ItinerantNomad
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Attribute Questionnaire
ItinerantNomad replied to Sensuki's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
Hey Sensuki, good questionnaire. One design aspect that I believe you are not taking into account (and i'm unsure if Josh is) is that many players see these attributes as pretty much one of the only outlets where they can "characterize" their PCs and indeed PnP D&D sort of endorsed this way of thinking with some attributes being most "gamist" and others being more "LARPy/simulationist" and an intermarriage between the two. Thus, one of the other design goals that I believe many players believe should be incorporated into the attribute system is to allow players to feel that they are "creating a character" and not just a combat unit. Hence we hear things like "intuitive" or "simulationist". This is an RPG afterall. So either we use the attribute system as a way of recording what our character make-up is, or we utilize another system (like dialogue choices, for example) to define who our characters are. And then they need to be balanced as well. Now to your questions: Q1: The current hypothesis is that PE must have SIX (6) attributes because the IE games (and D&D) had six attributes. Does nostalgia require that this be so ? Would you be upset if it was 5 or 7 ? 5-7 is fine. I liked 6 because of its elegance. I stated before that there are too many "physical" attributes, only 1 "mental/psychological" attribute and this isn't elegant. Other systems, like Arcanum's had elegant attribute systems (even if they were unbalanced). Again, I refer to my previous point that many players use attributes to "define" their character as well, and it would be nice to have a attribute system that is elegant, combat-balanced, and story-relevant. One example was 6 attributes, 2 describing physical characteristics, 2 for mental characteristics, and 2 for soul. Q2: Do you think that defenses should be weighed against other prominent combat stats such as Accuracy and Damage ? (as in, should you have to choose between putting points into damage or accuracy instead of into deflection or willpower) As Josh has mentioned, the deflection attribute is the one that is the most used, and so outside of that, if the other defenses are equally tested in the game, then they can be weighed against other combat stats. Deflection should not be, because of its importance and relevance in every combat scenario. Q3: Should Health and Stamina be spread across two attributes or would you prefer that they be married in advancement under one attribute ? I can see good reasons for both. I do not care either way. I believe Stamina has more value than health. Q4: What do you think about Deflection be attribute independent ? See Q2. TL;DR Deflection is too often tested to be based off attributes. It would be one of the "ultimate" attributes, along with the "all damage" attribute. Q5: Should Action Speed be influenced by attributes? Yes. Again, as someone else eloquently put it, influenced, not governed. Q6: Should inventory size be handled by attributes like it was in the IE games. If so, how do you see this being handled ? inventory size can be handled by attributes, although the most recent inventory system didn't really make me feel that inventory size would really matter because of the stash. I have a poor understanding of the current inventory system to make a comment, but again, I believe that if the stash and a minimum inventory size is available, it is again (like health) a lower-value combat aspect. ---------------- Once again, I believe that any combat-spec that is defined by attributes should be fully evaluated to make sure that they are of the same "value". Sensuki brought up many good points as to why certain combat-specs would be lower-value priorities and thus the attributes should reflect this (multiple low-value combat-specs for one attribute, with high-value combat-specs having a separate attribute for each). The usage of attributes should then also consider the "story" or "character creation" aspect that many players expect it to be so. If attributes are combat-specs alone, then how intuitive it is doesn't matter. But there should be another outlet for defining your character's "physicality, mentality, psychology, etc" that prior attribute systems allowed you to.- 33 replies
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Attribute theory
ItinerantNomad replied to Sensuki's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
Since everyone is coming up with their own suggestions, I thought I'd chime in. I like the six attribute system as I think it can be quite elegant. Currently, of the six attributes, four deal with the physical aspects of the character. I would propose three categories for the attributes: mind, body, soul. Body Vitality - the constitution and strength of one's body. Effects HEALTH and DMG WITH WIELDED ITEMS (right click damage). Fitness - the dexterity, speed, nimbleness of one's body. Effects STAMINA and ATTACK SPEED %REDUCTION. Mind Creativity - the ability to think of innovative solutions to problems. Effects ACCURACY and INVENTORY SLOTS. Intuition - the innate understanding of how things work. Effects DMG WITH ABILITIES/MAGIC (not including the pew pew damage of mages) Soul Resolve - strength of character, determination, etc. Effects AOE and DURATIONS. License - will of the soul, power to control the wildness within or to access the wildness within. Effects CRITICAL DMG, DT PENETRATION% Defenses would be as such. Deflection as before. Fortitude is vitality and resolve. Reflexes is fitness and intuition. Willpower is creativity and license.- 483 replies
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Attribute theory
ItinerantNomad replied to Sensuki's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
