metadigital

Hmm, perhaps you have a point pointing the finger of blame equally at Obsidian -- I had given them the benefit of the doubt as they are basically Black Isle, and Balder's Gate was an excellent CRPG (or should that be ERPG? . I can't believe people are excitedly talking about the patch (I'll bet London Bridge to a brick it won't have any content) and a sequel (I would rather poke my eyes out with a rusty speculum than play another disapointing game like KotOR 2 ... ).

The stupid "Force Breathing" (or whatever it is) that you get from Kreia when entering the Jar Jar Pit after Mira doesn't work anywhere else -- try it on Malachor V and Korriban, for example, with the poison gas mines dotted about the place ...

... you listed "The Force" as your religion in the last census ...

... Deakin ... is that you?

... We haven't even got to one party accusing the other of being Nazis yet. We still have a long way to go ...

... with a bad case of laryngitis ...

I dunno, judging by the moderator's actions, it probably won't be long before the attention-starved youngster is banned.

In the same vein, it would be a very good idea if (in future games) we could actually play as another race (a bit like KotOR when we were either Zalbar or Mission) ... did anyone else notice that when playing as Visas we could see normally, and not via "Force Sight", as I would expect?

there was a big discussion on the "other" KotOR2 forum, back before release: LucasArts KotOR2 Forum The conclusion was that it is just English grammar with random words/phrases/sylables/sounds swapped for normal words. (Cf: Elvish, etc from The Lord of The Rings, which was JRR Tolkein's efforts to "flesh out" Anglo Saxon with an epic story.) Feel free to try to find the thread, however there wasn't a search function last time I looked...

Yes, the selkatish language consists of 99.9% utter and unintelligible nonsense. The sentence I posted above is the only real form of communication they possess. It translates roughly to "Your hoovercraft is full of eels". <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My nipples explode with delight!

When you manage to pull your head out of GoA's ass, you should listen to Master Yoda's insightful advice: ... [snip] ... You might actually learn something! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I disagree with your statement that I can't distinguish opinion from fact. If you read it on any setting higher than "angry Half-glance" you would have noticed the following: CONTEXT: I was replying to a post you wrote, the contents of which attempted to mock and down-play the value of someone elses opinion. "Facts" were not involved. The discussion was "worth/value" of opinion. My reaon for replying, as seen in my post, was to point out that his opinion, which you lambasted, was commonly held as valid by many people, and was well evidenced, IF NOT fact. WORDING: My point was neither to insult you or brown-nose any one else. I caution against swapping insults as a debate techinque. I am no hater of OE or LA, and look forward to playing KOTOR 2. I am happy that you are defending it as a cool game, which I am sure it will turn out to be. It shows you are not just a "troll". However, some opinions are justified. You cannot roast a turkey in 10 minutes, or write a novel in a week, or design an RPG for multiple platforms in 12 months as a small, fledgling company. Despite what you say, the game is incomplete. Not because there is unused content on the CD, but because there are side-quests in the game which can be started but not completed, and multiple Holes in the story. Even though that is the sign of a rushed game, I will still buy the game, patch or no, because of my loyalty to the KOTOR story and Characters. I appreciate your loyalty to an excellent Starwars franchise, which I empathize with. Regards, FaramirK <{POST_SNAPBACK}> FaramirK, gentle readers: Having returned to this thread I see 2leet4u is still hiding behind a facade; adopting an attitude of "intelligent, common sense pragmatist", whilst the content is unmitigated solipsism and argumentum ad hominem. Given the benefit of doubt initially, it is clear that the person is just craving attention (I know I shouldn't respond now as it only encourages, however I didn't want this person to think they were not seen, categorised and dismissed). This thread is entitled "Guess the Patch release date" with a bunch of humerous responses. An antagonist (2leet4u -- sounds like a script kiddy) responds by picking a fight -- similar to posting a "Xboxusers are losers" on the Xbox forum. This is the definition of trolling. The "arguments" are purile, opinionated and flawed. But it does seem that this individual is deriving some enjoyment from this process (otherwise why argue with such unconvincing tactics?) PS 2leet4u, I do not work in the mental health industry. I'm just not 14 years old, like you seem to be. Now you can graffiti out-of-context excerpts of this post with your infantile scribblings. I shan't rise to the bait in future. *-* Normal service resumed... *-* You would need a spaceship with an infinite improbability drive to reach the patch within the lifetime of our galaxy. (I can't wait for the new HHGttG movie!) (w00t)

I don't remember the germans having a death star in ww2. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You must have missed it. They parked it in the Baltic Sea. Big one. Floated like a beach ball. Nasty little thing.

