IndiraLightfoot

At 2:51:00 in the same video a Dwarven character get clipped straight through by the head and mandibles of the huge beetle, and also their respective marker circle gets clipped far too much for my liking.

At 2:49:28 and like half a minute onwards in the Pax vid (http://www.twitch.tv/twitch/c/5027673), you can see another animation issue in PoE. Each member in the party, when ordered to move, will do so with identical animations that are completely in sync, like a perfect Droid army In Star Wars. It's especially annoying/glaring each time the party stops at their circle destination in formation. PoE would benefit from a script that desyncs them slightly, at the very least. Also, the adding of some simple idle animations as soon as they have stopped would help. As of now, it's almost like six robots walk up to a spot and then stop.

A minor word of warning about IWD1 and the GOG mods package that you get with it. Like four months ago, my anti-virus program did a search, and found one of the files to be so dangerous that it quarantined it immediately. That was a first. :/

Great point, Sensuki! As for other clipping, in the lastest beta build at Pax, you can see that the marker circles of our party do clip into enemy circles. Often, it seems like the various models are pretty free to phase through each other. I can only assume that this is getting addressed. Also, a little more oomph to the hits animation-wise, plus some screen shake and proper sound (instead of just "scheek", "scheek"...), would be quite welcome too.

It can't come soon enough! Any updated info on when the patch may drop?

Say hello to NunGrata, the crusader nobody asked for, but she still turned up, unwanted, and said she had a mission to fulfil! It's my first seasonal character ever. Hopefully, this adds some extra spice to good old D3 RoS:

Heh, I am almost as clueless as you! From what I understand, apart from getting some unique achievements, you'll get to keep a few unique legendaries, plus some item designs for crafting (transmogs) when the season's over.

Mutonizer, good points: Especially about the importance of AI and AI mods. OE would do well to really make the AI shine. And yeah, one annoying companion that's forced on you can very well drive anybody crazy. I detested Zhjaeve, for instance, and her "Know that...". Thankfully, in Poe this will never be the case. A good story, then, cannot really make or break replayability, but it can give a replay a golden wrapping and a very nice atmosphere. We're getting somewhere here. EDIT: And I like I hinted at above, this thread is about genuine replayability, as opposed to just one more replay. It's about the stuff that crazy people like me do on rare occasions - playing a single player game dozens of times.

Well, for the first time in my life I've joined a season in an ACRPG. In this case, it's D3 Reaper of Souls, and I picked the Crusader, since that is the class that I've played the least. You get to start from scratch, your stash is empty, including gold, and it's tiny again. All your achievements are gone. But most of them are still there and available to be earned as seasonal achievements - plus there are a few unique to the season challenge. I had three legendary drops before level 15, and most of them were excellent. My reflection so far: It's a great way to get a true replay out of the game, instead of that meta-game-y stash.

Sure, the number of stories you get out of these kinds of games soon get a bit old, but personally, if I replay it for the Xth time, and I still tolerate the story archs, plot branches, and so on, it really helps getting the combat challenges and a fantastic FF-book all rolled into one. The absolutely best stories, for instance, the Lord of the Rings, have an uncanny ability to survive multiplpe read-throughs, and even reward you with more stuff to contemplate for every reading. But, yes, the story alone, no matter of how good, would not be enough. These are games we're talking about there, so great gameplay is pivotal for replayability.

Agreed. Luckily, I'm confident they are fixing stuff like this as we speak. A major gripe with combat right now is something Mutonizer wrote about a couple of days ago: Most skills are based on a percentage chance to work as intended, whether blocking, an AoE or extra damage and what not. The resulting combat gets a bit messy and hard to really be strategic about, since micro RNG stuff decides whether stuff happens or not, and then it only happens at the effect of a certain percentage, instead of just let RNG affects variations of damage, like in die rolls, and have effects go full on or not work at all. Josh & Co want to avoid hard counters, IIRC, like those wizard battles in the BG series, but still I fell that combat replayability would be enchanced if all the skills used had but a few clearcut outcomes: -full effect/AoE/damage (die roll) -half effect/AoE/damage (die roll) -no effect/AoE/damage (die roll) This would be easier to strategize as a player when combat unfolds. I am very curious how combat feels in the next patch. If it works decently, I will jump right in and try how it all feels with regard to issues like this.

