metadigital

Rationally, this and nothing more is known of the nature of the force. Force users in the Star Wars universe can observe and record these effects, and they are as 'real' as anything else your philosophical/ontological position allows you to accept. As it seems this cannot be proven or disproven, it's just her belief, founded on faith. She ought to have started a church. But I don't see how it could ever be more than one among many competing interpretations. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, no philosophical tenets can be proved in an absolute manner, all of philosophical debate is subjective and prone to interpretation and re-interpretation. I was more interested in the ramifications of the philosophy: if we are just stuck to our fate or if in fact "There is no fate but what we make". Of course it is entirely possible that the multiiverse is made up of an infinite series of universes where every possible action's consequence is played out in full, until the end of time. So then both suppositions would indeed be true, simultaneously! :D But we still have God appearing for the first time in the SW universe ...

Ah, okay, I never read (nor do I intend to read) the EU, so this is new information (and probably better researched and elucidated than the text from the game). Actually it is not Kreia that says she hates the Will of The Force, it is someone else who tells you she does, and therefore where to find her -- one of the Jedi Masters, Atris, maybe?

Why do you say that self awareness is only gained through opposition. (I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just that there are several philosophical standpoints that do not agree with you: Existentialism and even Ren

Well, it might be uncertain to us poor mortals, who cannot see the mind of God (or the whimsey of The Force), but that doesn't mean it isn't pre-ordained. Yes, this is the canon as understood by the traditionalists from "A New Hope" onwards. The twist is what has been introduced into the doctrine by the latest KotOR game, namely Darth Traya's motivation to destroy The Force because it has a will and it controls FSs (which she resents absolutely). I too noticed it doesn't fit with the existing philosophy, but that never stopped Lucas before ...

Your comment belies the fact that a lot (dare I say most?) of the complainants actually liked (and still play) the original KotOR. Are you suggesting we're all just Bioware fanboys? If the sequel was good, the complaints would be drowned out by the praise. I really wanted the game to be good. Now I'd rather play Half-Life 2 or even Rome:Total War (because they have better character development).

Yep, I find female company eminently more enjoyable to be around for many different reasons, several of which your post illustrates perfectly.

Yes, KOTOR 2 had an ending, just not a very good one. If you want a game that truly has no ending, try Max Payne 2 or Republic Commando. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Never played Max Payne 2 and only played Republic Commando for about 15 minutes. How did the "not-endings" work in thoose? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I quite liked Max Payne 2: I certainly didn't feel as ripped off when I finished that game as when I finished KotOR2. Max was "Film Noir" -- not your usual Hollywood sacharine plot. It also finished in such a way as to bring you neatly back to a position where it felt quite natural to restart the game -- quite an achievement to accomplish, without souring the whole enterprise and seeming boring and corny. It felt like you were living an eternal nightmare. It also had an innovative combat system (bullet time) that enhanced the whole experience, together with superlative character developoment and plot! So, yeas, in a sense it had no end, but that was by (clever) design. KotOR2 wishes it had an end as good as Max Payne 2.

Why though? If the Force has a will, it is surely that the peoples of the Star Wars universe should be free to make their own fates, and to make their own decisions about what is right and wrong. This at least is what appears to be happening in the movies. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Interesting example: every time you play the movie, exactly the same thing happens, regardless of the will of the individual characters in the story! So they are all following their pre-determined fates. The characters have the illusion of free will (a self-delusion for the characters, not the audience.) Hmm, I was not really directly equating The Force with the Judeo-Christian God. In fact (as has been mentioned on these boards before) the Jedi code is based on the Japanese Samurai ideology. The Samurai were mainly Shintoist and Confuscian; even the Ninja were mainly Budhist. (See The Jedi as Ninja, by Lyta Alexander) My point was that, if you imbue The Force with a Will, you have created something more than just a force that must follow Newtonian-or-even-Einsteinian-like rules of balance. It wants, strives and aspires; it uses Force-sensitives to achieve its aims. Force + Will = more than the traditional Jedi Force. That's why I found it so remarkable (and why I'm making so many remarks about it! )

Well, how do you know "The future is never certain"? Let me play Devil's Advocado for a moment ... how do you know that we are not just following a fate that has been pre-determined ? Perhaps there is a God -- but this is not necessary -- there is no way you can tell that we are compelled to a fate with the illusion of free will, without some "super-natural" experience. E.g. You may just think you are choosing to not run over that pedestrian in your automobile, when in fact you were never going to, instead you willl have a heart-attack and crash into the parked car next to them ... You didn't choose to die when you did, what makes you so certain you chose not to run over the pedestrian? Perhaps we are all just like trains travelling along our own tracks. Budhists believe that reality is an illusion, that the existence of suffering is not real. They do not allow themselves to harm any beings, not even earthworms or pests on crops. The Existential philosophy postulates that the believer is the only real being, and all the universe is merely their over-active imagination (talk about schizophenia!). There is more to the universe than is dreamed of in your philosophy ... PS Here's another Deus ex reference, namely the manga anime "Ghost in the Shell" :D

