Gromnir

"Of course the characters are left in a blank state, they are for the players to fill in." which is why the protagonist in such a game ain't near as important for story development than is the npcs. round and round we go... funny that the "half-baked" system sold so well. the hybrid choice seemed to satisfy folks who wanted both a chance to customize their character and the folks who wanted their character, the protagonist, to be the focus of story. is tough to do both, but most folks seem unsatisfied with either extreme. well, at least you has dropped the deus ex machina bit. baby steps we is making. HA! Good Fun!

talk 'bout ego. 'cause they didn't put in what YOU wanted, then you thinks that fans was ignored. HA! Gromnir wanted an intelligent and Crazy Chaotic Neutral sword that would have dialogues with party as comic relief. could bio come up with a similar thing on their own? sure they coulda'. doesn't change fact that we got what we wanted. another example... bio said for months and months that they weren't gonna put a strategic pause in nwn... noted that as game was designed for mp that strategic pause not work so well. eventually enough folks asked for pause and they end up getting pause. sorry, but the guy suffering from ego is krazy. he not get what he want, so bio is bad. what a joke. HA! Good Fun!

exactly. krazy seems to now be suggesting that 'cause all the suggestions ain't used in games that bio is ignoring the fans... which is just as silly as his "thief" or "uncaring" silliness spouted earlier. HA! Good Fun!

"The intervention of the PCs is necessary to achieve the end result - and they do have to make moral choices along the way." never denied that... but your character is never defined, and is still largely incidental to story. how does your character give us a look at the human condition? what themes is explored with your character? describe your character and his story. oh, and by the way, you actions is not really necessary to achieve no end result... at least not in any meaningful way. this goes back to showing us just how linear iwd was, 'cause you can choose whatever responses you want and they won't make no difference in iwd, will they? main plot points occur regardless of how you respond... you is simply a witness to what is occurring in game, and you know it. btw, bg is a party-based game, and so is kotor. you has a party in both those games, and in kotor you is even forced to take along certain characters for a time. not change fact that there is also a clearly identifiable protagonist. was Gorion's Ward or Revan or TNO who we was following and discovering. they sure as heck was party-based games though. "but I think to suggest that Icewind Dale should have been sub-titled "Baelephet" is a bit far- fetched (although playing him would have made an interesting game!)." we guess you didn't like the title, "Moby ****?" heck, the Dragon in MD was far less involved in development of story than was belhifet in iwd.... though what that would have to do with playing the dragon/whale in a game is seeming like kinda an unrelated issue. regardless, the villain/antagonist is often the title character in stories. HA! Good Fun!

sorry chum, but the only stories being told in iwd is npc stories... the protagonist advances the story while remaining incidental. describe the protagonist. HA! Good Fun!

"robes inclusion was not because the fans requested it," actually, that was precisely the reason. there is literally thousands of things that individual fans have done with nwn that have not made it into a commercial product... robes was requested daily... as was epic levels and prestige classes. btw, Gromnir also asked for slaad and intelligent/crazy swords, and killer mimics, more sympathetic villains, morally ambiguous quests and a bunch o' other things. HA! Good Fun!

"They don't listen to fans, fans been askin for pointy hats and robes for 5 years." robes. r-o-b-e-s. get it? that is one right there... and guess which finger we is using. we can count the number of suggestions that bioware has taken from Gromnir alone since bg1... and we needs more than five fingers to be counting 'em all. HA! Good Fun!

describe the protagonist. ... bitter and cold kresselack. foolish larrel. the eternal conflict of yuxonemi and belhifet. everard's test of faith. whatever heroism and tragedy you finds in the iwd story, it comes from the npcs. in ps:t and kotor we know the protagonist. the protagonist has a history and there is folks who recognize your character. the story of kotor and ps:t is the story of the protagonist... which is a tough trick considering that almost every player is gonna play the game a little different. HA! Good Fun!

krazy is confused. is only short time fans has been asking for robes... 'cause they had robes in bg and totsc and bg2. only nwn and sou does we not have robes. regardless, with krazy reasoning bio can't win. if they use suggestion then they is thieves and if they don't then they is ignoring fans. ridiculous. *shrug* krazy will twist however he wants. HA! Good Fun!

you said "Unless they pulled a deus ex machina it would be hard to any NPC to "steal the show" in that game," correct? do you even read your own posts? you distinguished from deus ex machina... though you does shoot self in foot by noting possibly the biggest example of deus ex machina in an ie game... your exception pretty much invalidates your generalization. again, the npcs WERE the show in iwd. it was their stories we followed. the protagonist/party was involved in pivotal events, but the npcs was the pivotal characters. it was their show, and the protagonist/party was largely incidental. HA! Good Fun!

bah. di, don't listen to 'em... the biowarians biggest mistake is that they listen to the fans far too much. they try to make everybody happy rather than building the best game they can. reason why they waste so much effort on something as minor as robes in HotU weren't 'cause anybody at bioware thought robes was a good use of resources. most biowarians we know weren't really in favor of trying to get epic levels into HotU neither. bio keeps listening to the fans, and the fans is always asking for silly and often contradictory stuff. heck, they still spend much effort trying to explain stuff to the slower members of the community

the npcs were "the show" in iwd. that is the whole point. HA! Good Fun!

