metadigital

In the same vein, it would be a very good idea if (in future games) we could actually play as another race (a bit like KotOR when we were either Zalbar or Mission) ... did anyone else notice that when playing as Visas we could see normally, and not via "Force Sight", as I would expect?

there was a big discussion on the "other" KotOR2 forum, back before release: LucasArts KotOR2 Forum The conclusion was that it is just English grammar with random words/phrases/sylables/sounds swapped for normal words. (Cf: Elvish, etc from The Lord of The Rings, which was JRR Tolkein's efforts to "flesh out" Anglo Saxon with an epic story.) Feel free to try to find the thread, however there wasn't a search function last time I looked...

Yes, the selkatish language consists of 99.9% utter and unintelligible nonsense. The sentence I posted above is the only real form of communication they possess. It translates roughly to "Your hoovercraft is full of eels". <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My nipples explode with delight!

When you manage to pull your head out of GoA's ass, you should listen to Master Yoda's insightful advice: ... [snip] ... You might actually learn something! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I disagree with your statement that I can't distinguish opinion from fact. If you read it on any setting higher than "angry Half-glance" you would have noticed the following: CONTEXT: I was replying to a post you wrote, the contents of which attempted to mock and down-play the value of someone elses opinion. "Facts" were not involved. The discussion was "worth/value" of opinion. My reaon for replying, as seen in my post, was to point out that his opinion, which you lambasted, was commonly held as valid by many people, and was well evidenced, IF NOT fact. WORDING: My point was neither to insult you or brown-nose any one else. I caution against swapping insults as a debate techinque. I am no hater of OE or LA, and look forward to playing KOTOR 2. I am happy that you are defending it as a cool game, which I am sure it will turn out to be. It shows you are not just a "troll". However, some opinions are justified. You cannot roast a turkey in 10 minutes, or write a novel in a week, or design an RPG for multiple platforms in 12 months as a small, fledgling company. Despite what you say, the game is incomplete. Not because there is unused content on the CD, but because there are side-quests in the game which can be started but not completed, and multiple Holes in the story. Even though that is the sign of a rushed game, I will still buy the game, patch or no, because of my loyalty to the KOTOR story and Characters. I appreciate your loyalty to an excellent Starwars franchise, which I empathize with. Regards, FaramirK <{POST_SNAPBACK}> FaramirK, gentle readers: Having returned to this thread I see 2leet4u is still hiding behind a facade; adopting an attitude of "intelligent, common sense pragmatist", whilst the content is unmitigated solipsism and argumentum ad hominem. Given the benefit of doubt initially, it is clear that the person is just craving attention (I know I shouldn't respond now as it only encourages, however I didn't want this person to think they were not seen, categorised and dismissed). This thread is entitled "Guess the Patch release date" with a bunch of humerous responses. An antagonist (2leet4u -- sounds like a script kiddy) responds by picking a fight -- similar to posting a "Xboxusers are losers" on the Xbox forum. This is the definition of trolling. The "arguments" are purile, opinionated and flawed. But it does seem that this individual is deriving some enjoyment from this process (otherwise why argue with such unconvincing tactics?) PS 2leet4u, I do not work in the mental health industry. I'm just not 14 years old, like you seem to be. Now you can graffiti out-of-context excerpts of this post with your infantile scribblings. I shan't rise to the bait in future. *-* Normal service resumed... *-* You would need a spaceship with an infinite improbability drive to reach the patch within the lifetime of our galaxy. (I can't wait for the new HHGttG movie!) (w00t)

I don't remember the germans having a death star in ww2. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You must have missed it. They parked it in the Baltic Sea. Big one. Floated like a beach ball. Nasty little thing.