Unfortunately the combat system doesn't really affect the gameplay that much: as has been noted elsewhere on the forum, the bonuses gained due to the PC's level far outweigh the inherent bonuses from class, attribute and items. This means that as soon as your character reaches level twelve or so, you won't take more than two rounds to kill everything in the hostile party. You have more to be concerned about with the rushed, linear ending to the game ...

Yep, you aren't the first to notice this. I found that if I swapped back to the characters repeatedly, I could manually walk them through the queue. For some reason, as you have outlined, the queue gets lost somewhere between when its entered and when its executed. But the queue is still there -- you can re-activate it by cancelling a single action and re-entering one: bingo, it's back. From memory I could have each of the characters execute single commands simultaneous to each other, but longer action queues were ignored. Obviously a bug.

The sexism in society is an insidious thing. If you had the chance to speak to Socrates, the first (and arguably greatest) philosopher in HIStory (even that word is sexist! ) he would extol the virtues of democracy as a form of government. But women were not permited to vote. Nor were slaves. Yet the Ancient Greeks believed they had a free society. If you told them to give the vote to all members of society, including the aforementioned disposessed, (assuming your ancient greek was up to snuff) he would surely look at you as if you were mad. Yes, the Greeks had the most progressive political society in the ancient world, but that doesn't mean it was perfect. I would be hesitant to state categorically that "Girls don't play games, therefore games shouldn't be designed to be inclusive." This contravenes the fundamental principle of a modern democracy (inclusiveness) and the most progressive political action in modern times (affirmative action). What you are really saying -- very patronisingly -- is that if you have two X chromosomes you don't want to play games and have fun. Piffle. In other words, I believe if more games were more inclusive, then it follows that more girls would play them. And this isn't just adding female eye-candy; the whole interaction with the game might need to be re-thought. And that costs R&D money. And the return on investment is neither quantifiable nor predictable against an amortization timeline. That means a higher risk. So it's better to churn out the same tired old cliched plots, characters and devices aimed at the same reliable immature audience than experiment and expand the boundaries of human experience. Sounds like the woeful state of the Hollywood cinema industry, or worse, the Pop music industry that produces endless cover versions of previous work, ad nauseum, for pre-teens who are too young to have seen the original, but old enough to have the disposable income to afford singles and ringtones. So perhaps the inertia of "It's always been like that" is the reason we don't have a more equal gender distribution ...

Why? Is it a lot better? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> IMO the story isn't better. However, the overall feel of the game is better, since it's complete and very polished. Plus, it gives you a better insight into the events of Kotor2. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, it is a lot better. I played through the first one about a dozen times end-to-end, and many more times just starting saves and playing parts. Don't think it's perfect, though -- it isn't -- part of the hype for the sequel was the anticipation of circumventing the shortcomings of the first. Ironically, the shortcomings of the second far outweigh the shortcomings of the first, however. All debate about which KotOR game is best notwithstanding; there is not a lot of choice when it comes to sci-fi RPGs in the games market, so it certainly is worth a play.

Literally, 'God as/from a machine', I think. It comes from ancient Greek plays, where the plot would get more and more confused and convoluted, to the point where it was impossible for the characters to sort everything out. Then at the end one of the Greek gods would just 'descend' (on stage, probably involving some sort of machinery) and pronounce a solution that everyone just had to accept. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yep, here's another reference: Deus ex machina - wikipedia Actually I was being a little more literal and a little more prosaic, referring to emergence of the Will of the Force (= God) and combining that with the fact that this is a computer RPG (= machine) ... Hmm -- wasn't that the whole rationale behind why Traya turned on the Exile, to destroy The Force once and for all? Because she couldn't reconcile Force Predetermination (i.e. Fate) and the Jedi teaching of Free Will ...? If she could take The Force out of the equation then universe will be better off? **** Of course, there is one solution to Saint Augustine's Paradox .... (Why, if The Force -- God -- is all-knowing and all-powerful is there evil and suffering?) if The Force is inherently Dark, then it would will darkness and suffering, and any light would be permitted to further the aims of eventual ultimate darkness and suffering. So The Force is a Chaotic Evil God. "

Well, that's avoiding the conversation. What the topic initially asks is "Is The Force simply an analogy for magic, or is it an allusion to a Godhead?". So you're saying that magic and God don't exist. Okay, but we're talking about SW generally, and the world of KotOR specifically. Herein there is indeed The Force, and I wanted to know whether it is merely magic or a/the Supreme Being. I then added the Free Will Paradox, first attributed to Saint Augustine (in Christian thought).

