Hiro Protagonist II

I know I do and I can already see some min-maxing already with both the S&M and Josh's new system..

I wish they went more IE like including different types of ammo. You could put a couple of arrows of detonation in your first slot and then arrows of biting in your second slot. Your character could shoot fireballs and then shoot arrows that did poison damage. Or acid and fire arrows to kill trolls. Your character could change to different types of arrows if you wanted them to. So much good and various types of ammo that was fun and provided a good tactical challenge.

Another way for me to explain it is: With my Rogue, I can do various things but ultimately -> I want to be able to sneak attack every time. With my Fighter, I can do various things but this will -> creates various outcomes. And If I want to stun an opponent with a special attack with my Fighter, I have to go through Knockdown, daze and then stun which is 3 attacks.

Hitting an enemy while prone, stunned, dazed, etc activates the special attack depending on the status. It still feels a little convoluted to me with these special attacks with the Fighter. You're turning it into a Rogue like Fighter with these special attacks. For example: 1. No status effects + normal attack = normal damage 2. Special attack such as Knockdown power (knocks down enemy, makes them prone). Small amount a damage to enemy. [currently in the game] 3. Prone target + hit makes it a special attack (Special attack could be to daze the target?) 4. Dazed target + hit makes it a special attack (Special attack could stun the target?) I don't know. It's quite messy. The rogue is easy because the special attack can include the sneak attack. It doesn't change. What proceeds it can be various things. (eg. flanking, hobbled, prone, etc) -> Sneak Attack. And if you do any of the various attacks like crippling strike, riposte, etc and are flanking or the enemy has a status effect that helps with sneak attack, then -> sneak attack. With this proposal for the fighter, it seems to be what proceeds the special attack can be various things leading to various attacks. eg. various things -> various attacks. Putting out different status effects dependant on what proceeded it. While the fighter is defending and holding the line, it's quite hard to follow. The Rogue just puts out extra damage which is what it's supposed to do, being a heavy hitter.

Those spells are quite intuitive. Breach is to breach defences so everyone that attacks can get their attacks through. Timestop stops everything and your mage is the one on the screen that's moving. That's fairly simple. The Fighter in PoE has abilities that helps themselves or the companions. Knockdown knocks down opponents. That helps the Rogue with sneak attack. Constant recovery recovers stamina to keep the Fighter standing. Into the Fray yanks enemies into melee which protects your back line. Guardian is an ability that increases deflection for allies in a short range. So what extra abilities do you want the Fighter to have? What abilities would help with holding the front line for your party? More status affects like stun, dazed, frozen, etc? So maybe an attack like if an enemy is prone from the previous turn is hit by the Fighter again, it makes them dazed or stunned? How do you incorporate that into the game?

No you didn't. And it's not a combo that the rogue is doing when another class is helping the rogue. If you want the Fighter to produce something defensive before their turn, they can do that already. And that may help with their next turn with another attack. They don't need combo's with X attack from previous turn (eg. prone, stun, paralyse, etc) + Y attack this turn = Z special attack this turn. If anything, it should be conditions + special attack. And in relation to the Rogue, that's what happens. They either sneak attack or they don't. And if they are sneak attacking, then the Y attack is the sneak attack. If the rogue is flanking, they will always sneak attack. And the sneak attack can depend on encounter start, where they are (flanking) or if a status effect is on the enemy. Yes you are. And you haven't answered all my questions. You've just talked past me and come up with your own convoluted examples. I gave reasons and you're now trying to compare a Fighter to a Chanter or whatever class. It won't work.

Good to see Lephys is back in Lephysland. Contradicting himself and talking in circles. You're not answering questions, you're making up stuff on the run and just being argumentative. I clearly stated reasons why combo attacks would be worse for PoE. You can't accept that. I get it.

When you use the word boni, I assume you mean bonuses?

No it's not. It's not the same. That's like saying the Priest who casts Pillar of Faith that prones enemies, also get a second attack. They don't. They get a second attack in their next turn. Well the priests Pillar of Faith can cause the rogue to sneak attack against that prone enemy. And stop with the strawman arguments. It doesn't help your argument.

Can you answer the question and show me how a rogue can be a defender? I did address it. And you don't know what roles are which is why I gave you an example of the Rogue. His role is not completely moot. Just because you say it is doesn't mean it is. You're completely wrong on this. The role is important to distinguish the Rogue from a controller or defender or leader. So it is combing two standard attacks, just like I said. Well, you can't do that. Combo attacks over different turns. Even worse than attacks during the same turn. As I said in my previous post, trying to work out what attack you made on your previous turn and working out what attack you make on your current turn to produce another type of attack isn't the solution. It's convoluted.

So this design is more about combat focus than roleplaying? And balancing the combat aspect of it? And roleplaying has taken a back seat?

"We're talking about using a standard attack in a standard time frame, then using a 2nd standard attack in a 2nd time frame but then having a different result." Having a combo attack over different turns? That sounds even worse, especially for new players. They may be doing something and not realising what they did on their previous turn is having an affect on their attacks on the current turn. eg. I did a stun attack but I never choose stun? How did that happen? I could see a combo sheet of moves being shipped with the game. Do X in one turn, then Y in your next turn to produce Z attack. ugh. No, thanks.