Then you should have read more reviews. You can't expect to supply common sense with "good faith" and have the results be good. They may be sloppy developers, but you are a negligent customer. Amateurish attempts at psychobabble-based trolling always bring up a smile with me. But I've endured worse. Keep trying, though. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So many issues. 1. Why should I care for the livelihoods of corporates who don't give a jot for me? 2. I really don't think this company is going to suffer unduly -- or unfairly -- because of a poor release. 3. I don't blame Obsidian. The game development was pretty sound. The problem was that the game was released before it was ready, and I (however niaively) believe that someone, somewhere within Obsidian might be interested in hearing public opinion (including fair greivances) in general (which includes mine in particular). 4. I play games to escape from real life (including disapointments) -- I don't need them in my game playing. If I want disapointment, I can watch the 6 o'clock news and see how the duly elected politicians are making a mess of the planet. 5. Every review I read before I bought the game gave it 80% or more (and I subscribe to 3 magazines) ... it was only much later that someone wrote a polemic. 6. Reading the forum is arguably a better was to obtain a review of the game, except if we follow your edicts and obliterate any dissenting comments and simply subscribe to a corporate propaganda policy. 7. If you think the video game is so trivial, why are you bothering to make comments on the forum? Surely you have better things to do? I'm providing feedback to anyone who is interested in reading it. 8. I never said Obsidian owe me anything in the financial transaction I performed with them -- I am well versed in the legalaties. (I did imply that morally Obsidian, or more specifically, Lucas Arts might.) I said that allowing people to raise greivances would be a service that a smart corporate would utilise. Caveat emptor is a mantra to poor businesses. Losing customers to make quick profit is a short-term tactic, not a strategy for long-term corporate growth. 9. My psycho bable goes a lot further than you can imagine. Still, you seem to be enjoying your rebuttals. Once again, this disproves your main assertion that this thread (and those like it) serve only to threaten the existence of the forum. Specifically, I find it pretty amusing that you seem to be so enraged over something as trivial as a forum thread. Take your time to formulate anything you want to post here because I am logging off for the night.

No, I don't think you're pathetic. I find the dark side very boring. It is quite difficult to do the right thing. For example, if you have to choose who lives from - your mother and - a neo natal children's ward ... light side dilemma asks the hedonistic economics question (more people saved for the sacrifice of one: the good of the many outweighs the good of the few, or the one) versus a more confuscian ethos (filial piety, or nepotism). You can even mess around with the balance a little more, say if your mother (or any close relative) had a terminal illness ... or the children were very sickly (e.g. chronically disabled) would that change your decision? But dark side is easy: kill the children, the old woman and the b**tard who gave you the choice. <_<

No. Don't twist the truth. This thread serves no useful purpose at all. It is not a discussion about the game, and it holds no constructive criticism at all. It is just a blatant effort at bashing OE out of the spite of some people who can't deal with disappointment and frustration. I wasn't talking about censorship, mind you. I was talking about total closure of the boards. That isn't censorship, it's just the removal of a service whose privileges are being systematically misused and abused by immature fanboys and outright trolls. Get this in your little head once and for all. These boards aren't the place to "solve the grievances" you might have. In fact, there is no such place even though some places will allow it. You have a "grievance" with the game or OE? Return it and never buy anything from these people again. That is your only right. They don't owe you jack. Deal with it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's funny that a significant proportion of the contributors to this forum seem to disagree with your point of view. Still, you sound like a grown up, so I'm sure you can deal with that. And why do so many people have to "deal with disapointment and frustration" ? I disagree -- I think that giving people the ability to blow off some steam on a forum may go a long way to preventing a lot of bad will in the market place ... someone somewhere would only start up a www.kotor2diedotdiedotdie.org website. In fact I do have a legitimate greivance with the game I bought in good faith. (I haven't been so disapointed since I bought the last Lara Croft mess.) And, yes, I have written to customer services with my complaint. Finally, I shall indeed vote with my wallet and be more skeptical next time a Star Wars product is released to the public. But thanks for the advice, you seemed to enjoy giving it -- so my post has indeed -- additionally -- performed a mental hygiene service.