This is why I think you should move completely away from the old traditions of might,intellect, etc and continue with wat you were doing with resolve. I understand that you're trying to use these as dialogue/story checks too so you make the term broad enough to fit both combat checks and story checks. Resolve is a good example. Resolve - charisma + strength of personality Facility - control over the body (accuracy) + acrobatics Power - strength of mind and body when dealing damage, ability to move objects with mind/body/soul Constitution - Intuition - etc etc a good broad term will help players think in the right mindset, even if it doesn't make much of a mechanical difference.- 483 replies
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Attribute theory
ItinerantNomad replied to Sensuki's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
Are you going to be making certain weapons have strength or intelligence limits before being able to be used? Will you plesae let the players know that if you do, so that we don't get blind-sided half-way through the game. Thanks.- 483 replies
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Attribute theory
ItinerantNomad replied to Sensuki's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
The nice thing is that they are all being evaluated under the same scope of combat effectiveness. It makes it easier to "balance."- 483 replies
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Attribute theory
ItinerantNomad replied to Sensuki's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
it might be nicer if intelligence affects total damage output and strength affects the range of variability in damage output. Something to that effect might be nice. Josh, have you considered modeling each attribute in some sort of system to make sure that each attribute provides the same "value" to players across the board? It seems that SunBrosolaire makes a good point, and perhaps it might make a difference that certain attributes have multiple derived stats (like strength with inventory slots and health) and certain attributes have one (but highly valuable derived stat) like intelligence and damage. Just to be clear, I don't care much for the verisimilitude argument, but I do think that derived stats determine the value of the attribute, and if the stats do not provide sufficient value to a player, they might not take it. But I guess that's obvious..- 483 replies
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Attribute theory
ItinerantNomad replied to Sensuki's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
It might even be nice to have a talent or ability that can do such a thing (even for a short while).- 483 replies
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Attribute theory
ItinerantNomad replied to Sensuki's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
Have you considered making any of these attributes affect the derived stats based on class, Josh? For example, while Class 1 Strength affects your Health and number of inventory slots. Constitution affects Stamina. Dexterity affects Accuracy. Perception affects Critical Damage. Intellect affects Damage and Healing. Resolve affects Durations and AoE size Class 2 Strength affects damage and durations constitution affects stamina and healing intellect affects inventory slots dexterity affects accuracy perception affects duration and aoe size resolve affects critical damage. Class 3 strength affects health and stamina. constitution affects healing. dexterity affects critical damage. perception affects accuracy. intellect affects damage and durations. perception affects aoe size. resolve affects inventory slots.- 483 replies
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Looking at the teaser trailer, one thing that really bothered me (and I guess I've never really considered it in previous games) is that the NPCs never turn towards you (or even turn their heads toward you) as you approach them. I think that unless you're sneaking, if you are approaching anyone from the side or behind, they should turn their 3d model head toward that direction and turn to attend you if they hear you. just a small thing i thought would be worth mentioning.
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Are you guys planning on implementing any terrain bonuses? Like elevation improving accuracy or range or high grass improving stealth, water decreasing movement speed, fire decreasing health, etc etc? It woud be nice, especially since you're trying to make your maps dynamic. I guess implementing this might or might not be easy, though I guess you culd script it into certain parts of the map. (if standing in area X, give bonus to [y]) where you've cordoned off section x to mean X.
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Attribute theory
ItinerantNomad replied to Sensuki's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Stories (Spoiler Warning!)
It seems to me that resolve would be high in the paladins. I actually like the fact that each attribute is useful for any character. Most people, I believe, don't like it, because they now have to sit and really think about what attributes they want for each character and a difficult problem makes lives difficult.- 483 replies
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The mega dungeon is already finished. It is too late for this.
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Update #69: Pillars of Eternity
ItinerantNomad replied to BAdler's topic in Pillars of Eternity: Announcements & News
What are the lyrics to the teaser trailer? I know it's Glanfathan, but I'd like to know what it says with or without the translation, either way. Great stuff. All the best.- 488 replies
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