PrimeJunta

Oh please Stun. You know perfectly well that every cleric is wisdom-based. Dump it and you won't be able to cast those buffs in the first place. Minimum WIS to cast is 10 + spell level, remember? Every barb will pump STR, CON, and DEX, and dump INT, WIS, and CHA. If you're fine-tuning you might have 18 14 16 or 18 16 14, but that's about all the wiggle room there is. And every cleric will pump WIS and dump DEX and INT, which leaves the agonizing choice of making him a pure caster/undead turner (dump STR and CON, pump CHA) or viable in melee (dump CHA, pump STR and CON to taste). I'll give you the monk, the class expressly crafted to benefit from all/most stats. Which, as you've earlier pointed out, means that all the stats are meaningless, right?

The attributes seem a little wimpy now: the differnce between 3 and 18 in some attribute isn't all that dramatic. In line with the "double or halve it" philosophy of balancing, I say we double the effects and see how it feels. In addition, add visual feedback to the UI so once below a certain threshold (9, say) the numbers in chargen go red, and add a note to each description describing in broad terms what the gameplay effects of pumping or dumping it are. Example: "Resolve affects Concentration. A character with high Resolve is able to act even when under constant attack. It is especially important for characters who stand in the front line. Conversely, a character with low Resolve is easily interrupted, and should probably stay back and avoid getting attacked."

I want both. It's not one or the other.

@Stun the attribute system definitely needs tweaking, and some could probably be bumped. The only one I've actually explored is RES, and I assure you that does make a very noticeable difference. Try it for yourself: roll up two muscle wizards kitted in heavy armor, but dump RES on one and pump it on the other. The one where you dumped it won't be able to cast in the front line at all, or as good as, since he'll get interrupted all the time. Big difference, and contrary to what you say, not effective in melee. CON makes a visible difference to the health pool as well, although the beta is so easy at this point it doesn't matter that much. I disagree with your other point as well, i.e. that "no trash choices" necessarily makes all stats redundant. It doesn't. If done well, it means that different stat choices support different tactics. Dump CON and RES while pumping INT, then wear light or no armor: you'll cast fast and do a lot of AoE damage, but you'll have to do it from the back row because you'll go down fast if you get meleed. Pump CON and RES while dumping INT, wear heavy armor, and you'll be able to stand in the front line and use your full arsenal of spells without having to worry about friendly fire, but you'll cast twice as slow. I don't dispute that the attribute effects could be bumped a bit, but the principle is sound. Edit: yes, also what Mayama said, and what I've been saying less elegantly and with more words all long. (A)D&D stats are a classic false choice; it's an input into a complex optimization function with optimal values that are discovered pretty quickly. Might as well drop them altogether.

They already said that. "Every few weeks." That sounds like more than a week but less than a month.

@Namutree I was actually thinking that a 6-ranger party could be fairly overwhelming. Bear stampede FTW. That said, without any access to buffs/debuffs/counters, they could be surprisingly fragile. A caster dealing area damage that ignores the bears' DT's could TPW PDQ.

Haha, I just checked the Codex beta thread, and the usually-butthurt sure are there, venting their butthurt. It's delightful! Sometimes it's funny though, like people use words to mean the exact opposite of what I think they mean. "Having to follow a strict class template" = "diversity." "Designing to allow diverse viable builds within a class" = "being a control freak." "Designing to avoid trap choices" = "developer-created safety net." I'm pretty sure Stun and the others who are butthurt over the muscle wizard, for example, would've been totes cool with it if it had been a D&D class from a supplement: "Muscle Wizard: Prime requisite: Strength, determines bonus spells and maximum spell level. Bonus feat: Heavily Armored Spellcaster. Spells from Wizard list. Learns spells and casts like a Sorcerer. Hit die: d8. Base attack bonus progression: low. Saves: Will (high), Reflex (medium), Fortitude (medium). Class skills: Concentration, Intimidate, Spellcraft, Alchemy. Special: may only cast every other round." There, happy? I guess some people just aren't capable of coming up with their own character concepts and need designers to do it for them, eh?

