Hiro Protagonist II

Okay, so what would you prefer? Heavy Hitters as Obsidian calls them or Strikers as with 4th ed. They're all basically the same.

So what is your answer to the Rogue? And 4th edition is very much part of this discussion. Do you think PoE is getting it right by slotting it into the DPS role? Compared to the Fighter who isn't. I don't have a problem with a Rogue being effective in combat. What I do have concerns with is making the Rogue some type of glass cannon that can do a hell of a lot more damage than a Fighter and say a Wizard a couple of levels higher than them. It's what I've experienced with 4th ed pnp. It's become one of the go to classes due to its effective damage output. For our group, it's become the default to have one in our party.

While I like the IE games and have no problems with them or even D&D pnp (2nd ed, 4th ed, etc). I can pretty much play any system whether it's D&D, 40k, Traveller, whatever. A part of me still can't reconcile how a level 8 Rogue (Thief) in 4th ed can do so much damage in my example and the Rogue can do even more than that with certain encounter/daily powers. I still get blown away by it. Especially compared to a Fighter. And when you get to Paragon.. oh boy. I was able to kill enemies (minions) without actually attacking them (Shadow Assassin's Riposte). I could run around minions, provoking opportunity attacks, they would miss and die. My Rogue had a modifier added to my AC against opportunity attacks which made it even harder to hit me. Our GM had to have the minions stand there and do nothing while I ran around them. They were like, 'nah, I'm not going to attack you'. So that put an end to that. And I play 4th ed. I can understand why some people find it hard to understand how a Rogue can do more damage than other classes. I'm sure I'm going to enjoy PoE. In terms of innovation as per the thread title, I don't really see it with the classes atm. My opinion (re:innovation) may change when the game is released. edit: Also, a clarification in my post above. The Rogue's Stun attack is in paragon level, which is why I lowered the Rogue down to level 8. But still, there are powers a level 8 Rogue has access to that are just as deadly.

PoE is taking a lot from systems like 4th ed. They're taking the roles of DPS, Defender, Leader and Controller which is the same as 4th ed. A DPS character should be doing more damage than a controller (Wizard) or Defender (Fighter). That's why they call them the heavy hitters in the PoE updates. If they're not doing the damage, then they're not fulfilling their role. And I wouldn't necessarily call them OP compared to every class because other classes have different roles. But in terms of damage output, then they do have it over classes like Fighters, Druids, Clerics, and in a lot of respects Wizards. And PoE is taking things like encounter and daily powers. Also, the Fighter has to hit and the Rogue has immediate interrupts like Swift Parry that can cause the Fighter to miss. The Rogue has really good defences with AC and especially with Reflex. And stun can be countered with Heroic Effort on saves if you haven't used it already or if you've taken Superior Will which is what I do with my Rogue around or just before Paragon level, as you get two saves per encounter. One save at the start and one at the end. If you save at the start, then you can keep attacking and it doesn't affect you. If you haven't used your Heroic Effort, a 6 or more on a d20 is required to save. Also, the Rogue has a Stun attack (that can do sneak attack damage) as well. The Rogue can effectively stun the Fighter in the first attack and finish him off in the second attack. The Rogue's stun attack has no save so the Fighter can't do anything until the end of the Rogue's next turn. So effectively, the Rogue has two turns and can finish him off. This is an encounter power I use with my build in pnp but I didn't use it in my example because I didn't want to use OP powers. Note I said 'encounter power'? Yep, the Rogue can stun on every encounter and it's not a daily power. After the encounter, the rogue automatically gets that power back. So in trying to balance the game, has PoE done the right things with their classes? We'll just have to wait and see.

No, the Wizard can only cast one fireball. They can't cast a few. And certainly not every encounter. They can only cast one fireball a day. That's why it's called a daily power. Daily means day. If there's four or five encounters during the day and they've used the fireball in the first encounter, then that's it for the rest of the day. Also, the human rogue has one of the best attacks in 4th ed. Superior reflexes gives a +2 to rolls with combat advantage in the first attack during the encounter and another +4 with Heroic effort. Even without Heroic effort, you basically have to roll around a 5 or more on a d20 to hit because combat advantage gives you a +2 to attack rolls. I know because I've played the class for 3 years in pnp. And if I roll under 5, use Heroic effort with a +4 (with the exception of a 1 due to critical miss). I usually save the heroic effort for dailies. So it's incredibly rare that you miss, and when you hit, you do massive damage. And you think a fighter can withstand 7d8 + 3d6 + 31 (average damage of 68, maximum damage of 105 not including crit dice) in the first attack with encounter powers and standard sneak attack which it can do on every attack (more with dailies) when a Fighter has around 85 hit points? He may well be very much dead before he gets off an attack if I was using Daily powers. Certainly will be dead in the second attack. And the Fighter does not have the damage output to kill a rogue in one attack. Their role is to tank, not deal out damage. And the Rogue build I made isn't even one I use and made it up in the character builder in less than 5 minutes. It was only using a +1 weapon. I could make an even more powerful one. I do use one that is more powerful for Lair Assault encounters.

If we're talking D&D and having played a Rogue in 4th ed for around 3 years now, do you think the following is okay for say a level 8 human rogue? At the start of combat, Rogue (Thief) rushes in and attacks an enemy and does the following damage: -Backstab 3d8 + 3d6 + 11 (Superior Reflexes, Backstab replaces encounter power Positioning Strike, sneak attack, challenge seeking +1 weapon, and a +3 attack to the roll). -Low Slash 1d8 + 9 -Sly Flourish 3d8 + 11 (Action Point, Slaying Action) So that's 7d8 + 3d6 + 31 damage in the first attack. And this is a level 8 human rogue. And if the Rogue misses one of those attacks, they can use Heroic Effort to get a +4 attack bonus to hit on that missed attack to hit. So it's like a re-roll (reload). Now if the enemy attacks the Rogue, the Rogue can use Swift Parry as an Immediate Interrupt and gets a +2 to their AC. Whether the attack hits or misses and it may very well miss due to that +2 to their AC, the rogue gets combat advantage again against the enemy and can sneak attack and doesn't need anyone to help flank. So the rogue then attacks again: -Rogue's Luck, 4d8 + 9 (Sneak Attack from Swift Parry) So in two attacks, the rogue has done 11d8 + 3d6 + 40 damage. And I haven't used my daily powers which deal more damage. These are all encounter powers or an At-Will power (Sly Flourish) Technically, an Action Point is a daily power, but what I mean is actual daily powers like Trick Strike which can do 5d8 + 9 as a sneak attack or 5d8 + 1d6 + 9 on an enemy on full health. Compared to a level 10 Wizard who fires a fireball: 4d6 + 15 damage (and this is a daily power and can be used only once a day) Note that the level 8 rogue's trick strike could do more damage than this level 10 fireball. So you're okay with a rogue being able to deal out this much damage than most classes, even higher classes like a level 10 Wizard throwing a fireball?

You don't have to look hard.

And yet, there seems to be a lot of dislike for the game from a lot of posters on this forum. Especially BG2 and the arguments how bad it was and how it handled things. eg. spells, ruleset, no variety, etc

PoE will take Balance to new heights of innovation.

Excellent strawman! Let me put it this way, and be done with you and your ignorance of other people's exact arguments: You either believe that a publisher is capable of detrimenting a game's development timeline/progress (in which case you don't actually disagree with my point, because that's all it is), or you believe they are incapable of doing so. So, maybe figure out which you believe, and you'll be doing yourself a solid. To you and to Volourn... "It could be poor handling on the publisher's part.[/i]" There. Prove that's impossible, and we'll talk more. Otherwise, we don't even have an argument, besides "Who knows best what Lephys is trying to say with his very own words? Lephys, or not-Lephys?". I'll leave the two of you to that one, if that's the one you want to go with. No Lephys. You can have two similar games with the same level of interference from their respective publishers and one can be a critical success while the other can be poorly received. It doesn't necessarily reside solely with the publisher. The general gaming public can also be fickle with what they like to play. Also, prove a negative? Not up to me to prove the impossible, Nice try though. You seem to ignore the fact that when games are received with critical acclaim that there may have been a lot of interference with the publishers.

Really? That must be it!!! There wasn't as much interference by the publishers with highly praised critically received games when they're released. So now we have it everyone. When a highly praised critically received game is released = less publisher interference and the team simply overcame it. But when a poorly received game is released = more publisher interference and the team didn't get over it. And why wouldn't someone comment on the traffic on their way to work even if they get on time? In fact, some people do this very thing to let others know that route A is a bad way to go, so go route B instead.

I've always wondered why when games are released and they're highly praised, there's very little to no mention of publisher interferences. eg. the IE games.

It is very inconvenient and I don't like it either. I've travelled and encountered that problem too. And when you get home, you may have to re-verify the ip range that you're in again. Or you can have two homes and whenever you travel to either, it flags it as well. It doesn't have to be a different country. It could be a different suburb in the same city and the flags go up.

It's okay Gromnir. We know you like to state things like "bio knew how and why things worked". We know Overhaul has former bio employees. We know Overhaul had access to Bio's offices to get what they needed. Overhaul is supposed to be enhancing an already finished game which they helped to create when they were at Bio. And yet you bring in the usual red herring like compare Overhaul to BIS due to BIS having problems with IE engine, therefore Overhaul has problems. Despite the fact that Overhaul has former Bio employees and should know "how and why things worked". Gromnir's illogical stupidity at its best, which is to say there is no logic. Gromnir jumping to one point to another, believing the hyperbole. You can have the last say because it seems you're itching to do so.

And you keep repeating yourself Gromnir. Going around in circles, evading the simple facts of what you said about "bio knew how and why things worked". And now you don't want to even acknowledge what you said. The facts speak for themselves. And why are you quoting myself about coding disasters that don't miraculously work? Do you honestly believe that they do? Even Nep said that was hyperbole with what he said. You now believe Nep's hyperbole? Yep, am wondering how many times you're going to believe the exaggerations and the hyperbole.

rofl. I did notice that the story was getting deeper and deeper, that eventually it ended up so deep they couldn't go any deeper. So they changed it at the 4.25m stretch goal as 'longer story'.

oh well, if you said it, it must be true. say it again and maybe it will stick, right? but this is getting mighty repetitive. "Also, the fact is Nepenthe said (unsubstantiated and pure speculation) that the coding was a disaster that miraculously worked." again, black isle made similar observations about the ie, so while nep did not support, the claim that his observations is unsubstantiated is making you look silly. you try to imagine-away the fact that bis made same/similar observations as nep... which is why bis IS relevant no matter how many times you do the little kid routine: pre-adolescent screaming "no it isn't" over and over as if volume and sheer stubbornness will make truth. well, say something new. please. HA! Good Fun! Gromnir, you seem to be missing the point you said: Overhaul games have original bio employees who worked on BG. You're now comparing Overhaul (former Bio employees who knew how and why things worked) with BIS? Because BIS had trouble with the IE engine, therefore it follows Overhaul has problems with IE engine, regardless that Overhaul are former Bio employees and Bio knew how and why things worked. You're also comparing Overhaul (former Bio employees who knew how and why things worked) with re-doing a game and engine they already had experienced with to BIS who was creating a new game (IWD) with an engine they haven't created a game before with it. You're comparing experienced former Bio employees (who knew how and why things worked) to BIS employees who were new to the engine, since you said this was their first game with it. Even Nep said there should be a level playing field. So why not you? HA! Good Fun!

Wrong as always Lephys. I'm willing to talk about the topics raised in this thread, unlike you who has jumped into the thread and took it off topic as shown in my previous post.

I've shown you how some people troll these forums and you 'like' their posts. I suspect, mainly because those posts are against those you disagree with. Someone trolls against Hiro or others you disagree with, you 'like' that post. And yet you accuse others of being spiteful and not yourself. And what discussion would that be? The actual thread topic? The discussion that was being had prior to Ffordesoon's troll bait off topic post? And then when the topic did get back on topic and I was continuing the discussion with my posts, Ffordesoon continues to troll. Despite that I still continue with the discussion with another post even though Ffordesoon admits he doesn't want to engage in the topic and just attack people by back bench moderating. And what's your contribution when we try and get it back on topic? Your first post is a troll post as well. What was the point of this post? Why didn't you engage in the topic instead of swiping and attacking? Just seems you can't help yourself and want to take off where Ffordesoon left off which is what you did. And a completely honest critique? I've also presented a completely honest critique of you. And you are lying when you won't admit to what I've shown, you dodge and weave and then fling that back onto other people.

Do you?

^ poster who likes Troll posts.

The fact is Tajerio has admitted he trolls and enjoys it. And I called him out on it and I called you out for liking his troll posts against people like myself. The one that's spiteful is you. You're the one that's being intentionally spiteful as there's no reason to like a troll post. Nice try to aim it on us but it won't work. And you continue with posts by attacking us with being 'spiteful'? The nonsense is all on your part and trying to deflect it on us. No Lephys. All you do is backtrack and try to weasel your way out when you do get caught out.

Crafting is one that I'm most happy with. I haven't spent much time crafting gems (only diamonds for resistance and emeralds for weapons) and glad to see it's been dropped down to Marquis gems for weapons and items. Also happy with the increased drop rates for materials. I did about 25 runs on T1, killing Celik in Pandemonium 2 for angelic shards and none dropped at all. Still don't have any angelic shards since playing RoS. So it'll be good to actually play tonight and do Celik runs to get them so I can craft some weapons for my HC monk.

I agree. It would be good to see Obsidian produce one AAA RPG which is their own IP. Other companies have managed to do it. I'd like Obsidian to do the same.

I was more curious to understand the process time in different stages. It may take 6 weeks for concept to final model and assume there's quite a few animators. Are there stages in where one animator does most of the work and passes it onto another animator to finish it off? Or does the one animator stay with that model from concept to finish product. If it takes a month and a half (6 weeks) to do one model, after a year (taking into account things like holidays), so that one animator has done about 8 models for the year? How many models are in the game? How many animators are needed to do all the models? Sounds like a lot of work, time, money and resources to what appears to be a small output of models for one animator over the course of a year. Perhaps Obdisian has ways to streamline or make the process more efficient to push out more models. I don't know much about making crpg's and the work involved which is why I was asking.