barakav

Absolutely not! I I am not paying before I'll get to play the first game. But ,if the game will be fun I will throw in more money than I did last time ,even if it's not perfect, I want to see this genre resurrected.

That way Obsidian won't get a lawsuit... The rights for the Forgotten realms and the DnD in general belongs to Wizards of the coast. And BTW they are behaving like a corporate **** and they sued many games for having creatures that slightly resemble anything they have in their lore. A friend of mine is still playing Tibia and they had to change their beholders after WOC sued them for using that...

There are around 150 different areas in this game right? so I guess that on average you can spend around 30 minutes on each... My guess is around 70-80 hours if you are fast and maybe around 100 if you are taking your time.

What beautiful creatures ,I can't wait to kill them all!

There are some areas in BG2 that were especially beautiful, mainly the underwater city and some areas in the Astral plane. I agree with you about IWD and its' dungeons ,but D:OS areas have a generally more bright and epic look to them and I prefer this look over the dark medieval look of some of the older games areas. About POE , I will wait to see it live on my screen, but it seems like the creature animations and the areas snapshots are amazing.

Are you kidding? There are areas in my country (Israel) where I canget stoned by mobs in the street only for not looking like an Arab or an extremely orthodox jew. I am not sure that I want to role play that kind of experience... I don't know, but I felt that even though the story was open, I still had to backtrack and watch the same areas too many times before I could move forward. I didn't want to spoil POE for me so I tried not to get too much into it's lore but thieflings are also pretty weird and yet they are not such an uncommon sight in the forgotten realms ,at least not like vampires are in the modern world. Part of the idea of having a game placed in a mystical and legendary universe is that its' inhabitants do tend to see some weirdos here and there . So, basically it depends on the universe of POE ,if those godlike are like ,say, the celestials or the mind flayers that aren't a common sight on the Prime material plane, it will be appropriate for the locals to react, otherwise if they are like thieflings you might get a different kind of reaction that depends on the specific individual point of view and experience with the specie. Furthermore it is quite logical that many individuals will not react differently towards you .

I think that they should have made this game in 4D: Actually I think D:OS looks fantastic. Better looking than many old IE games maps. But those are not the type of games that you play for the graphics.

First of all in many of the well written RPGs there is a fair amount of reactivity and it is mainly based on your behavior and sometimes class ,for example in NWN2 when you are entering Ammon Jerros' haven as a paladin ,one of the devils sarcastically comments about that and asks if you have come to cleanse the place of its' evil. Anyway ,I don't remember any point in this game where your actual origin (gensai, yuan ti ) was referred to. I never finished the game because of a repeatable game breaking bug near the end ,but from what I remember VM:B was pretty unique because the sheer amount of reactivity was insane (I also played a Malkevian). But I believe it was possible mainly because of its' unique settings and I felt that the game world was fairly linear and full of narrow corridors with less NPCs compared to more open world games. If you want to have a game with a totally different story or dialog for almost every different character everywhere you might have to sacrifice in some other aspects of this game. For example I can't imagine the amount of text that should be modified if every talkative NPC in Skyrim will have a different dialog option for every playable specie. Also I don't see how you can add this level of reactivity into a game like POE in which ,it seems like you can only play 'regular' species. This is not a game about vampires walking around among regular human beings, it seems pretty logical that you will get a reaction here and there from characters who knows about your origin\class but mostly I don't think that there is a reason to have the same level of reactivity as in VM:B.

I wanted to have a brainstorm about all kind of repetitive and reused elements in many plots and games and even to discuss about why the same specific elements or plots can click together and make one amazing story in one game and an awful one in another. Few posters got the idea and actually posted interesting replies and others just attacked me with annoying arguments forcing me to defend myself. And an argument by default is a discussion in which each side is trying to prove the other is wrong... Some posters also tried to 'talk' about specific plots of specific games and not to stick to the subject. I have no problem with that being in this thread as it is also an interesting subject to read about but that just wasn't the discussion I had in mind...

You know ,in real life science you have to rely on statistical power to support your point: For example ,when you are managing a study and comparing two or more groups of individuals ,you might assume that the chance that a single individual might behave very differently than most of the others is pretty high ,and so are the chances that two individuals. But as the number of different individuals in each group is rising, your hypothesis is becoming more and more powerful (until you reach statistical significance and then for no good reason everyone assume that your hypothesis is correct) In ME and SC3 case you can argue that non of the main plot themes is purely original but the chances that so many of the exact same plot elements were put together in the same way and the same settings by chance or by any other circumstance is practically zero! so as far as I am concerned it is a rip off. Even the chance that only two close elements that are related to each other and don't have to be will be the same is not very high so you can assume that they might be connected (And I am aware that the chances that two or more unrelated things will be the same between two games is extremely high). So yes there are all sorts of connections possible ,but I do believe that it is more probable to assume that a developing company that tend to repeat many of it's own cliches again is doing so based on it's former successful games and not copying them from different sources again and again. Just because something has a different context does not mean it's not the same idea. You should change the "X" into a "N" a context is related to the setting like where or when the plot takes place. I am sorry but in this case the content is different, your point is just like saying Pokemon and DAO are the same because you are playing a hero that assembles allies against some sort of adversary... In this case the Devil ""hides"" in the details.