Hi, peeps! I'd like to discuss some fundamentals on replayability. What makes you play a game over and over again? In many ways that's one of the best yardsticks for measuring how good a game really is. (Disregarding, of course, all those games that are brilliant, but only meant to play once or pehaps twice or thrice, and also disregarding multiplayer aspects, like those fantastic persistent worlds on NWN1 servers.) I'll narrow it down more, and let this discussion be about CRPGs and PoE specifically, since I intend to identify some of the criteria for making PoE a true replayability beast of a game. (Otherwise, the replayability in the Civilization series is still unrivalled for me. "Just one more turn...".) To identify which factors that have made me replay CRPGs, I need not look much further than to Obsidian Entertainment and the late Black Isle Studios. In short, some of their games have been so fantastic and replayable that I merrily became a backer of PoE as soon as I heard about the game, and I know that I share that with thousands of others that jumped on their KS campaign with glee. So, which CRPGs have I replayed the most times? Which CRPGs do I still replay despite them getting old and have lost some of their graphical lustre? For me, there are two replayability leviathans: -BG1+BG2 (vanilla: a dozen times, the whole thing, and early cease and desists, 30 or more) -the NWN2 series (vanilla: over 20 times, MotB: nearly 10 times, SoZ: twice) It's so bad that I'm not entirely sure how many times I've re-played them. It must be said that several times, I've just played the first few levels of the game and then tried another party, another character. What is it then that these two game series have that made them tickle my fancy so much that I still get giddy just by firing them up. My heart begins to race when I start the character creation, or when I meet Daeghun by the fireplace, or when I start my journey in Candlekeep. Why is this? I'm old enough too. This isn't some teenage obsession first love either. I was 30+ for both these games, I had played almost all CRPGs before them, and still I loved them to bits. Here's my attempt to identify those magical ingredients, and try to ascertain if Poe has the potential to become a replayability beast: 1) Fantastic character creation and character development systems. No surprise here, really. They were based on my favourite PnP RPG: D&D, so I was sold already from the get-go. I prefer the 3.5 ed over the 2nd ed, though, when it comes to CRPGs. I probably got a lot of extra immersion inherited just for being the classes, races and systems that they were. Still, when I try them today, not playing PnP D&D very much anymore, I must say that the freedom in the 3.5 ed, and the amount of fun you have making unique characters there is unsurpassed. Success in this regard, and you have one heck of replayability already, IMHO. PoE version: They had to come up with a new system, so it may take a while for me to get used it. It's clearly inspired by D&D. Room for improvement in PoE: Right now, like others have pointed out on these forums, plenty of the classes feel restrained in themselves. I know that Josh's goal has been to make each an d every class feel distinct, and particularly so in combat. However, I reckon, he's already nailed the distinctiveness, and he would do well to diversify each class already for the beginning. There should be like three mini-setups (mostly to do with combat, but not exclusively) to pick for each class form level one. For instance, the ranged-weapon ranger, the single weapon ranger, and the dual-wielding ranger. 2) Interesting, fun and memorable companions. When thinking about this, I had first underestimated the importance of them, since I have replayed the BGs and the NWN2s several times without them (in BG: pick mp and make an entire party), in NWN2: go solo or SoZ). But. by comparing to many other promising CRPGs, which I didn't replay at all almost, the companions turned out to be super-important! NWN2 actually has the best companions overall by far, and this has made me replay that series so much more. Stil the ones in BG are pretty great as well, great enough for me to want them around. I always picked new combos of party companions, and I rarely maxed out the party. I wanted to hear their bantering, their comments about the world, and hear more about them and their relation with my player character. PoE version: We haven't tried any of them, since the beta don't want to spoil anything. Thank god! Room for improvement in PoE: I can't tell yet. 3) Challenging and varied combat. This goes without saying. Both NWN2 and BG had so much combat, and still I kept coming back for more. Admittedly, plenty of areas were grindy, and some not even that well designed, but as soon as I had my particular party coming along in even the worst designed places in those games, it was still fun enough, good enough. And this all comes down to an engaging combat system, with varying styles of fighting off your enemies, and with a rich bestiary to beat. PoE version: Josh & Co are clearly aiming for nothing less! This far, it seems their monster compendium will live up to the highest of expectations. However, combat, as it stands, needs a pretty big overhaul before even matching non-replayability-beast CRPGs. The beta forums are crammed with discussions of what's not working, so I needn't go there. Room for improvement in PoE: To make the combat so much fun that you'll replay the game just because of it's there is no mean feat, especially for a system that don't inherit a lot of good will, like a D&D one would. As you well know, I am a proponent for combat xp, and one of the reasons for that, is that I reckon it would enhance the replayability value of the game, both as an incentive to do combat at all, but also for exploring the game in varied ways, and get rewarded often enough for the time you put in. Still, getting a high replayability value for a CRPG combat needs much more than that. It needs combat that is engaging and intuitive (including mechanics and UI elements). In this regard, we already know it will be RTwP, and as such, it actually have to work as a RT CRPG (it's easy to forget after all those people in the beta pausing heavily in the beta, but it's true.) Right now it's far from ready. The combat skills/abilities have to be much more readily available when you start combat. This is a UI issue, and it would solve a lot. Furthermore, a rhythm of combat is lacking. In NWN2 and BG (the latter being better combat-wise) had that goldilocks pacing in spades: melee attacks, ranged attacks and spells harmonized, and still the possibilities in combat felt complex and almost endless in RT! 4) Great atmosphere, plot rhythm and story branching. Also, in atmosphere, I include ambient sounds and lighting, and music. Like a good music score, I find myself going back to NWN2 and BG just to take a listen again. They are that good (well, there are always parts of the story that aren't perfect. In NWN2, you had moments in Act I and especially 2 that were bland. And personally, I found the wild goose Irenicus chase at the start of BG2 tiresome and annoying.) Both these games also dared to have various tempos going, and have plenty of plot threads running at the same time. Combat got varied with longer story breaks, a few puzzles, etc. This is also like plenty of good music scores. They are varied in composition. Interestingly, though, NWN2 and BG, had quite a bit of linear quest passages, and some railroading at that. It's easy to forget in many debates on these forums that even the best games had those issues, and still they were great. So, why is that? My guess it has once again to do with the story and a varied plot rhythm. PoE version: The ambience and music is really promising. The few quests we've been testing in the beta are simple, but they are that way in order to not spoil anything of the finished game. All I can say is that the rhythm in the beta isn't good at all. The small outdoor maps, the encouragement of inn rest spamming (means toing and froing between maps), the rather dull quests, it all ends up like a compressed humming. Room for improvement In PoE: The real game is hopefully already much better than this. I'd say, however, right away, that everything in each map can't be an encounter, story-wise, exploration-wise or combat-wise. It will most likely ruin the game rhythm. Even worse, with looting and crafting items replacing kill-xp, you'll get this precious story and atmosphere interrupted by Diablo-stuff: collecting crafting items, craft, later, have a stronghold hub, do some money sink stuff there. I didn't like the stronghold in vanilla NWN2 (except for that cute adventuring party that stopped by from time to time), and I didn't like its crafting. It may be the stuff that pushes this game over the edge, so please OE, be careful with this. In plenty of articles, and in the updates, so much have been about the combat. I really hope that there will be heaps and heaps of story added to all this. That's all I had to say for now on replayability. Which are your suggestions of making sure PoE becomes a game that you can play over and over again in years to come?