Oh? I thought the consensus was that Might is the only ability you need. I think Josh thinks of the ability system in different terms than you do. For you, it's a tool to make objectively the most powerful character possible by combining it with a class. For Josh, it's a way to support a broad range of different character concepts. Frankly, my sympathies are a lot more with Josh. From where I'm at, it's D&D with its minmaxing that would be better off without abilities. There's really very little wiggle room within classes for ability distribution. There's no real choice there, other than the choice between pie and a turd which isn't much of a choice at all. If all wizards must be intelligent, all clerics must be wise, all bards must be charismatic, and all fighters must be strong, then why not drop the abilities and just give the benefits of those characteristics to the classes directly? With the P:E approach on the other hand, there really are different viable stat distributions for different character concepts. The backrow wizard can dump RES and CON because he's not going to be hit much, whereas the muscle wizard really, really needs them or he'll go down like a ninepin and won't be able to cast due to being interrupted in melee, so he'll need to dump some stats the backrow wizard could pump with beneficial effects--INT in particular. Between that and the heavy armor, the muscle wizard casts more slowly and less effectively than the backrow wizard, but can make use of a different set of spells because he doesn't need to worry about friendly fire (so much). It's different. I find it immensely refreshing that there is real diversity within the wizard class, that it's not just a careful optimization function that'll always end up with a surly absent-minded twiggy supergenius (or girl) in robes summoning, debuffing, and dealing death from the back row.

I can already tell I'm going to have so much fun with custom parties... The one that I'm most itching to try is modeled on the Grey Helms from the Malazan Book of the Fallen: Destriant: Paladin Shield Anvil: Priest Mortal Sword: Barbarian ...and Fighter, Fighter, Fighter to give them somebody to order around. Kit them all out in identical heavy armor and stomp all over the battlefield, or die in a glorious last stand, depending.

Don't know if you can dismiss them, but you can switch on permadeath and accidentally have them killed.

I only tried a monk once and thought it worked out pretty well. He took a lot of punishment while dealing out the same; gut feeling was that he was more robust than BB Fighter, armor and all.

Thanks for the intel. Has that been reported?

I think I'm seeing a pattern here. I get the feeling that some of you really don't like that it's actually impossible, or very difficult, to gimp your character at chargen by picking the 'wrong' attributes. And, conversely, that it's impossible, or very difficult, to make your character objectively much more powerful by picking the 'right' ones. Is this in the ballpark? If so, then yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not going to be changed as it goes against Josh's prime directive of "no trash choices." And yes, that is always going to make minmaxers unhappy.

So in your world, "being forced to conform to a strict class template" equals "diversity." Gotcha, glad we got that cleared up.

Full plate doubles your casting time from six to twelve seconds. Leather increases it from six to eight. Four seconds is a loooong time in melee. (I think they ought to adjust the numbers to make the difference even bigger though.)

I believe Josh prefers classless systems actually. Perhaps P:E would have been a better game -- as in more elegant, with more freedom for character development -- without classes, but that would have taken it pretty far from its IE roots. As it is, the classes are most definitely not a smokescreen. Rogues do point debuff and point damage. Wizards do area damage and limited area debuff. Rogues can only do it properly in melee, wizards can do it either from the front or the back, depending on how you build and equip them. You can't build an area damage/debuff rogue, and if you only use a wizard's point damage/debuff spells you're gimping yourself. Not the same. (And I'm not getting into a 10-page argument about this. I quite like you, Stun, but sometimes you're insufferable about this kind of stuff.)

Don't bother with this one unless you can find exactly what triggers it. It's been reported, as everybody runs into it all the time.

I saved the dragon egg.