Then you should have read more reviews. You can't expect to supply common sense with "good faith" and have the results be good. They may be sloppy developers, but you are a negligent customer. Amateurish attempts at psychobabble-based trolling always bring up a smile with me. But I've endured worse. Keep trying, though. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So many issues. 1. Why should I care for the livelihoods of corporates who don't give a jot for me? 2. I really don't think this company is going to suffer unduly -- or unfairly -- because of a poor release. 3. I don't blame Obsidian. The game development was pretty sound. The problem was that the game was released before it was ready, and I (however niaively) believe that someone, somewhere within Obsidian might be interested in hearing public opinion (including fair greivances) in general (which includes mine in particular). 4. I play games to escape from real life (including disapointments) -- I don't need them in my game playing. If I want disapointment, I can watch the 6 o'clock news and see how the duly elected politicians are making a mess of the planet. 5. Every review I read before I bought the game gave it 80% or more (and I subscribe to 3 magazines) ... it was only much later that someone wrote a polemic. 6. Reading the forum is arguably a better was to obtain a review of the game, except if we follow your edicts and obliterate any dissenting comments and simply subscribe to a corporate propaganda policy. 7. If you think the video game is so trivial, why are you bothering to make comments on the forum? Surely you have better things to do? I'm providing feedback to anyone who is interested in reading it. 8. I never said Obsidian owe me anything in the financial transaction I performed with them -- I am well versed in the legalaties. (I did imply that morally Obsidian, or more specifically, Lucas Arts might.) I said that allowing people to raise greivances would be a service that a smart corporate would utilise. Caveat emptor is a mantra to poor businesses. Losing customers to make quick profit is a short-term tactic, not a strategy for long-term corporate growth. 9. My psycho bable goes a lot further than you can imagine. Still, you seem to be enjoying your rebuttals. Once again, this disproves your main assertion that this thread (and those like it) serve only to threaten the existence of the forum. Specifically, I find it pretty amusing that you seem to be so enraged over something as trivial as a forum thread. Take your time to formulate anything you want to post here because I am logging off for the night.

No, I don't think you're pathetic. I find the dark side very boring. It is quite difficult to do the right thing. For example, if you have to choose who lives from - your mother and - a neo natal children's ward ... light side dilemma asks the hedonistic economics question (more people saved for the sacrifice of one: the good of the many outweighs the good of the few, or the one) versus a more confuscian ethos (filial piety, or nepotism). You can even mess around with the balance a little more, say if your mother (or any close relative) had a terminal illness ... or the children were very sickly (e.g. chronically disabled) would that change your decision? But dark side is easy: kill the children, the old woman and the b**tard who gave you the choice. <_<

No. Don't twist the truth. This thread serves no useful purpose at all. It is not a discussion about the game, and it holds no constructive criticism at all. It is just a blatant effort at bashing OE out of the spite of some people who can't deal with disappointment and frustration. I wasn't talking about censorship, mind you. I was talking about total closure of the boards. That isn't censorship, it's just the removal of a service whose privileges are being systematically misused and abused by immature fanboys and outright trolls. Get this in your little head once and for all. These boards aren't the place to "solve the grievances" you might have. In fact, there is no such place even though some places will allow it. You have a "grievance" with the game or OE? Return it and never buy anything from these people again. That is your only right. They don't owe you jack. Deal with it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's funny that a significant proportion of the contributors to this forum seem to disagree with your point of view. Still, you sound like a grown up, so I'm sure you can deal with that. And why do so many people have to "deal with disapointment and frustration" ? I disagree -- I think that giving people the ability to blow off some steam on a forum may go a long way to preventing a lot of bad will in the market place ... someone somewhere would only start up a www.kotor2diedotdiedotdie.org website. In fact I do have a legitimate greivance with the game I bought in good faith. (I haven't been so disapointed since I bought the last Lara Croft mess.) And, yes, I have written to customer services with my complaint. Finally, I shall indeed vote with my wallet and be more skeptical next time a Star Wars product is released to the public. But thanks for the advice, you seemed to enjoy giving it -- so my post has indeed -- additionally -- performed a mental hygiene service.