the absence of a clearly defined protagonist does not necessarily make a game any less linear. iwd was already noted as an example. very linear. is much easier to write characters you know than ones you can only guess

an odd argument. might as well blame tolkien for holdng back d&d and other crpgs, no? regardless, we find that game systems is best when made general... so as to encompass the particular tastes and whims of those playing. in some gothic horror campaigns, strength might indeed be almost superflous, but in others it might be essential. "dracula" is considered a gothic horror story, no? why not make a general system where strength is accounted for and then let individuals making the campaign decide just how important such a stat should be. we prefer d20 and gurps to some other systems 'cause they stress flexibility. we has run d20 and older d20 campaigns that had very little of the "heroes of goodness kick the butt of evil monsters" stuff described above. d&d does not force these themes on you... especially when you make simple adjustment of removing alignment from the game. if Gromnir can do it, then we not think that such stuff is hard... we ain't that bright after all. *shrug* HA! Good Fun!

would not solve the problems. kotor was not a port, but it was definitely designed so that similar things could be done by both pc players and console players. consoles is much more limited than pcs. it not matter which platform you design for first if you still got a console ceiling to contend with. HA! Good Fun!

one cannot help but note that the link to fabricated photo takes you to dac. seems kinda odd to us... 'course it is dac. create picture and post and link. awful long way to go for a joke. HA! Good Fun!

"The problem with that is that Joe Schmoe, while not replaying all options, will think highly of the game because there are various options, regardless of them leading everywhere." is not limited to bg fans. fo fans seems to think they gots disproportionate ability to change stuff, but all they do is have fewer essential plot points. sometimes the illusion becomes more powerful than the reality. HA! Good Fun!

start by making the protagonist incidental. sure, some number of your actions should have impact on game, but your moral perspective should not matter, and there should be no attempt to write your character's story. ask a writer to make a game that focuses on a character that he not know and is cautioned

killzig's initial complaint is pointless. we get to his real complaint later in thread when he notes that regardless of choices made, you end up with same results. remove cut scene and give a couple dialogue options and a sneaky option and a combat option. give goodly options and evil options too. not make much difference if there ain't no real impact on game, right? is cut scenes kinda a cheap way for developers to be making sure that you advance a plot point the "right" way? sure, but when looking at real issue rather than the phantom one, we can see that ultimately it would not make much difference with a game like kotor. kotor developers had a goal of recreating the star wars that folks liked... the star wars of the first three movies. so they took the original themes and characters and plot points of star wars original movies and put 'em in kotor. the more you coulda' chosen your own path, the less likely you woulda' been following the star wars recreation that bio was doing... is amazing how many folks just not get it. *shrug* this not mean that you gotta like what bio did. some folks obviously didn't appreciate the forced nostalgia. regardless, given the goal, the approach was appropriate if not necessary. now, as to the immediate and less signifficant issue of cut scenes, we generally prefer freedom of gameplay choices even if it not impact story to any great degree. as between having a cut scene and having a handful of dialogue options, and a sneaky option and a combat option to be accomplishing a goal that will advance plot, we prefer the choices. an occasional cut scene is no big deal as it no doubt makes things much easier for designers, but we thinks that the multiple option approach is good 'cause it allows folks to feel like their individual character builds had a point... give slightly different reward for each resolution and folks is mollified 'nuff not to realize that their choices was ultimately inconsequential. HA! Good Fun!

gonna have a coin toss if you make it to 39? a little too much optimism? HA! Good Fun!

"Being able to write a great story is nice, but it doesn't show that you know how many kobolds belong in a room or what items should be in a shop for a 1st level character (etc). You should learn WHY some levels are popular with people and others aren't." seems like sometimes the designers not know this stuff neither. knowing scripting and modeling won't teach you what gamers likes and why, will it? maybe you has designed pnp games for years... but pnp ain't same as crpg

"I'm trying to send a msg to the computer-store owners (or maybe the publisher) instead. " write them a letter if it makes you feel better. you is stealing, and ultimately it hurts the developer whether you want it to or not. HA! Good Fun!

well, keeping in mind that many of you folks is coming from black isle, a developer that since the summer of 2001 has cancelled more games than it has developed, we ain't surprised by the unique approach taken by obsidian. good luck with that. HA! Good Fun!

and your point? if you can get other games cheaper, then buy them. if western games cost too much, then do not buy them. we like prosciutto di parma. we is willing to pay extra for di parma, but you know what, if prosciutto di parma became too expensive for us to afford we would not steal it no matter how much we like it. is this some bizarre cultural thing? HA! Good Fun!

actually, we understand economics quite well. these are LUXURY items. when the cost of movies increases, people find alternative sources of entertainment. people will not pay more than X for a video game. game companies may find cheaper ways to make games or they may find ways to cut costs, but they cannot simply keep raising price. *shakes head sadly* "You say this as if a Lamborghini dealer would let you test drive the car. The only way you can test drive is if you're definitely buying, and have basically paid downpayment on it." what the heck are you talking 'bout? are you suggesting stealing the lamborghini? if not, then what is the point? the dealer offers you the lamborghini at X price w/o a test drive. you can accept that deal or not. obviously 'nuff folks accept that kinda deal to keep the little italian car maker in business, no? HA! Good Fun!