^This is the clearest you've been this topic, Gromnir, and I do read what you write. You know that I don't agree with OE on this quest-xp-equals-diversity-of-playstyle, on contraire, but I respect them for believing in their design vision. And like Josh has said on numerous occasions: Faced with a game design he made that's not working as intended, he would change it. I hope that policy applies in this case too. There will be plenty of possible solutions available then. P.S. As for addressing my gender on this forum, "he" would be more IRL-correct, but my avatar's named after my favourite and often recurring D&D character, and that's a she.

Sensuki asking Josh Sawyer about the quality of PoE combat in his RPGCodex interview: Josh: "Honestly, I think it will take us a while to exceed the complexity of IWD2 fights. IWD2 and BG2 were built with a lot of tried-and-true scripting functions that programmers and designers developed over previous titles and expansions. Like any other feature, AI in PoE is being built from the ground up, so we have to add layers of complexity over time."

Ashen Rohk: A big thank you for your ambitious class vids! I have only had the time to watch one of them so far (I picked the ranger, since that's the class I would have picked if it didn't have that obligatory companion choice). I really like your thorough approach, truly delving into the attribute details, and then the abilities and what kind of effects and damage they have. And that seemingly stuffed Dibbles sliding around those first seconds was hilarious! When I watched it, I just realized that each and every attack, by the ranger and by the deer, sounds the same: A metallic "schiiick"-sound. It would be nice if OE threw in a pool of fitting, though still of course just a few generic sounds, some a bit darker (thumps) and some lighter, just for the sake of variation. This game is intended for tens of hours of playing, after all.