Nope, the original D&D books (the three little brown books ;-)) have STR, INT, WIS, DEX, CON, and CHR. The only classes were "Fighting Men", Magic-Users, and Clerics. Alignment (Law, "Neutrality", Chaos) was also in the original books. I believe it was the 1st edition of Advanced D&D that added the familiar 3x3 alignment grid (Good <-> Evil, Lawful <-> Chaotic). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well done that player! I must confess to only glimsing the old D&D books; we played AD&D with the new-fangled "Paladins", "Rangers", "Illusionists", "Druids", "Theives", "Assassins" and "Monks"! I do remember the alignment because it struck me is incomplete (easy to say in hindsight ;-) ... really digged the Gods & Goddesses book, checking out the stats for heroes and gods (good ol' Zeus with straight 25s) ... seems rather quaint now when we have heroes with stats in the forties and fifties. Still, my original point is that the KotOR characters are more like Paladin/Blackgurads and don't provide for any real bredth of character class nor role-playing development.

that's like the Fine Young Cannibals (British pop group) took their name from a bad B movie. And Lucas did base all his combat scenes in the movies on real footage from WWII. Good find! :D

... because censorship will solve all the greivances held by the CUSTOMERS WHO BOUGHT THE FAULTY PRODUCT. [/sarcasm] Really, if anyone who might be able to rescue the situation cared, they would be using these fora --- it's good business to retain customers rather than go out and generate more. For one thing, my disposable income is significantly larger than any new audience members, as I became a fan with the first movie ... the new audiences won't even have a disposable income for a decade. They've lost me as one of the "must buy" fans of the games. I'll be very careful before I ever buy a Star Wars product again.

Yes, I think there is a lot of similarity between LS Guardian and Paladin or DS Guardian and Blackguard, even to the extent that their magical powers are of the clerical sort (if you associate Consulars and Clerics) and their association with good/evil. I think Consulars are more powerful than any single magic class but Cleric is probably the best equivalent for LS Consular. In KotOR/TSL there is little difference between classes, actually, it is more like two flavours of Paladins with combat emphasis on one hand (Guardian) and magic focus on the other (Consular). The TSL prestige classes add some interesting aspects but so do the AD&D prestige classes. And the Sentinel isn't a class anyway, just a mix between Guardian and Consular with a few skill points and immunities thrown in for good measure. A good choice for people who want to play both Guardian and Consular at the same time, but not really a class or archetype in its own right (except perhaps in a Scout/Hunter/Ranger way?). The KotOR/TSL classes were probably done this way because you cannot multiclass freely as in other games. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yep, which is why IMHO they don't need all six stats. D&D only had four, I think ... STR, DEX, INT, CON, as well as only three alignments: Chaotic, Neutral and Lawful. That reminds me, aren't the Jedi classes meant to be alignments, too? Consulars more Lawful, Sentinels more Neutral ... Guardians more ... um, Chaotic ... Dang! There goes the Paladin analogy.

It's a pity you can't play Bao Dur as the main PC ... he ended up with almost straight 30s in all his stats ...

(1) Korriban, (2) Dxun, (3) Mines. Lay some mines, leave the area, come back and recover. The mines are still friendly but the game forgets that you laid them yourself and gives you XP for disarming/recovering them. Use mines whose DC for recovering is at least your taken level + 20 in order to get 15 * level XP for recovering, otherwise it is 10 * level. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh yeah, last time I played through Dxun that scene went on for about 25 minutes! Didn't realise the Korriban Hssiseseses were on redial, too, though. Nor about the mines. I only used mines for the sub-plot on Dantooine, out of both KotORs. I don't like mines -- stupid NPCs keep running through them, even when you tell 'em to STAY! Stay. (Sit Ubu, sit. Good dog.)

I understand what you're getting at. Remember, though, originally in D&D, the Hit Points where a concept that incorporated the ability to mitigate attacks. A fighter of level 10 (who might have 80 HP) would not necessary be 10 men of level 1 (with say 7-8 HP); the extra Hit Points were the higher level character's ability to anticipate lethal blows and parry them, together with general increase in fighting ability, resistence to fatigue and concentration lapses, etc. So, to keep the analogy, the lightsaber isn't really hitting the oponent to score "damage", it is just reducing the incidental fighter prowess of the opposing character in keeping with the parameters of the pugilistic art ... until either character finally succumbs to a lethal blow. Other ideas would be to have "targeting", "disarming" and "knockown" ("called shots" and "disarming" in AD&D and NwN, "knockdowns" already exist in KotOR, if in a limited fashion). Certainly it would help if all the characters could use the terrain as cover (I have shot and been shot by NPCs behind walls). It just feels like KotOR 2 has lost its way ... sort of a dead end in RPG development. I would have hoped that RPGs had moved on to being more hybrid ... including more virtual reality rather than more Space Invaders.