Yeah, it just all feels inconsistent. I have done Nar Shaddar before Dantooine, so I think the issue existst there, too. That's a valid poison-on-contact point you make; however, consider this: a poison implant would give total immunity as it would act like an artificial kidney and remove the toxins from the blood, whether injested through the lungs or skin. So maybe the mask has an element of the implant (remove the poison from the lungs like CO2?) I mean, I don't want to geek out and submit the game mechanics to a low-level scan for logical consitency (because I fear for the conclusion -- how can the mitochondria of the muscles do work without the lactic acid waste being removed and new Oxygen fuel to burn? " ), just that --- gee, I dunno, maybe I have a higher threshold for science credibility than most of the audience, so that when these issues pop up I get irritated whilst others just keep on obliviously playing.

This is more significant than I believe anyone has mentioned yet. If The Force has a Will of its own, then it is a God (equivalent to the Judea-Christian one). Up until this point in time, Star Wars has implied that The Force is neither good nor bad, simply the sum of all life. If, indeed, The Force has a Will, then either: it is a Good God and Good will triumph (Light Side), or it is ultimately an Evil God and the universe ends in pain and suffering. It also means that an individual's free will is subsumed in the Will of the Force (so that they are all pawns of The Force). Interestingly, this is one of the central dilemmas of Christian thought, as first illucidated by Saint Augistine: Free Chioce means that there must be some people who will choose evil and will therefore not be saved; if some people are doomed, then either God is not all knowing (didn't see it coming) or not all powerful (couldn't prevent it). So, does The Force have a Will? Or is it just an energy form that binds us all together (and can be manipulated by carbon-based life forms with iron-based fluid called blood that transports nutrients and oxygen fuel around their bodies, together with midichlorians that enable them a degree of control over this Force)? Free Will or Fate?

If you are too ignorant or just too lazy to do a search before making such statements, doesn't mean they never existed you know. Here's a nice link for starters, you might wanna check the Military and Warfare part, as well as Politics and Government. http://www.distinguishedwomen.com/subject/field.html If you can focus long enough on reading the text, oh superior one. " There are plenty of similar sites on the net. Edit: Oh and on topic, I believe Revan's and Exile's gender should be left up to the player to decide. That's why you can choose it at the first place. Lucasarts is a publisher, not the creator of the game, so their statement is just their opinion. Personally I see both the Exile and Revan as female, but I agree that those who played as males are entitled to their preferences no less than I am. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well done DevilCat, and you too, Wynne. Darth Flatus, et alia, your ignorance does not excuse your imbercility. As DevilCat pointed out, think before you speak: go and research before you make ludicrous generalisations. If there is a paucity of female role models throughtout history, it is not because they are inferior, it is because they are not on the even playing field. Ever heard of Catherine di Medici? No, you probably haven't even heard of Leonardo. I find bigotry offensive in the extreme and incredibly boorish (and indeed it is forbidden on the message boards). In answer to the original question: NO NO NO NO ! I am male yet I normally prefer to play my characters as Female. Then again, I have also played both games as both sexes and all classes --- and sometimes choosing to go light or dark, and sometimes selecting the romance options and sometimes not. That's why it's roleplaying. Just because you have a limited field of vision doesn't mean we all do. Now let this ridiculous thread atrophy and let us raise the level of conversation to something more stimulating, like the ontological ramifications of the Force having a Will ... or the theological underpinnings of The Force ... or the subtleties of Chaotic Good versus Lawful Good.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean. When you first get the Jedi Breathing power, you appear to be totally immune to the poisonous atmosphere in the Jek Jek Pits. And at no point have I ever (with poison mask or Force Power) succumbed to the poison in these rooms ... unless the power has run out. My point is that surely, for consistency, if you can in fact be affected by the poison (not poisoned, but rendered immobile), then this should also happen in the Jek Jek Pits, too. :ph34r: And, furthermore, it would make sense that the poison mask would fail occassionally, too, then -- and I don't remember it ever failing. What I am trying to point out (not very eloquently, it appears :D ) is that the behaviour is not consistent when using the Force Breathing power when you first use it and anywhere else in the game, which detracts from the suspension of disbelief. Also, I want to be able to use wierd and unexpected methods to solve seemingly insoluble tasks ... reward for innovative thinking is a sweet feeling.