^This, OMG, so much this! Similarly, the ranger needs to have at least one or two close combat build routes to explore. And like somebody wrote in another thread, the rogue would benefit from a return of the classic 2nd idea of a thief - so we need a few build options for that as well. PoE would be more enjoyable if this little increase in build diversity made it into its vanilla version.

excellent. see, we are getting clarification by asking questions. we do not know what other questions you asked of developers. did you ask them what were their impressions o' quest xp mechanic via formal QA and the considerable informal testing o' game so far? did you ask if quest xp were functionally discouraging players from engaging in combat as some folks here fear? were quest xp achieving goals o' more diverse gameplay and builds? were quest xp resulting in players replaying various boss battles to see what xp rewards were best. were obsidians pleased or displeased with quest xp thus far? etc? is always a good thing to ask relevant questions. am curious to see what answers the obsidians provided you... if you asked such questions. HA! Good Fun! Those are indeed excellent questions, which already had been put forward on these forums before I asked OE about this (just one dev, mind you), so I didn't ask those. My personal goals for an xp system: -Encourage and reward as flexible exploration as possible -Encourage as many routes through the quest matrix of the game as possible -Encourage and reward as many playthroughs as possible -Encourage and reward as many playstyles as possible -Encourage and reward often. It's a game, after all

So you think that Obsidian should back down from one of their goals and promises that they set in during KS campaign, which was "Avoiding combat does not lead to less experience gain. You shouldn't go up levels any slower by using your non-combat skills rather than your combat skills. We plan to reward you for your accomplishments, not for your body count.". Or do you think that asymmetry should go other way, meaning that non-combat solution should produce more experience than combat solutions? A very good point. Unbalance of this kind should go either way. For instance, set sneak flags on triggers, and with a few successful ones, let the xp stack high for the successful sneaker party. A lovely idea, and it's certainly straightforward to implement as well.

Some NWN2 modders had some freakishly good mileage when making mods. They could make entire games, 30h+, in a year - one single person. Others improved the AI for NWN2 significantly. The same went for spells, etc. In this case, I just wanted to get some facts straight. For once, it's something that I really know something about. I respect everyone that want quest xp only. In theory, I was just excited as the most eager of them merely a couple weeks ago. All that I ask in return is that we all keep the discussion about the pros and cons of various xp systems. Personally, I feel that the game loses an interesting dimension that's something far more than a vehicle for munchkins.

Gromnir: Agreed. It's basically what I'm saying: Josh & Co would be more than capable of inserting it (like I just wrote, it's already in, at least rudimentarily). However we do not agree about perfect balance. I say like Sensuki: "balance==banalce", in this case it's true for an xp system in a CRPG. Obviously, it needs quite some tweaking and decent min-max variations over the course of the game, but in essence: I want the game to be slightly imbalanced. This makes each playthrough so much more fun. As for my system (I said that in another thread): I'd keep it pretty close to the BG2 system, so yes, lockpicking and disarming traps, would be in, for instance.

I don't care about what you feel that it's fun for you. Considering time/resources, they should stick to what they have and use their remaining time/resources to fix/balance/polish the game and not catering some loud people. Unless that loud people want to pay from their pocket those optional systems. Then that's ok a long as the resource known as time allows it. The only way they will have the time to allow it is if the pro-combatxpers come up with around 200k or so and make another donation. They are asking them to overhaul the one system that has more to do with game balance and power curves than anything else. It would easily take a month or two possibly more to do just that, forget about all the bugs, polishing, and everything else you have to put on hold. It is a ridiculous request that is not as popular as people think and it is not going to happen. As a D&D CRPG modder, I can tell you, in all sincerity, that this is not true. Even a single experienced person could do it, and well in time, before release. If they wanted to have it in, that is. I have already asked one OE dev about it, and provided a solution/set up for how it could be done, even for free. He declined. Also, they already have some creature/monster/enemy ranking system in, since you have this "most powerful foe defeated" feature in. It's a design choice more than anything else.

The bugginess looks fixed, but Rose played her party as Fighter tanks while every other party member spams from range, which tends to be the most effective way to play atm (which is pretty banal) - something needs to be done about that. Yeah. It almost looked like it was a deliberate strategy for showing it at that time. Any possible dog-piling didn't even get the chance to happen. In a few cases, you saw monsters with big hitboxes overlap party members, though. Rose played like a turn-based game, almost. I reckon the characters in the party were slightly clearer against the background. However, the deer still looked like a ghost deer, for instance.

Hi! I love outdoor area transitions that look like compass cards (like in NWN2), and that's in PoE, so a big thumbs up for that. However, I noticed a small thing that actually bugged me quite a bit: When the party enters the Ogre cave, you get an area transition icon that looks like a big wooden door opening. It's still in the Pax vid btw. What I'd love to see are a few more standard/generic area transition icons: -For the ogre cave and all the other caves, a standard cave area transition icon would be nice -Climbing down into the ground, have an area transition icon that looks like stairs down, a ladder down Well, you get the picture.

Linkamus: It's a super-cool idea, and a time saver for Obsidian. They just need to sift through a few submissions and pick those that make the cut, it's a win-win suggestion.

Like PrimeJunta wrote the other day, whenever Josh takes the time and clarify stuff, most of us get happy and get to chill again, so Marceror's OP certainly is advice worth heeding. That extra work during the weekend or that holiday will pay off in dividends.