robes inclusion was not because the fans requested it," actually, that was precisely the reason. there is literally thousands of things that individual fans have done with nwn that have not made it into a commercial product... robes was requested daily... as was epic levels and prestige classes. btw, Gromnir also asked for slaad and intelligent/crazy swords, and killer mimics, more sympathetic villains, morally ambiguous quests and a bunch o' other things. HA! Good Fun!

"They don't listen to fans, fans been askin for pointy hats and robes for 5 years." robes. r-o-b-e-s. get it? that is one right there... and guess which finger we is using. we can count the number of suggestions that bioware has taken from Gromnir alone since bg1... and we needs more than five fingers to be counting 'em all. HA! Good Fun!

describe the protagonist. ... bitter and cold kresselack. foolish larrel. the eternal conflict of yuxonemi and belhifet. everard's test of faith. whatever heroism and tragedy you finds in the iwd story, it comes from the npcs. in ps:t and kotor we know the protagonist. the protagonist has a history and there is folks who recognize your character. the story of kotor and ps:t is the story of the protagonist... which is a tough trick considering that almost every player is gonna play the game a little different. HA! Good Fun!

krazy is confused. is only short time fans has been asking for robes... 'cause they had robes in bg and totsc and bg2. only nwn and sou does we not have robes. regardless, with krazy reasoning bio can't win. if they use suggestion then they is thieves and if they don't then they is ignoring fans. ridiculous. *shrug* krazy will twist however he wants. HA! Good Fun!

you said "Unless they pulled a deus ex machina it would be hard to any NPC to "steal the show" in that game," correct? do you even read your own posts? you distinguished from deus ex machina... though you does shoot self in foot by noting possibly the biggest example of deus ex machina in an ie game... your exception pretty much invalidates your generalization. again, the npcs WERE the show in iwd. it was their stories we followed. the protagonist/party was involved in pivotal events, but the npcs was the pivotal characters. it was their show, and the protagonist/party was largely incidental. HA! Good Fun!

bah. di, don't listen to 'em... the biowarians biggest mistake is that they listen to the fans far too much. they try to make everybody happy rather than building the best game they can. reason why they waste so much effort on something as minor as robes in HotU weren't 'cause anybody at bioware thought robes was a good use of resources. most biowarians we know weren't really in favor of trying to get epic levels into HotU neither. bio keeps listening to the fans, and the fans is always asking for silly and often contradictory stuff. heck, they still spend much effort trying to explain stuff to the slower members of the community