While I agree with your post overall, I do disagree with your conclusion. By your measure a STR-oriented Guardian/Weapon Master wins hands down. Nihilus: two rounds. Zakkeg, Drexl Larva, Greater Storm Beast, Sion: 1..2 rounds. Traya: 2 x 2..3 rounds. Everything else 1 round, except for a few toothless tanks like Kobin and some Sith lieutenants on Dxun. In areas where enemies (like turrets) are spaced too far apart for AOE spells the Guardian needs only one round for each enemy (jump - jump - jump - done), while all other classes have to walk/run from one to the other (melee) or play sitting duck while casting on average two spells per foe. Granted, such areas are very few and in most other cases you can Force Storm the whole room at once if you pick the right spot, so this advantage is more theoretical than practical. But it is more fun than spamming Force powers. Against non-bosses even a Guardian/WM can cast Stasis, Force Storm and Destroy Droid just as reliably as a flat-out Consular/JM. In fact, even with melee builds I always used Force Storm or Destroy Droids to clear away enemy groups, since killing each one individually and personally takes one combat round per enemy instead of two per room. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sure, I was being a little facetious. My experience was that my Guardian/Watchman took a lot longer to kill Traya and her band of lightsabers than my Consular/Jedi Master. But as you point out, it doesn't matter what (prestige) class you choose, the game is too easy. I was relieved when I received Force Enlightenment: three less buttons to push at the beginning of each fight. Apart from the lack of character classes to play, there isn't enough depth in story or character development to hold my interest. Heck, I think there's more character development in Rome:Total War than KotOR2! " The biggest disapointment is that, with only a tiny bit more effort, this game could have been very very good. A little more development between the characters -- and especially linking their narratives at the end -- and this could easily have lived up to its promise of a game that could be played through many times. The beginning and the end plot sections are too linear for too long, making the middle almost totally irrelevant. Incidentally, you didn't indicate what you equate the individual Jedi classes to in AD&D. I think they're a sorta Cleric/Illusionist, Cleric and Paladin/Blackguard -- what do you think?

The more I think about it, the more it seems that the KotOR mechaniscs are fatally flawed. They have too many stats that do nothing, and the bonuses are weighted far more to the level of a PC so that the stats are ultimately irrelevant. Case in point: what are Jedis ? Are they equivalent to Mages? Illusionists? Sorcerors? Druids? Rangers? Paladins/Blackguards? Clerics -- what domain? Ok, I'm over-egging the pudding, but I want to make the point that the reason KotOR seems unbalanced and generally lacking character (pun intended) is that it seems that KotOR is more like the old D&D -- i.e. before Gary Gyggax penned Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (and the current version is AD&D 3). And if you remove the battles from the game (due to their ease), then all that's left is character development and story. Story, well, that didn't turn out too well, did it? A rush of seemingly pointless solo sub-quest segways that don't have any referential integrity and even less intrinsic enjoyment ... And character development is limited: ok, you have to play through the game multiple times to discover each NPC's personal narrative, but to be effective we must want to find out. I just have no interest in this story after playing through a game that I found to be a tedious, excruciating disapointment. Jade Empire seems to be a better mix of character classes and skills, without the elf/dwarf/orc flavour.

Another problem with the KotOR engine is that there is no limit to the bonuses that can be added to your stats -- unlike, say NwN where a PC can only add 12 points to every stat. I have a character with 44 Wisdom (with a natural stat of c. 20). Considering this particular character's Wisdom doubles onto the defence bonus, this is bordering on munchkinism. But because there is no "higher purpose" to the game except "kill every enemy in front of you until you get the epilogue", it doesn't seem as ridiculous as, say, acting the same way in a more rounded game (like some of the NwN community modules). Playing Half-Life 2 (again) feels more like an RPG than KotOR 2.