Nope, the original D&D books (the three little brown books ;-)) have STR, INT, WIS, DEX, CON, and CHR. The only classes were "Fighting Men", Magic-Users, and Clerics. Alignment (Law, "Neutrality", Chaos) was also in the original books. I believe it was the 1st edition of Advanced D&D that added the familiar 3x3 alignment grid (Good <-> Evil, Lawful <-> Chaotic). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well done that player! I must confess to only glimsing the old D&D books; we played AD&D with the new-fangled "Paladins", "Rangers", "Illusionists", "Druids", "Theives", "Assassins" and "Monks"! I do remember the alignment because it struck me is incomplete (easy to say in hindsight ;-) ... really digged the Gods & Goddesses book, checking out the stats for heroes and gods (good ol' Zeus with straight 25s) ... seems rather quaint now when we have heroes with stats in the forties and fifties. Still, my original point is that the KotOR characters are more like Paladin/Blackgurads and don't provide for any real bredth of character class nor role-playing development.

that's like the Fine Young Cannibals (British pop group) took their name from a bad B movie. And Lucas did base all his combat scenes in the movies on real footage from WWII. Good find! :D

... because censorship will solve all the greivances held by the CUSTOMERS WHO BOUGHT THE FAULTY PRODUCT. [/sarcasm] Really, if anyone who might be able to rescue the situation cared, they would be using these fora --- it's good business to retain customers rather than go out and generate more. For one thing, my disposable income is significantly larger than any new audience members, as I became a fan with the first movie ... the new audiences won't even have a disposable income for a decade. They've lost me as one of the "must buy" fans of the games. I'll be very careful before I ever buy a Star Wars product again.

Yes, I think there is a lot of similarity between LS Guardian and Paladin or DS Guardian and Blackguard, even to the extent that their magical powers are of the clerical sort (if you associate Consulars and Clerics) and their association with good/evil. I think Consulars are more powerful than any single magic class but Cleric is probably the best equivalent for LS Consular. In KotOR/TSL there is little difference between classes, actually, it is more like two flavours of Paladins with combat emphasis on one hand (Guardian) and magic focus on the other (Consular). The TSL prestige classes add some interesting aspects but so do the AD&D prestige classes. And the Sentinel isn't a class anyway, just a mix between Guardian and Consular with a few skill points and immunities thrown in for good measure. A good choice for people who want to play both Guardian and Consular at the same time, but not really a class or archetype in its own right (except perhaps in a Scout/Hunter/Ranger way?). The KotOR/TSL classes were probably done this way because you cannot multiclass freely as in other games. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yep, which is why IMHO they don't need all six stats. D&D only had four, I think ... STR, DEX, INT, CON, as well as only three alignments: Chaotic, Neutral and Lawful. That reminds me, aren't the Jedi classes meant to be alignments, too? Consulars more Lawful, Sentinels more Neutral ... Guardians more ... um, Chaotic ... Dang! There goes the Paladin analogy.

It's a pity you can't play Bao Dur as the main PC ... he ended up with almost straight 30s in all his stats ...

(1) Korriban, (2) Dxun, (3) Mines. Lay some mines, leave the area, come back and recover. The mines are still friendly but the game forgets that you laid them yourself and gives you XP for disarming/recovering them. Use mines whose DC for recovering is at least your taken level + 20 in order to get 15 * level XP for recovering, otherwise it is 10 * level. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh yeah, last time I played through Dxun that scene went on for about 25 minutes! Didn't realise the Korriban Hssiseseses were on redial, too, though. Nor about the mines. I only used mines for the sub-plot on Dantooine, out of both KotORs. I don't like mines -- stupid NPCs keep running through them, even when you tell 'em to STAY! Stay. (Sit Ubu, sit. Good dog.)

