Ganrich

Both sides have ***holes. Both subsets of ***holes are equally abhorrent. I feel for her, but simultaneously she cannot expect this article to make the situation better. I don't believe it is intended to make it better. From what I have seen the anti-gamergate articles of late keep dragging ZQ into this, and now she is doing it herself. The pro-gamergate articles hardly mention her except to say her antics were the catalyst for the movement, but that the movement has moved past her. Notice the comments are allowed in this article? Most of the other anti-gamergate articles have them disabled. Probably because every moron that comments against ZQ can allow the media to use it as evidence of the anti-woman angle in the gaming community? I am ignoring it, after the initial read, myself. Tinfoil hat off. I wish the articles against gamergate that aren't about ZQ had comments allowed. The few will ruin it for the many here. I detest the alleged attacks on her, and I equally find the attacks from their camp detestable. It would be nice for people on the internet to be held accountable, but I guess that is a little too hopeful... Kind of like hoping our media was accountable to present news from writers that aren't afraid to declare their bias based on relationships. Lack of transparency is a two way street on the internet.

The video I post a few pages back (clip from predator) lead me to this manly gem. It also includes Guile's theme from Street Fighter. It is incredibly manly. Rigorous and manly exercise may be necessary after viewing to ensure equal manliness to the protagonist.

Some low level spells will eventually become "at will" but the vast majority are "per encounter" or "per rest". No unlimited casting for you! Yeah, I worded that poorly. You get casts per day, like the sorceror, of any combination of spells in you grimoire. You can select a certain number of spells for the grimoire (Most at a time I have seen is 4). Eventually lower level spells become per encounter instead of per rest. I wasn't aware of any becoming at will though.

Nonek, if Obsidian's forums were manlier I would be able to like that many more times than once.

I still play Tekken with friends. We rotate fighting games. I want a Capcom vs SNK 3, though.

AP is Alpha Protocol by Obsidian, silly.

I agree that by itself AoE (given what we know about each class's abilities) isn't widespread enough for it to carry its own value. It must be paired with something universally appealing and fairly potent. I am still for separating Duration and AoE, but you can't just toss AoE wherever and expect good results.

@C2B - that's fair. If it were me I would just wait to re-engage the discussion until Monday, but you are right.

I'm fine with something like Arcanum or Bronze Age or Neolithic like Prime Junta suggested. Also, fine with lovecraftian. I would also be happy with a Weird West, but my idea would be something like Arcanum meets Weird West. Something that is Steam Punk meets the Gunslinger by Stephen King.

So, concentration is still in the attribute system and would work directly against the weapons innate interrupt capabilities? I am fine with Josh not being on during the weekends, but this conversation should either happen on these forums or not at all IMHO.

God, I wish Josh would post here. So, he is discussing dropping interrupt and concentration from the attribute system? I like those being part of the attribute system, but I don't like them being the "sole" benefit of an attribute. Eh, to each their own.

I agree. It definitely is need of tweaks, but I really feel they did the class justice. Bards are one of the hardest type of classes to do right, and obsidian has done it IMHO. I think it is definitely better than the IE Bard (kits included), and definitely more useful than the 3/3.5 bard. I do love the 3.5 Bard though. It is a really amazing class in the right hands.

I like the chanter, but I am a Bard fan. I like how the chant book works. It is pretty ingenious. I enjoy the laid back approach where you are buffing in the background and can fight while doing it. Occasionally using your invocations to do some really powerful things. It is as laid back as a caster can be IMHO.

As a DM I go with dice rolls if possible, but if the players are new I tend to favor stat allocation to keep player A from being mega-awesome and player B from being Mr. Mediocre. With new players this can cause issues in my experience so I avoid it if I can. In a cRPG I prefer stat allocation for the reasons others have stated. It is easier to balance for and it doesn't enforce players into hitting reroll 500 times to get an optimum result.

@Matt - on break at work, and sending this from my phone. So I will be brief. I think both sides of this debate can easily agree that accuracy and interrupt need to stay together. I also agree that might and con do not need to be changed. Keeping attack speed and deflection I also agree with because there isn't enough to spread around and keep any one of the remaining stats from becoming potential dump stats. Without attack speed and deflection there is too much bread and not enough butter.

Ironically, when I first saw that Barbarians got a built in AoE component I thought to myself "I would add an AoE component to 2 handed melee weapons." That would help IMHO. There are other things that could be done as well.

@Sensuki - I would be biased toward my hard work as well. If it makes any difference, I am 100% happy if your system makes it into the game. You 2 have done amazing work, and have earned it. I am just voicing my issues with it. Which I am willing to admit are also somewhat bias. Also, IMHO animal companions should benefit from attribute boni. I am unsure if they do. I have to go to work so I don't have time to test that. :/

Rogue needs a re-work, faaar too passive IMO. Really boring. They were originally going to be a more active class but they changed it. There needs to be some work done so that classes actually get a benefit from such things. I only expect the deflection bonus from an attribute to increase the animal companions deflection. Everything else shouldn't be added, but if deflection is added as a bonus to any attribute then the companion should benefit. I agree on rogues. I think the mundane classes need to see benefits from AoE and Duration in their abilities, or we need to split those effects from lying under a single attribute.