That's only one strategy ... the "fighter" route. I can vouch that the "mage" route is ultimately more powerful -- if you are measuring power acording to how quickly and easily the Bosses are dispelled. In fact I rarely had to use my lightsaber. :cool: E.g. I played a Jedi Consular (10/14/14/12/14/14) and had final stats (level 29: Consular 24 / Jedi Master 5 13/28/18/17/44/17). Naturally, I also made sure I had the Lightsaber Finesse feat. " This was using only a singlebladed lightsaber (8-48 dmg, +3 to hit, +3/10 DS crit, Defence Bonus 1, Deflection +4, DEX +4, STR +3 and WIS +5). The argument for two single blades must take into consideration the fact that you get more components that you can max out: emitters, lenses, crystals, etc (e.g. adding Keen and critical damage bonuses; increasing stats). Don't forget that DEX adds to defence bonus when not using armour (and is mitigated by the weight of some armour), which makes your character harder to hit. If you can also add your WIS bonus to your Defence -- . Even though my character didn't have many Vitality Points, I never needed them because he always had first attack (Master Speed and DEX check for initiative roll) and I would cast stasis/destroy droid on the group of baddies and then force wave them ... my 789+ Force Points would regenerate quickly enough that I wouldn't even notice the battles' effect on the blue status bar. It took less than ten melee rounds to completely destroy Traya -- including showing her mercy. Some other good items: the Circlet of Saresh (is this the only named item from the first game?) for (WIS +5), together with the Robes of Ossus, a Jal Shey belt (WIS +1 and Force Defence +14) and a Mental Boost Package (INT, WIS & CHR +1 -- there are +2 packages, but they require a higher CON). So the "fighter" route is the easiest strategy, but not the most powerful.

As mentioned above, the vitality/force progression was just silly: Traya had over 1000 HP in the final battle, and I had 600+ force points. I have always thought that restarting at a lower level/losing levels can be explained by lack of practice/gainful adventuring (i.e. the use it or lose it rationale.) I too found the battles very un-challenging. Buff with speed, cast a stasis and spam force wave -- repeat. I don't have a problem with loads of easy kills (look at the Jedi making short work of droids in early episodes), and some of the battles were quite well designed: I'm thinking specifically of the Oderon second party . Still, there is a lot of room for improvement. I like suggestions like the Z axis and variable terrain and even adding extra skillsets so that AI might function. Perhaps the d20 system is really creaking -- especially since we're now discussing epic characters. A 20 sided die is an approximation used decades ago for hand rolling percentages for characters that hardly ever made levels with double digits. With computers it is perfectly feasible to devise a better method (if only to use percentages, or a "d100", to decrease the incremental improvements each level -- anyone remember 18 00 strength? :cool: ). Personally, I can't believe that there aren't any sci-fi RPGs around. (Let's not play another elf/dwarf/orc game -- there are plently already out there.) But the Star Wars RPG seems to be lacking some balance, it is true. Perhaps if there were some competition, then we wouldn't end up with half-finished rush jobs, like KotOR 2. "

What XP glitch ?

