Gromnir

Yes, but TTO was a very notable exception in that basically TTO *was* TNO. And Torment did the best job out of any game I have known to develop the protagonist (TNO). In a very real sense, developing TTO's personality was already done via TNO. Learning more about TNO through the game and his many incarnations translated effectively into learning more about TTO as well.. Any extra "development" of TTO would have been redundant. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> not redundant... and hardly a real exception. tto were a seperate entity with its own goals... but it were, like many other crpg villains, very 1-dimensional. had one goal and no Character beyond that goal. as to being an exception... bah. external villains is most often metaphor kinda characters... the monsters we fight is truly the darkness within each man's soul and all that stuff. the fact that tto were simply an aspect of tno is one of those typical anime hooks; not really signifficant but it gots the kewl factor for the easily distracted/amused. tno, on the other hand, were a protagonist character and as such, in spite of the development he got he too had to be left vague 'nuff so that different players could play him differently. compare tno and tto to ravel. no more need be said, but we s'pose we is gonna have to eventually. HA! Good Fun! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> TTO was definitely a oine dimensioinial character... His suirvival instinct was his oinily moiitivatioin, juist like an animal. Juist like a proiiper wild animal he is even has a cage. (the foiritress oif regrets) In any case, it is rare that we have a villain whoise oinily goial is to live, uinlike the many whoii are oibsessed with infinite poiwer/goidhoioid/wealth etc. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> so? what is your point? seems lie you is kinda reaching... trying real hard to give tto something special that weren't there. like ps:t all you want, but tto were a pretty weak adversary/villain. ravel, on the other hand, had soul

"You attack a truism? Nothing wrong with cliche characters, but suggesting originality (with all the literature that exists) today is very strange indeed. " is a truism 'cause you say so? HA! bs. is a cheap dodge, nothing more. and as for truisms, it is AXIOMATIC that the more a developer developes the protagonist, the less a player will be able to do so. you cannot possibly need it explained, can you? HA! Good Fun!

buckwitz HA! Good Fun!

"Not all fleshed out NPCs automatically made good villains" am not sure if anybody ever suggested such a thing, so your point is? beating on the scarecrow again? *shrug* as noted above, sauron is one dimensional. we noted that such characters can be effective/good. nevertheless, they is simply 1 dimensional. seen one and you has largely seen 'em all. "SoA necessarily needed to be more PC-centered then it was" why? develop the protagonist story and you run into traditional crpg problem: freedom. more freedom you give player to create and develop his character, the less the developer can have to do so. makes more sense to put effort into those characters who can be developed... such as villains. bg2 suffered not 'cause it failed to develop the protagonist, but rather 'cause it failed to develop irenicus more. "All characters are cliche." and so, with this oft repeated and clearly misguided refrain, you make the entire thread largely pointless. congrats. HA! Good Fun!

"Right.. Because I have seen a lot of villains that ascend through wars caused by iron shortages..." oh please. is simply a mechanic... is not Character. sarevok were the traditional evil and power hungry murderer/mastermind (btw, if you even think 'bout the iron shortage thing for a minute you realize that it is the dumbest plan evar,) who will do anything it takes to win. what is his motivation. what does he want? why does he do as he does? Character is not same as plot... don't get too confused 'bout plot details. HA! Good Fun!

Yes, but TTO was a very notable exception in that basically TTO *was* TNO. And Torment did the best job out of any game I have known to develop the protagonist (TNO). In a very real sense, developing TTO's personality was already done via TNO. Learning more about TNO through the game and his many incarnations translated effectively into learning more about TTO as well.. Any extra "development" of TTO would have been redundant. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> not redundant... and hardly a real exception. tto were a seperate entity with its own goals... but it were, like many other crpg villains, very 1-dimensional. had one goal and no Character beyond that goal. as to being an exception... bah. external villains is most often metaphor kinda characters... the monsters we fight is truly the darkness within each man's soul and all that stuff. the fact that tto were simply an aspect of tno is one of those typical anime hooks; not really signifficant but it gots the kewl factor for the easily distracted/amused. tno, on the other hand, were a protagonist character and as such, in spite of the development he got he too had to be left vague 'nuff so that different players could play him differently. compare tno and tto to ravel. no more need be said, but we s'pose we is gonna have to eventually. HA! Good Fun!

"Nonsense...And Irenicus wasn't cookie cutter? Not only did they re-hash the whole "I-want-to-be-a-god" motive from Sarevok himself, but oh no, he wants revenge from those who wronged him. No.. I have never seen *that* one before." if that is all you got from irenicus, then we feel bad for you... though we admit that bio dropped the ball on his development... which is exactly what you seem to want less of, so go figure. HA! Good Fun!