*star control/ME spoilers* In the star control series you are following the trail of a precursor race that had vanished some time ago and in star control 3 you discover that every X years an ancient civilization of eternal beings is harvesting all the highly intelligent species in the galaxy leaving only the non advanced ones for future harvests. the precursor race nearly finished building a device that would have allowed them to defend themselves against those beings but failed. In this game you must finish building this device and you need to unite all the galaxy species for this effort. sounds familiar? many other main plot elements in ME about why the reapers do what they do and the stuff about "the order of the machines against the chaos of the living" are less convincing and appealing IMO. *end spoiler* Maybe you are correct but I do think that writing a note in a diary and putting it in your pocket will still work instead of leaving a message that will not be erased forever. Even after you made your revenge and everything... And I need to see the movie that joby just recommended . It will be interesting... And people are acting as though I posted that every similar modern age game is ripping off the old ones.And I think that the female warrior storyline is pretty specific, it could have been a gentle Arie like character or something like that... Anyway, I won't argue because you are correct on your general statement IMO. No, not it isn't. It is quite easy to tag at least two of the incarnations (three with the original) you're made aware of as utter scumbags, entirely deserving of hellish torments. As for not being a 'chosen one' trope... uh, OK. Not sure how you'd define the special protagonist-only ability of immortality and being the only person anywhere in the multiverse with the ability defeat the 'villain.' villain ,what villain? TTO is not a villain. At least not in the classic sense of the word he doesn't threaten anyone but you (and maybe Ravel which deserves it) and wants to be left in peace. Your mere existence creates more deaths than he does. BTW the lady of pain can also kill him by killing you. And your "special ability" is actually a curse. No one chose you for any great title. And the paranoid incarnation isn't totally evil IMO, he is just mentally unstable because of a trauma. This is not a KOTOR kind of amnesia story with obvious dark and light sides.

A.Again, I never posted anything about me having a problem with that but I do think that inspiration is an interesting subject to talk about . The only case I called a rip off was Mass Effect, and that is because some central ideas of the main plot were actually taken directly from star control. I am not saying that the game wasn't very original or great and it was definitely better than Star control 3 but it is obvious that Star control is the main spiritual predecessor of this game. B. Some of the posters who replied to me don't make any difference between general similarities like "both games have swords" or "both games have a villain" to more specific things like having a female companion with a powerful personality that lost her husband or having dreams as integral part of the main plot. Also the concept of souls and gems is also a commonly used concept as you can see in the Elder scrolls games. C. Those are specifics. The saying "only 9 (or 10, or 12) plots" refers to the basic overreaching plot, not the minute details of how they're brought about. It's just one of those sayings, with many grains of truth but not necessarily to be taken super literally... Anyway, games having similar plots is no different than the 1000's of films and TV shows with the same basic plots/premises. I can't remember the last time I saw a movie where the plot itself (not the details or how's, but the plot) wasn't something I've seen before. Video games haven't been around as long...but they are still going to be influenced heavily by whatever the developers of a game have read, watched, or played themselves. I can't really think of a specific game that reminds me another game story wise, because to me they're all largely the same to begin with if that make sense - the details can make them either more or less interesting, but it still all feels familiar. Oh yea? Try to find one single element in any game that is similar to PS:T. Some games are better and more original than others. You're kidding, right? The amnesiac chosen one on a journey of self discovery, and finding out that his past self is a bad person? That is 100% cliche. The 'weird' elements aren't a function of the computer game, but the D&D setting. Don't get me wrong, I like the game, but the (lack of) originality isn't the reason why. TNO is definitely not a chosen one but a tormented soul ,and he had many past incarnations and it is hard to generalize them as totally "bad" or "good". D.Repeats might be a very common phenomena in games made by Bioware ,but there are many different cliches in other games as well. There was a leak about Bethesda making a new Elder scrolls title. No one knows anything about this game except the fact that it will probably take place in the Black Marsh ,but I am willing to bet that you will start the game as a prisoner as usual...