@Ineth: I disagree, partly. I don't think the stats in and of themselves are unintuitive, especially if you take the P:E metaphysical view that they describe your soul, whereas your body is shaped by that and your life experiences (=class). So an equally mighty wizard and fighter will simply have actualized the potential in their soul in different ways--the fighter with physical strength, the wizard with spell-casting power. And socially both would be equally intimidating, since we respond to projected might much the same way. I do think some of the mechanical effects bound to them are unintuitive. Specifically: Might: Damage makes sense, Fortitude kind of, healing feels arbitrary. Dex: both Accuracy and Reflex make sense. Con: Health, Stamina, and Fortitude all make sense. Per: Interrupt and Reflex both feel arbitrary if not counterintuitive. With a reeeallly big stretch maybe. Int: This is the worst offender. None of the effects (Will, AoE, Duration) are comfortable fits, and two of them seem completely arbitrary. Res: Will and Concentration both make sense. So intuition-wise, IMO Per and Int need work, and Healing at least should be moved from Might to any of Per, Int, Res.

Further impressions. The game is easy. Yes, really. It is. Its main problem right now, apart from the high-impact bugs, is the lack of feedback in combat. It is hard to tell what's going on because it only appears in the fast-scrolling combat log, and visual feedback is poor. That means that you have to actually know what the system does and trust it to do what it's supposed to do. If you don't and, say, put a low Resolve character in the front line, you'll be wondering why he isn't doing anything, and won't realize it's because all his actions are getting Interrupted by enemy attacks. This isn't your fault either; it's because there's no indication that he's being interrupted, apart from maybe some animation twitches, which you won't be able to see well anyway unless you're specifically looking for them. There's a good deal of discussion about this already, and I'm pretty confident they'll be addressed. The more I play this, the better I like it. The difference between playing it well and playing it badly is huge. You can't just select-all and auto-attack the nearest enemy and hope to win, even on Easy. If instead you cast an area buff, march your fighter forward to pin them, and cast a damaging area debuff with your wizard, then they will fold in a round or two, without you taking a scratch. It's immensely satisfying... or would be, if it wasn't like walking on eggshells in order to avoid triggering a bug that ruins your day. I'm really eager for the next build, which will presumably have some of the worst offenders sorted.

Check the beta forums. There are several how-to threads there. That said, the combat in the beta is very rough and lacking in feedback. This is not a game yet, so don't expect one.

They 'might.' :paging Lephys: Thing is, the more I play with these attributes, the better I like the system. Yeah, Might and Dex are a bit too useful for most characters, maybe, but Res is certainly way more important for some than I thought. Per is the only somewhat dumpy stat; usually there are better ways to disable/debuff the opposition than Interrupt. In the current system I'd rank them as follows: Rank 1 (must have for most builds): Might, Dex Rank 2 (important for many builds or must have for some): Con, Int, Res Rank 3 (dumpable for most except specialist builds): Per That would be solved with some pretty simple tweaks. Move the healing bonus from Might to Res, say, and make Per affect crit chance to make it more compelling. These changes would even make the stats more intuitive IMO.

Nah, he's not Deathlord. The overall difficulty isn't much affected; playing with a barbarian or a paladin isn't any harder. Certainly less unbalanced than chanters. It's just a different way of playing a wizard. Burning Hands finally sees as much use as Magic Missile (or whatever they're called here, I forget). In D&D those types of spells were fiddly because you'd either have to deal with friendly fire somehow (e.g. Protection from Fire on the meat shields) or self-buff so you'll survive casting them from the front. Most of the time it was less trouble just to use Magic Missile. What I'm saying is that I'm really digging the concept. Standing in the front line blasting spells and surviving to tell the tale is new and fun, although the spells themselves are the same.

It is. It nicely puts paid the canard that he's after 'perfect balance.' While it's going to be almost impossible to achieve his ideal, it is IMO most definitely a goal worth pursuing. A few rounds of doubling and halving will certainly sort out the balance issues here. (Er, once the most egregious bugs are sorted so we can actually tell what the balance is.)

Oooh, full dose of Sawyer. That deserves a thread of its own. Please, Cabamacadaf, do the honors, would you?