"The transcendent oine was a goioid villain becauise he was yoiuir oiwn moiirtality, which was a great coincept." yeah, and a concept is all you need for a great character. ... no, that ain't right, is it? you know, we did not mention the pong paddle by accident. one more point 'bout comic books and games... anybody here play Freedom Force? was campy and fun and it followed comic book story and character development spot on, no? ask self if freedom force ultimate villain resembled more closely sarevok or irenicus. comic books, like any other storytelling medium, can has a wide-range o' possible and successful villain types. also, please note just how many similarities comic book story telling gots to games. short dialogues. visuals is important. super powered heroes and villains. similar audiences. etc.however, never forget that Teen Titans and 300 is both comic books. is a huge range o

"In regards to being a truly good villain-- Irenicus fell far short. He would have made a good comic book villain, just not a very good RPG one." lord only knows what you is thinking is the significance o' that observation. and for those that draw some hard line twixt villains and antagonists, we thinks you is cheating selves. many o' the best villains is the ones we sympathize with. cartoonish evil villains such as sauron, characters who is evil for evil's sake, can be effective characters, but they is always kinda flat and 1-dimensional. and since comic books were mentioned, who were the ultimate villain in

1) those o' you who mentions the transcendent one gotta 'members that you is being asked for your favorite villain and not your favorite game's villain. transcendent one were poorly developed, albeit for obvious reasons. 2) sarevok were too cookie-cutter clich

basic ingredients 2 tablespoons extra virgin olive oil 1 cup chopped onion 2-3 cloves garlic, minced 1-2 stalks celery, chopped (am not a celery fan our self

It isn't a bad flick, very memorable moments. If you ever watch it, remember it's pre-9/11. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> and here we thought that the only reason to see it were to oggle ms. berry. maybe we will take your advice and check it out. sidenote: "take the first shot" only works 'cause so few folks do. HA! Good Fun!

swordfish? the halle berry naked movie? never seen it. HA! Good Fun!

suicide? sure. if your goal is a succesful suicide then we not see a problem... and police stand offs would NEVER occur if Gromnir's philosophy were employed by the police. HA! Good Fun!

can Gromnir try? >>> ... *** ### we were testing our psychic powers. if your head just exploded, please pm Gromnir at your earliest possible convenience. thank you. HA! Good Fun!

tangential observation: those individuals most in need of good advice is the persons least likely to accept it. take the first shot. sports, fighting, dating, business... works for everything. HA! Good Fun!

how doth the little crocodile improve his shining tail, and pour the waters of the Nile on every golden scale! how cheefully he seems to grin! how neatly spread his claws, and welcomes little fishes in with gently smiling jaws! HA! Good Fun!

never pass up the chance to take the first shot. *shrug* may be barbaric, but such a simple philosophy is responsible for much of our success in life. HA! Good Fun!

ok, now keep in mind that Gromnir only gots a vague notion of what is going on with this card stuff, but some of eldar's post 'bout josh were pretty amusing regardless. "Sawyer may invoke

... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> makes you wish that you were a used car salesman or real estate agent, no? HA! Good Fun!

as an aside, usc don't have even the most attractive co-ed population in southern california. sure, their cheerleaders are impressive, but then again so is the oakland raiders cheerleaders. you ever been to oakland? in so-cal, pepperdine is #1. a handful o' other schools is arguably worthy o' the number 2 spot, but usc ain't one of 'em. matt is a real trooper if he intends to bed all of usc's co-eds. HA! Good Fun! btw, the rumor that ucsb required photographs as part of their app process and had an unofficial "no ugly" rule during the 80s and early 90s is pure fiction.... it just seemed that way.

... so, Gromnir is 'posed to compare you folks to Gods? ... if there were a God o' underwear skid marks or cat hairballs MAYBE we might thinks o' one us posters... compare you to Gods, even the wacky and flawed Greek Gods, is seeming a bit of a stretch even for Gromnir's powerful imagination. HA! Good Fun!

Now now.. Stop barking and allow people to make their own judgements. More celebs.. Madonna. For hyping Kabbalah, turning it into some.. fashion thing. Tom Cruise, for running his Scientology crusade with an almost missionary zeal wherever he goes. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> maybe you ain't noticed, but it is impossible for Gromnir to make another person's "judgements." each man (gender neutral english usage,) will come to their own conclusions. nevertheless, if we had a friend who were buying a house and Gromnir knew that the house had defects, we would be a poor friend if we did not inform him of the house's problems. junai is a defect. is a defect of legendary status at the only other board we has encountered him. *shrug* am just being a good neighbor to fellow posters... informing them o' defects. oprah is #1-10, but we s'pose you could add most o' the espn sports anchors at #11. chris berman and howard cosell were kinda unique in that they believe(d) that they transcended the sports they were reporting... and the fans let 'em get away with it. never liked that, but since those guys were relative aberrations they amused us more than they irritated... but now it seems like every espn anchor has got keith olbermann disease. HA! Good Fun!

some of you may be aware of Gromnir's claim that we has only ever used the idiot or moron label for 2 folks we has come across during our time on game boards. sargy/soggy and junai is some folks on the alfa boards that still use the shorthand of "junai" to insult others for particularly stoopid posts. honest. HA! Good Fun!