Funny, sence this is how I would describe the storyline of KotOR II:TSL. And lets face it, If KotOR's Storyline was a copy from NWN OC then KotOR II is the bastard child of PS:T. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm impressed you actually implied that KOTOR 2's story is predictable and shallow...wow you must have been able to really anticipate: - The story of all the companions, EVERY DETAIL the first time through by maxing out the influence system. - How you got to Peragus mining facility and why - You must have predicted all to well that the jedi masters would try and strip the force from the exile again - that you were going to end up on malachor v halfway through the game -Kreia manipulating you during the whole game for her own ends. Dont call it shallow...because everyone in this forum liking it or not, knows it isnt. That's why people were wondering what happened when they got to Malachor V the first time through <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hmm. I hate to break it to you, but: - The story of all the companions, EVERY DETAIL I found tedious. I DIDN'T -- and DON'T -- CARE about them, THEY'RE (mostly) BORING. - I found out how I got to the Peragus mining facility and why, by the first planet of my first play-through of the game. - I didn't predict that the jedi masters would try and strip the force from the exile again, but this plot device is totally destroyed by the fact that whether you are LS or DS, male/female and whatever dialogue option you choose and whatever choices you make in the cave, you still have the same narrow plot progression at this juncture. - I did suspect that I would end up on Malachor V halfway through the game; and - I definitely suspected Kreia was attempting to manipulate my character from the moment she woke up. (Check out some of the posts we were all discussing on the LucasArts KotOR 2 boards back before the US Xbox release date, if you require proof.) Quite frankly, as a few have already said, there were some good points (game engine enhancements; more realistic morals resulting in murkier LS/DS effects) and some bad points to 2. My main issues with 2 are: - it wasn't finished, riddled with bugs and ommissions - the end was confusing not because I had failed to follow sub-plots, but because so much of it was missing and obviously forced - it wasn't (more) fun to be a (different) character - the beginning was ponderous to the point of turning me off (so linear and long-winded). It doesn't matter if the story is novel; there is nothing new under the sun -- it's all been written before. I have to be entertained, to feel empathy with the characters -- feel their hurt and want to help them win. I didn't feel that. It felt formulaic. It annoyed me. The plot and direction needed a few more months' work, each; which would have given the testers time to get the bugs out, hopefully. NwN OC is okay -- I think the HoU expansion is best (the second expansion, SoU module, really was woeful) ... I must say, though that the community of developers have created some cracking good modules which put the OC and KotOR 2 to shame.

After KotOR2, I'm just hoping someone -- anyone -- makes a another sci-fi based RPG so I don't have to be completely disapointed with a sequel. Something as good as NwN. The fanbase for NwN is amazing -- some of the modules they have in the Hall of Fame, in my opinion, are better than the original campaign and both expansion packs. LucasArts, you've lost a fan with your cynical penurious attitude. I shall be very skeptical of all your future work. What was it the Exile said to Kreia in the cave on Korriban? -- Fool me once, more fool you; fool me twice, more fool me ...

There are so many bugs -- of every magnitude -- that it is hard to remember them all. Some quick ones (PC version): - dialogue options that didn't disapear after they had been exausted -- e.g. "Let's fight" with Handmaiden after she has taught you everything -- on almost every NPC in the game - the HK-50 dialogue at the end of the abandoned base on Telos, before the polar cutscene, has the voice and captions out of sync, making it very difficult to follow the narrative - a lot (most? all?) dialogues scroll through with zero wait between screens after using the Force Speed power anytime near an interaction. This even happened to me once on the final scene with Darth Traya - Force speed lasts longer than it should (this happened to a lesser extent in KotOR1, as well) with the added bug that when it finally switches off, the landscape remains blurred whilst your avatar moves at normal speed - Why does the little bat guy sell T3 into the droid bay? I didn't even talk to him on the last play through, so his character was totally unknown to that story -- yet, here he is doing T3 a favour ... why? - What is the point of the Force Breath (or whatever it is called -- the one granted when you go after Visquith in the Jar Pitt)? I have tried to use this power afterwards -- e.g. on Malachor V when triggering the gas mines -- with no effect (except the blue bubble). Don't get me started on the whole Malachor V ending ... what a total disapointment that whole world was, what with meaningless solo quests where it wasn't clear: - if you won the fight - if you needed to win the fight - what happened to that character after the fight, especially in relation to the avatar and the main story arch. I also had to run the game with movies turned off as they caused an immediate crash. I can watch the movies en masse, just not in situ, though I can forgive this as a hardware issue and not a problem with the development of the game, per se. If -- when ! -- I think of any more I'll post them.

Or at least you should be allowed to chose which body type your character has. Not all Soldiers are muscle bound , and not all scoundrels are slender,like in KotOR 1. They should add some more body types anyway to give more options then those 3 that was in KotOR 1. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How about a character that gets fitter as you gain experience? (Y'know, like Mr Incredible's progress in the movie?) Oh, and I concur with a dark-side yoda-creature, that would be worth seeing/playing (even if it did contravene the rules!). There is a Zabrak in KotOR2, but he is an NPC. Definitley the only value in different races would be to add diffrent specialities (e.g. playing as a wookie would give 23 strength). I'd like to be a force-sensitive Kamino!. :cool: