PrimeJunta

Yep, MIG still increases both physical and magical damage. I wouldn't make any mechanical changes to distinguish between the two, especially as the line is sometimes blurry what with all the special attacks even melee characters get. Maybe rewrite the description so it makes more sense. IMO the abilities are fairly intuitive if you think of them in terms of souls -- an individual with a mighty soul can choose to become a wizard or a fighter; if a wizard, she channels that might into more damaging spells; if a fighter, he channels it into powerful blows. Given how small the toons are, you're free to imagine if and how that's reflected in their physical appearance. Or pick an elf, human, or aumaua, depending.

It was an attempt at deadpan humor. The implication being, P:E needs a muscle wizard boss, full stop.

I'm not sure. The combat is currently so chaotic that I can't really tell why my toons aren't doing much damage, if that's the case. Is their Accuracy too low? Is the weapon DT penetration too low? Something else?

What do you mean, 'easter egg?'

I don't like this. It'd just get us right back to where we started: cookie-cutter stat distributions for each class, or damn close anyway. This would also add more IMO unnecessary complexity. I say keep the current system but make it more impactful by doubling the mechanical effects and setting the baseline at 10 (penalties below, bonuses above), and make a few minor tweaks. I've made a few proposals; here's another one. MIG: Damage, Healing. CON: Health/Endurance. DEX: Accuracy. PER: Crit chance, Interrupt. INT: AoE, Healing, Duration, Recovery time. RES: Concentration, Duration. I bound two things to attributes that currently aren't, crit chance and recovery time. Both are there to make the relevant attributes more valuable, as they're currently somewhat dumpable. Moved Healing from MIG to INT because it makes no sense on MIG but at least some sense on INT, and moved Duration to RES to make that more attractive. (RES is pretty important already, it's just hard to tell because of the lack of feedback.)

Balancing two distinct XP systems is a bit of a handful methinks. I think it's most likely we'd just end up with two half-arsed ones and everybody would be unhappy. I'm all for a mod implementing old-skool XP though.

Some fights are definitely avoidable. Some quests have peaceful resolutions, and some trash mobs can be avoided simply by not walking into them. Incidentally, in the case of at least one of the quests, the loot drops are so nice that it's definitely more attractive to fight than not, even if the XP reward is the same. That one at least gives the biggest (immediate) reward for "murder everybody now." There were hints that the peaceful solutions would have repercussions down the road, but it's impossible to say from just the beta.

@wickermoon As Infinitron likes to point out, you can work around the deficiencies of any mechanical system by tailoring content to fit the weak points. That doesn't mean the system itself isn't flawed.

@Cthulchulain Yep, that would also make it possible to double the impact without doubling the absolute adjustment you're able to do. So you wouldn't need to reduce the number of distributable stat points.

Monks need more feedback too. There should be a noticeable sound+visual effect when he gains a Wound. As it is you have to watch that Wound counter like a hawk or risk taking completely unnecessary damage.

Haven't played it but skimmed through the rulebook. It looks pretty good actually, mechanically cleaner than 3e without the rigidity and MMO-ness of 4e, and very much the D&D feel. Also has much of its baggage, but that's to be expected I suppose.

@Malekith @Stun it looks like we're actually in agreement then, at least about a core issue: the attributes currently don't have sufficiently big mechanical effects. I even posted a thread about this earlier. Fortunately this ought to be very easy to remedy, just double or triple the effects and reduce the number of stat points accordingly. This could only get problematic if the stat effects become so big they erase the base values from the classes. I wouldn't feel entirely comfortable if a muscle wizard who pumped DEX would hit in melee just about as well as a fighter with moderate DEX. Fighters ought to be better at melee than wizards, because that is what they do.

Right: sorry, my bad. I missed that part. I will concede then that yes, a low-WIS cleric is viable in AD&D.

I would've voted "more than twice" had you left out the (A)D&D reference. I don't want the cookie-cutter attribute distributions of (A)D&D: I want all attributes to remain important to all classes, and to support diverse builds within classes, and I believe the best way to do that is to significantly increase the mechanical effects of the stats.

@Longknife no it's not. Consider Resolve. Double its importance. Hell, triple it if you like. What it does is defend against Interrupts. This will be important to every character that gets attacked a lot. This means every character that can be built/equipped for the front line. Which includes, at last count, everybody. The challenge is to make every ability similarly useful to all classes, without making all classes feel the same. This can be done by permitting diversity within classes, e.g. the famous glass cannon/muscle wizard path. I.e. I really do want both: that abilities have a meaningful mechanical effect, and that there aren't cookie-cutter builds for each class. That I can make a front-line wizard or a back-row wizard; an offensive cleric or a pure support cleric; a fast, nimble fighter or a slow, crushy, damage-resistant fighter.