I couldn't agree more with all the points you have made. You perfectly summed up everything. It was very gutsy to go with the story they did, and I believe it paid off. People may think it's not as epic as the first game, or it has a weak ending, or plot holes, etc.. The fact of the matter is that there are no flaws in the story, just like you said. The characters are so much more developed and interesting in KOTOR II. Not everything is handed to you on a platter, as you have to discover things for yourself, and when the game does reach the point of closure it is all the more satisfying. The Jedi masters themselves simply reveal the flaw in the Jedi order. It needed to be rebuilt. I found Vrook and Atris to be very preachy, arrogant, and foolish. Kavar and Zez-Kai-Ell were definitely the brighter of the bunch, and I admired their characters. It would have been nice to have a choice in the matter on Dantooine, but ultimately Kreia does what needed to be done. I felt that the Jedi masters' story played out excellently. I personally feel that The Sith Lords is above and beyond the original in all aspects. Kudos to Obsidian for taking some bold risks. KOTOR II has taken its place as my favourite game ever. Right where it belongs. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't understand what you are implying is the Jedi Council's "weakness". Either: - the Council members are Lawful Good and are baulking at the Exile (et alia) for using expedient tactics to achieve victory (i.e. fighting the Madalorian War), OR - the Council members are Chaotic Good and are convinced that the Exile is a threat to the existence of The Force, and must be stopped at all costs (wound in The Force), - BUT NOT BOTH. Either "the end justifies the means" is a slippery slope to the Dark Side and must be apposed (a "Lawful Good" alignment), OR use any means necessary to oppose the threat of the Exile for the greater good (a "Chaotic Good" alignment). It is possible to be a character of Chaotic Good or Lawful Good alignment, but not both at the same time. If the Lawful Good Council members abhor the Exile's actions in the war, they would not condone the action that is taken as punishment (unless, perhaps, the Exile volunteered the solution and wanted to be removed from the force). After all, the theme of the plot is that The Force has a will of its own (aside: this is the first time I am aware of in Star Wars that the allusion to a God has been manifested; up until now The Force was just neutral), so it can be argued that the Exile was merely the pawn of The Force. And if we are to believe that the Council has decided to act expediently and remove the Exile from the Force -- against her will and by force -- then they are guilty of the very crime they accuse the Exile of! This is why I found it slightly hollow. I am not suggesting the initial aim was to use this scene merely as a plot device to herald Act III and the linear end-game, just that I felt this was the result. I applaud the concept, but I would have liked to see several different outcomes to this scene (and even depend on your choices back in the cave on Korriban and the fate of Revan, so that these were not just shallow plot devices and had resonances throughout the game): perhaps one or two of the Masters side with you (the "Chaotic Good" ones: Kavar and Zez-Kai-Ell) to build on the tensions and divisions within the Council. Having all dialogue paths lead to the same conclusion takes away the role playing.

The difference is easy to see in the combat feedback log. With the Breath Control power active you get a line like "Munchkin is immune to poison" and without it you see the Fortitude save roll. The DC of the poison 'mines' on Malachor (DC25) is normal for poison, it is the same almost everywhere from Peragus to Malachor. What's ridiculous is the character level and associated stats, plus all the boosts from items. After a campaign like TSL you'd normally be more like level 8..10 but Obsidian used hyper-inflated XP values for everything so that the player is around level 30 instead of 10 near the end of the game. This is not necessarily a problem if the rest is adjusted to account for the god-like abilities of a level-30 character. Be that is it may, in my experience the Breath Control power does work everywhere as advertised. The only exceptions are sloppily scripted scenes - like the 'Poison Room' in the Iziz palace - but even there the power works insofar as it has the exactly same effect as poison immunity from an item. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I forgot about the poison room : yeah, that was one of the places I experimented with the power. I didn't bother checking the combat log: good point. So it does work? Then by that measure you should still be affected (infrequently) in the Pits. Which didn't happen to me at all, and I killed every single hostile Gand in the place (which took a few invocations of the power).

Go to your local game store and do yourself a favour and buy Deus Ex from the bargain bin -- it will be under

Greedy bastard. Oh, well - at least he duped a lot of the stuff at the Starforge & then donated it to random thugs/cannoks. :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ... Like Saresh's Circlet, which means that revan must have replaced it with something even better ...

So, I take it you're easy to please, or that you actually didn't play the game or pay attention to the ending...or lack thereof. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ... or you don't play a lot of games ...

what makes you think it was meant to work anywhere else? you should have an item that gives you all sorts of immunities including poison......but i have yet to encounter any bugged powers, but i ain't a force power hog that relies on it too much. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Without quoting verbatim et literarium, the gist of the Force Power is to allow you to hold -- or "regurgitate" might be a better word -- your last breath for 240 seconds whilst you carry on fighting in the acidic atmosphere of the Jar Jar Pit -- which you can run around in quite confortably with a poison mask on (as well as the space suit).