I wasn't, but now I am. That's pretty funny. http://www.psu.com/forums/showthread.php/214782-BioWare-RPG-clich%C3%A9-chart You're not understanding the difference I was making between overall plot points vs. details aspect, are you? There is nothing like this game, not like its' overall plot (there is no real antagonist and your mission is to die) and not like its' detailed aspects. It won't fit into any cliche table like Dragon age and there isn't a single character that will fit into 500metrictones post about general companions in Bioware games. BTW KOTOR 2 was also a very original game and very deep in all of it's aspects. and the hero and his companions were special and their story was special.

Those are specifics. The saying "only 9 (or 10, or 12) plots" refers to the basic overreaching plot, not the minute details of how they're brought about. It's just one of those sayings, with many grains of truth but not necessarily to be taken super literally... Anyway, games having similar plots is no different than the 1000's of films and TV shows with the same basic plots/premises. I can't remember the last time I saw a movie where the plot itself (not the details or how's, but the plot) wasn't something I've seen before. Video games haven't been around as long...but they are still going to be influenced heavily by whatever the developers of a game have read, watched, or played themselves. I can't really think of a specific game that reminds me another game story wise, because to me they're all largely the same to begin with if that make sense - the details can make them either more or less interesting, but it still all feels familiar. Oh yea? Try to find one single element in any game that is similar to PS:T. Some games are better and more original than others. I just thought about the Elder scrolls prisoner fetish... Nope.

Sorry but I am not an Apple fanboy, and I never typed anything about it being a bad thing. I just wanted to have a discussion about plot elements that are being repeated in many games. BTW it sometimes do turn into a bad thing when a plot is being used too many times in so many games because it does start to annoy you eventually.

Oh Really? so the idea that a powerful race is coming back to the galaxy every 50000 years and destroying every living species is one of those 9 plots? Or the parts about the precursor race that left powerful artifacts and suddenly got ''extinct'' before they could complete their ultimate weapon/instrument ... It is obvious you two didn't play star control the plot is very similar. The other examples aren't rip offs but they do smell a lot like they have been influenced. I will be surprised if modern RPG writers wouldn't have played some of the original games and have been influenced by them. BTW it is also possible that the movie momento was influenced by planescape tourment or vice versa. What are the chances that two different creators will have the same idea of a man having amnesia and using tatoos to remind himself of his past? This is definitely not a reused or a common plot element.

I don't think it's a coincidence only because their characters were similar. Mass effect is an obvious rip off. I think that many plot designers played the original games and used their plots as a starting point for the new ones. And the fact that many plot elements are overused actually supports this...

I don't know if many people noticed it but some of the modern age games are taking certain plot elements from old time games and the CRPGs. Sometimes it's about the small plot elements like companion back story and sometimes it's about the large scheme of things like the main story and the main villain characteristics. I am mostly thinking about Bioware games, the examples that jump into my mind right now are the mass Effect series which took some of the reapers and the protheans storyline directly from Star Control 2 and Star Control 3. Avellin Vallen from DA2 that was a powerful woman who lost her husband and reminds me of Jaheira. Parts of the story of the main villain in DA3 which is a powerful and physically deformed mage that wants to ascend into godhood. (Irenicus) Also I think that at least some of the inspiration for POE came from Mask of the betrayer with all the story arc about souls. and there are more, and I am pretty sure many of the players that reads it will be able to think about other examples and I think it will be a pretty interesting read. Anyway ,sometimes I am wondering why certain plot elements are so appealing in one storyline while looking completely ridiculous in another. IMO DA3 villain is pretty mediocre while Irenicus was pretty intimidating, Star control 3 was rejected by the series fans partly because of the plot while in ME3 the plot was so good that fans wanted to sue Bioware because the ending wasn't satisfying enough. And jaheiras' character and grief was far more convincing than Avellins' was. Anyway does anyone else can think about any more examples ,or has any intake on this?

Dragon age 2 romance was awful because the characters were very shallow (and they tried to force you into gay relationships without any escape option). There wasn't any convincing internal conflict that was interesting enough to investigate in any of the npcs (They tried to do something like that with Isabella but she wasn't deep enough for me to care). In most of the IE romances the main idea was to give you the ability to learn about or change/influence one of your companions, DA2 romance was only for show, because they had to put something like that in the game... It is obvious they didn't have enough time for writing and were rushed by EA to release it too early. I think Mass effect is a very well written series and so are its' characters but its' romance options are a bit lagged behind the main story. Anyway , it was still pretty nice even if it was dumbed down a lot with all of the hand holding (and the glowing hearts). But I agree with you about Tali ,I think they made her a romance option only because some fans asked for it. It didn't always fit with her character.