I understand what you're getting at. Remember, though, originally in D&D, the Hit Points where a concept that incorporated the ability to mitigate attacks. A fighter of level 10 (who might have 80 HP) would not necessary be 10 men of level 1 (with say 7-8 HP); the extra Hit Points were the higher level character's ability to anticipate lethal blows and parry them, together with general increase in fighting ability, resistence to fatigue and concentration lapses, etc. So, to keep the analogy, the lightsaber isn't really hitting the oponent to score "damage", it is just reducing the incidental fighter prowess of the opposing character in keeping with the parameters of the pugilistic art ... until either character finally succumbs to a lethal blow. Other ideas would be to have "targeting", "disarming" and "knockown" ("called shots" and "disarming" in AD&D and NwN, "knockdowns" already exist in KotOR, if in a limited fashion). Certainly it would help if all the characters could use the terrain as cover (I have shot and been shot by NPCs behind walls). It just feels like KotOR 2 has lost its way ... sort of a dead end in RPG development. I would have hoped that RPGs had moved on to being more hybrid ... including more virtual reality rather than more Space Invaders.

While I agree with your post overall, I do disagree with your conclusion. By your measure a STR-oriented Guardian/Weapon Master wins hands down. Nihilus: two rounds. Zakkeg, Drexl Larva, Greater Storm Beast, Sion: 1..2 rounds. Traya: 2 x 2..3 rounds. Everything else 1 round, except for a few toothless tanks like Kobin and some Sith lieutenants on Dxun. In areas where enemies (like turrets) are spaced too far apart for AOE spells the Guardian needs only one round for each enemy (jump - jump - jump - done), while all other classes have to walk/run from one to the other (melee) or play sitting duck while casting on average two spells per foe. Granted, such areas are very few and in most other cases you can Force Storm the whole room at once if you pick the right spot, so this advantage is more theoretical than practical. But it is more fun than spamming Force powers. Against non-bosses even a Guardian/WM can cast Stasis, Force Storm and Destroy Droid just as reliably as a flat-out Consular/JM. In fact, even with melee builds I always used Force Storm or Destroy Droids to clear away enemy groups, since killing each one individually and personally takes one combat round per enemy instead of two per room. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sure, I was being a little facetious. My experience was that my Guardian/Watchman took a lot longer to kill Traya and her band of lightsabers than my Consular/Jedi Master. But as you point out, it doesn't matter what (prestige) class you choose, the game is too easy. I was relieved when I received Force Enlightenment: three less buttons to push at the beginning of each fight. Apart from the lack of character classes to play, there isn't enough depth in story or character development to hold my interest. Heck, I think there's more character development in Rome:Total War than KotOR2! " The biggest disapointment is that, with only a tiny bit more effort, this game could have been very very good. A little more development between the characters -- and especially linking their narratives at the end -- and this could easily have lived up to its promise of a game that could be played through many times. The beginning and the end plot sections are too linear for too long, making the middle almost totally irrelevant. Incidentally, you didn't indicate what you equate the individual Jedi classes to in AD&D. I think they're a sorta Cleric/Illusionist, Cleric and Paladin/Blackguard -- what do you think?

The more I think about it, the more it seems that the KotOR mechaniscs are fatally flawed. They have too many stats that do nothing, and the bonuses are weighted far more to the level of a PC so that the stats are ultimately irrelevant. Case in point: what are Jedis ? Are they equivalent to Mages? Illusionists? Sorcerors? Druids? Rangers? Paladins/Blackguards? Clerics -- what domain? Ok, I'm over-egging the pudding, but I want to make the point that the reason KotOR seems unbalanced and generally lacking character (pun intended) is that it seems that KotOR is more like the old D&D -- i.e. before Gary Gyggax penned Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (and the current version is AD&D 3). And if you remove the battles from the game (due to their ease), then all that's left is character development and story. Story, well, that didn't turn out too well, did it? A rush of seemingly pointless solo sub-quest segways that don't have any referential integrity and even less intrinsic enjoyment ... And character development is limited: ok, you have to play through the game multiple times to discover each NPC's personal narrative, but to be effective we must want to find out. I just have no interest in this story after playing through a game that I found to be a tedious, excruciating disapointment. Jade Empire seems to be a better mix of character classes and skills, without the elf/dwarf/orc flavour.

Another problem with the KotOR engine is that there is no limit to the bonuses that can be added to your stats -- unlike, say NwN where a PC can only add 12 points to every stat. I have a character with 44 Wisdom (with a natural stat of c. 20). Considering this particular character's Wisdom doubles onto the defence bonus, this is bordering on munchkinism. But because there is no "higher purpose" to the game except "kill every enemy in front of you until you get the epilogue", it doesn't seem as ridiculous as, say, acting the same way in a more rounded game (like some of the NwN community modules). Playing Half-Life 2 (again) feels more like an RPG than KotOR 2.