Deflection on intellect fixes it from being a dump on rangers as long as the animal companion sees a deflection bonus for it. They should since they share a health pool with the ranger. The stag companion also has an AoE component, and that makes intellect interesting in this scenario. While a rogue archer may dump intellect to a degree a melee could use the bonus from deflection to decrease incoming damage. These 2 scenarios are dependent on the build you want to have with these 2 classes. You cannot make an attribute valuable to every build, but you can make it valuable to every class in some way. I agree that I am unsure that these benefits are large enough to make them not be dumps, but intellect in its present form isn't necessary for these 2 classes either way. The rogue can lean on another party member for status effects if they dissipate too quickly. While the ranger only benefits from the duration on an ability or 2 anyway and very little from AoE.

Eh, I don't think that casters "should" get both AoE and duration from a single attribute. Why should other classes get to pick and choose from differing benefits but casters should inherently get both AoE and Duration to their plethora of spells? I don't disagree with action speed, but as I said many moons ago in the original debate that increasing attack rate is always tricky because if the benefit is too small it is gimped and if too large it is too potent. It is a fickle thing to balance, and that is exacerbated by the attack speed implementations within the armor system. However, I can still see ample use of it being possible, but you will have to make a sacrifice of AoE, Duration, and/or interrupt to get it. Choices are important here. On the note of Perception vs Concentration I can see your point. You have done more homework than I, and I won't argue that. I just don't like giving casters the benefit of larger AoE and duration where the other classes only see a single benefit from intellect because they don't have 8 spells per spell level to make use of both AoE and Duration. It may not be balanced 100%. I haven't mathed it out, and I don't plan to. I am going by gut feeling. So, I won't continue to debate you on it, but I really feel with Resolve being entirely defensive (with concentration and deflection) and AoE and duration being under 1 attribute you make cookie cutter builds far too easy to obtain. Tank? Max Con and Resolve and toss other points into dex or perception (most likely perception. Nuker? Max Might and intellect left over points go toward dex or resolve. Etc. It is what it is.

I will just leave this here. The Conan video inspired me.

This is how I feel. I think if you put too many "must haves" under any attribute for a single class then you have defeated this idea with the attribute system. Each attribute needs to be equally desirable for most classes, but not so desirable that you can easily see the benefit of pumping 2 stats vs spreading a few points around. I think this attribute layout has each attribute being desirable for most classes, has a lot of variety, and doesn't make cookie cutter casters to be too easy to obtain. If each attribute has value then each attribute will require choices when placing points into it. Where you can still have a nuker, but a couple different flavors of it. You can have the AoE machine, the Duration machine, the interrupter, a fast caster, etc. I don't believe that there should be a single way to build a ranged nuker, but multiple differently-abled nuker types.

You have to sacrifice duration, action speed and accuracy then. Which is why I said that stats are too spread out. Muscle wizard works tho. edit: I have no idea how essential these 3 are, so no idea how to choose between them. You want an all around caster. That is fine. You can build an AoE nuker or a more duration nuker here. I don't think that they should be given both, but that is my opinion. Most the AoEs are pretty generous as is anyway. Action speed I can give you with little debate. A bonus to Accuracy is given on many offensive spells. I think it is a +10 on most, and that makes it less valuable for the Wizard anyway. However, you could forgo Might for Perception, and gain a little less damage, increased accuracy, + interrupt capability.

Really? Moderate to high Might, Moderate to high intellect, and moderate to high Resolve. What is high or moderate is up to you and dependent on flavor. Constitution can be lower... as can Perception (since most spells get a bonus to accuracy) and Dexterity if you don't wear heavy armor.

I think the main Idea for splitting duration and AoE was: Might - damage and healing Dexterity - Attack speed Con - health/stamina Perception - Accuracy and interrupt Intellect - AoE and Deflection Resolve- concentration and duration This is how I understood Josh's statement on the subject. So in this example AoE would indeed be combined with a strong effect (Deflection). While Duration which is pretty powerful makes up for Concentration being weaker. Many classes that have limited AoE can still use Intellect for the Deflection: Fighters, Rogues, Rangers, ect. Where Rangers can make use of the AoE if they have the appropriate animal companion. The Archer Rogue may not need Intellect here, but a melee rogue definitely could. This coupling of effects on intellect also, as has been pointed out, a very Combat Expertise vibe. Where Resolve governing concentration and duration adds something similar to the above. Any class with any duration abilities benefit: Casters, rogues, fighters, barbarians, rangers, etc. Where the added concentration gives the casters the options of stepping into melee range more. The other benefit to this is that you get more variety in builds with casters. Using the Wizard: Wizard 1 - high might and high intellect makes a good ranged nuker. This needs to be coupled with Josh's AoE improvements or the mouse wheel suggestion. While you could be safer if you get attention from enemies with the higher Deflection. Wizard 2 - high might and high resolve would make a solid muscle wizard. The AoE from intellect would be cumbersome at times in melee engagement with coned attacks since increased AOE could lead to a liability here. This makes you hit hard, your buffs last longer, and you have good concentration. Replace might with perception and you have an interrupter build in either of these scenarios. Replace might with Dexterity and you have a solid quick casting build. You could even have a high constitution, high intellect, and decent Resolve and make a very tanky Wizard. I am assuming we can get 2 high attributes with averaging the other stats around 10ish from the point buy, but the current system allows for 1 or 2 high (16+), a moderately high (14ish), and the rest around average. I am sure this will be tweaked. Just using it since it is what I have seen in beta. I think you are right, Matt. Decoupling duration and AoE has to leave AoE with a powerful sister effect. Which IMHO this does by pairing deflection and AoE. It spruces up Resolve as well. It keeps those 2 attributes useful to most classes in a plethora of builds and can be very problematic to dump them. The other 4 attributes should be fine. As long as the Attack Speed increase from Dexterity is enough to be useful.