The witcher games are more like porn simulators and not romance simulators ,most of the women in these games are sluts that can hardly wait to spread their legs in front of Geralt for every stupid excuse they can find (There is a fan of yours in the first game that will have sex with you for bringing her a a red scarf). On the contrary B.G has a real romance storyline which IMO is nice and appealing and helps with immersion (Arie is so cute! and it made me feel genuinely sorry for the loss of her wings). I think that as long as it is being done well ,romance can help you create a better connection with the characters and if they are well written it can be quite interesting. And when it's not well written it's awfully annoying (even if there are many women in real life that behave like sluts IMO this is not interesting enough as a story arc in an RPG, there are many porn sites for this kind of content)

What do you get if you multiply six by nine? (I love making jokes about base 13)

Well that is the ultimate answer...

For your first point ,It is obvious that Bioware was heavily influenced by EA to move for the direction of action oriented titles as they created Mass Effect (Which BTW still has an excellent story arc even if it rips off Star Control 2 a bit) and the last Dragon age titles which are hybrids. And I think I haven't made my point clear enough (probably the language gap ). Look at Evolve and how it fails horribly, most FPS players will tell you that it won't survive for a year or two if they won't add more content. Look at the Elder scrolls online and how it failed when Zenimax thought that they could sell their garbage based on the hype of Skyrim alone. It is a great risk to change a winning formula and try to appeal to the masses while you have such a dedicated fan base . If someone in Obsidian will want to create a game that will be popular among the average COD players, it will be best to start a new IP and not to change PE and lose the current fanbase without any promise that the game succeed. I personally think that the gamble that Bioware took with the Dragon Age series in DA 2 wasn't very smart to begin with ,even if it eventually worked ,as you can see in Metacritic ,how many old DA:O fans are now hating their new twist to the series. Also you must accept the fact that even in this community backers don't tend to agree on everything and you can't expect the game to be exactly fit for your taste alone. You might argue that a bigger fanbase means that each individual will have less impact on the development but I believe that in the important things the developers will make their own choices like they always have done. Today ,many game developers are artists and I don't think that they will happily change the bigger vision of their games based on forum posts and this is great! look at Planescape torment for example ,this game su*** as a game ,but I wouldn't change it as it is perfect only because of its' universe and its' story. Do you think that it would have been so great with the developers trying to answer to every fan whim and wasting precious time and money ? No ,I prefer that the developers of these games will have more resources that will allow them to have the freedom to create the games they envision rather than being restricted to a low budget and being more influenced by the community,

IMO you are not looking at this correctly, I think that most developers don't generally change their games for the worst unless a short sighted greedy publisher forces them to (EA\Activision). If what you typed was true than Obsidian would have already left the RPG bussiness creating only generic teenage FPS with RPG elements. It is more profitable to create both games that appeal to the majority and games that appeal to a certain nische and not to kill the nische related genre by creating an hybrid, and considering that there are so many majority based games and that they cost a lot more to produce while most of them eventually fail I don't think there is a chance that the POE franchise (if it will ever become one ) will become dumber or more action oriented if this is what you mean (a la D:A?). It is a big gamble to turn against your devoted fan base even if the game succeeds . Furthermore I don't think that people that will enjoy P:E will want the game to become dumber. Just to appreciate such games you have to be able to understand the mechanics and to get into the story. The casual stupid COD gamers who don't want to waste any mental effort on playing will not be interested in such games, but there are many strategy fans and some MMO fans that plays deeper games and might love this one and won't try to push it to dumber directions if they will join the fan base. Angry Joe for instance is a great fan of the CIV series and of the Total war series. Those games do attract intellectual people and some of them do watch his reviews.

Who gives a f*** about a game being a mainstream or a niche? If it is fun to play enjoy it. And there is no reason why a CRPG can't become a succesful game if it is a good game. I tthink that people only consider this as a niche genre because some stupid big publishers almost made the CRPG genre exctinct a decade ago but as a result many fans got disappointed (look at Metacritic ,how many people are furious aboug DA:I just because they expected something like DA:O?). As long as big companies will continue to push ****ty AAA games that might be beautiful but are boring, empty and buggy like AC:U and Watchdogs, and small companies will continue to create gems like Divinity Original sin and southpark the stick of truth the balance will slowly shift to favor the content rich games. Alas the 3D revolution did create many good games, Dragon age inquisition is a modern action RPG just as Mass effect was and it is a very good game and the Mass effect series was amazing and Skyrim was amazing. The fact that you like the original form of Isometric RPGs doesn't mean that you must hate any of the modern RPG franchises.