@Crooked Bee That's a bug in the description. "Melee weapon" includes fists. It just means it won't work with ranged weapons. I just tried Stunning Blow and it worked great.

And miss out on spell levels 5-9? I don't think so. Unless you're intentionally going for a gimped build; Stun has said he enjoys that as a challenge of course.

Except that your muscle wizard still needs max INT (or CHA, if sorc-based to cast), and can't cast wearing heavy armor. Remember? (And yes, there is the Spellsword prestige class, specifically and carefully crafted as a band-aid to cover this very deficiency.)

Oh please Stun. You know perfectly well that every cleric is wisdom-based. Dump it and you won't be able to cast those buffs in the first place. Minimum WIS to cast is 10 + spell level, remember? Every barb will pump STR, CON, and DEX, and dump INT, WIS, and CHA. If you're fine-tuning you might have 18 14 16 or 18 16 14, but that's about all the wiggle room there is. And every cleric will pump WIS and dump DEX and INT, which leaves the agonizing choice of making him a pure caster/undead turner (dump STR and CON, pump CHA) or viable in melee (dump CHA, pump STR and CON to taste). I'll give you the monk, the class expressly crafted to benefit from all/most stats. Which, as you've earlier pointed out, means that all the stats are meaningless, right?

The attributes seem a little wimpy now: the differnce between 3 and 18 in some attribute isn't all that dramatic. In line with the "double or halve it" philosophy of balancing, I say we double the effects and see how it feels. In addition, add visual feedback to the UI so once below a certain threshold (9, say) the numbers in chargen go red, and add a note to each description describing in broad terms what the gameplay effects of pumping or dumping it are. Example: "Resolve affects Concentration. A character with high Resolve is able to act even when under constant attack. It is especially important for characters who stand in the front line. Conversely, a character with low Resolve is easily interrupted, and should probably stay back and avoid getting attacked."

I want both. It's not one or the other.

@Stun the attribute system definitely needs tweaking, and some could probably be bumped. The only one I've actually explored is RES, and I assure you that does make a very noticeable difference. Try it for yourself: roll up two muscle wizards kitted in heavy armor, but dump RES on one and pump it on the other. The one where you dumped it won't be able to cast in the front line at all, or as good as, since he'll get interrupted all the time. Big difference, and contrary to what you say, not effective in melee. CON makes a visible difference to the health pool as well, although the beta is so easy at this point it doesn't matter that much. I disagree with your other point as well, i.e. that "no trash choices" necessarily makes all stats redundant. It doesn't. If done well, it means that different stat choices support different tactics. Dump CON and RES while pumping INT, then wear light or no armor: you'll cast fast and do a lot of AoE damage, but you'll have to do it from the back row because you'll go down fast if you get meleed. Pump CON and RES while dumping INT, wear heavy armor, and you'll be able to stand in the front line and use your full arsenal of spells without having to worry about friendly fire, but you'll cast twice as slow. I don't dispute that the attribute effects could be bumped a bit, but the principle is sound. Edit: yes, also what Mayama said, and what I've been saying less elegantly and with more words all long. (A)D&D stats are a classic false choice; it's an input into a complex optimization function with optimal values that are discovered pretty quickly. Might as well drop them altogether.

They already said that. "Every few weeks." That sounds like more than a week but less than a month.

@Namutree I was actually thinking that a 6-ranger party could be fairly overwhelming. Bear stampede FTW. That said, without any access to buffs/debuffs/counters, they could be surprisingly fragile. A caster dealing area damage that ignores the bears' DT's could TPW PDQ.

Haha, I just checked the Codex beta thread, and the usually-butthurt sure are there, venting their butthurt. It's delightful! Sometimes it's funny though, like people use words to mean the exact opposite of what I think they mean. "Having to follow a strict class template" = "diversity." "Designing to allow diverse viable builds within a class" = "being a control freak." "Designing to avoid trap choices" = "developer-created safety net." I'm pretty sure Stun and the others who are butthurt over the muscle wizard, for example, would've been totes cool with it if it had been a D&D class from a supplement: "Muscle Wizard: Prime requisite: Strength, determines bonus spells and maximum spell level. Bonus feat: Heavily Armored Spellcaster. Spells from Wizard list. Learns spells and casts like a Sorcerer. Hit die: d8. Base attack bonus progression: low. Saves: Will (high), Reflex (medium), Fortitude (medium). Class skills: Concentration, Intimidate, Spellcraft, Alchemy. Special: may only cast every other round." There, happy? I guess some people just aren't capable of coming up with their own character concepts and need designers to do it for them, eh?