So it's better not to compare different types of defenders? But to also compare defenders to controllers? Can you show me how a rogue can be a defender? I mean that no one but a Rogue inherently takes advantage of afflictions by Sneak Attacking. No one besides a Ranger has anything mimicking an animal companion. I don't care if your Rogue is the most defensive guy in the universe, or your Ranger is Captain Crowd Control. It doesn't matter. They still function differently before you even get to role. Or, to put it another way... The Rogue is a Striker because Sneak Attack (his class's distinctive mechanic) happens to produce increased damage. I'm sure you can blast the enemy with Wizard spells and still accomplish lots of damage, but you wouldn't suddenly say "I'm being a Striker, and therefore I'm playing like a Rogue!" No. The Wizard and the Rogue still differ in raw functionality. The Wizard weaves big active magic effects that get hurled at people, and the Rogue must successfully land regular attacks whilst his foe is under the influence of a number of afflictions. A class is not so much what they do (which should be pretty flexible, hence all these "problems with classes!" threads in response to the current state of the backer beta), as much as it is how they do what they do. I hope that makes sense. Please, if you have further questions on that, or I haven't made myself clear enough about what I think the Fighter lacks, ask away. You're confusing what a role is. The rogue is playing a role by doing sneak attack and doing a lot of damage. The rogue is playing the role of the heavy hitter of the party. The rogue's role is intertwined into the class. You can't say the rogue is a rogue before it gets to its role. That doesn't make sense. When you create a rogue, before you even start the game the role is a heavy hitter. It's the same with the Fighter who is playing a defender role being the tank of the party. Okay, what does smack do? Does it do damage? You haven't said what it does. Also your example with smack (don't know what it does) and thwack (damage + knock back). So you want a knockback that does damage? If smack does damage, then you want two lots of damage with a knock back? If this is the case, then you're combining two attacks that do damage which you can't do. So I was right. You do want to combine two standard attacks. eg. Street Fighter. Also, there is a knockdown in the game that does damage. Combining different attacks that do damage isn't the solution. It makes it into an arcade game with street fighter type moves.

As you said, it would be better to compare a defender to a defender, which is why we should do it and not compare a defender to a controller. Also, I don't understand what you mean by every other class feels like it has its own unique function regardless of the role they play. A Rogue feels like a striker to me. It doesn't feel like a defender, controller or leader. In fact, I have no idea how you would play a Rogue as a controller or leader and trying to play it as a defender would get it killed. And you still haven't explained how this 'combo' actually works. And as I've explained to you and Silent Winter, this doesn't happen in 4th ed where you can combine two standard actions together to make a new combo action. The more I think about it, the more it is Double Dragon / Street Fighter. And arcade fighting games like Street Fighter did introduce them into video games. So please give some examples how this would be implemented into PoE and what the fighter would be doing, instead of saying combos could be the answer.

If you're comparing the Fighter to other classes, it would be better to compare them to classes in the same role - defenders. Comparing a fighter to a Wizard (Controller) or Ranger (Striker) and saying other classes feel functionally different than the fighter isn't really a good argument, because they are functionally different due to their different roles. And when you compare the fighter to the other classes in the same role as defender, they are different to the other defenders. Also, as I said, there's needs to be a good reason why and how a fighter is getting a combo of attacks. Why is the fighter getting more than one standard attack and how will it be implemented. At the moment, it sounds very much like an arcade fighting game like Street Fighter.

Considering the Rogue is one of the heavy hitters, I'd be replacing it with another heavy hitter like the Cipher or Ranger. Both are pretty good imo.

I do find it breaks immersion for me and it'd be good if ranged projectiles could have an arc.

Yep, all good points and combat is a clusterfark at the moment. For me, the major contributing problem is the lack of rounds which contributes to pause spamming with the different recovery times for your characters. It was easier with the IE games because they had rounds. Also, the enemies didn't sprint across the screen and in your face in 1/2 a second. And it looks like Obsidian won't be changing to rounds in the foreseeable future which I think is a mistake. At any rate, that time is well and truly passed. It was a design decision made early on before the Kickstarter finished. I would've thought if they were testing the combat, even a year ago when we saw the teaser trailer, they would've noticed there were problems with it. A decision should've been made to introduce rounds like the IE games when they knew they had a problem. Not persist in trying to 'fix' it because in my opinion, I don't think it can be fixed to a degree where it will be like the IE games. They might be able to slow it down, but the lack of rounds is the problem for me. The combat feels like I'm playing an arpg like Diablo, trying to control 6 characters at once, constantly pausing to issue commands and not 100% sure when they have fully recovered to issue a new command.

I don't really follow. So you're suggesting a feat would grant two different standard actions instead of one at the same time? If that's the case, that's way OP and it is like Street Fighter. Even 4E doesn't do that. The closest would be doing a minor and standard in the same turn. If you're trying to get two actions going during the fighters turn, you might be able to introduce Minor actions. eg. A minor action power could give you a small bonus to your defences by taking a defensive stance while your standard attack may knock an enemy prone. But then minor actions should be given to all classes and not just the Fighter. One problem I see in trying to introduce minor actions is the combat is a total mess at the moment, including the recovery time and when you could use your minor action. Something like this would be better for turn based games where you could select different powers during a turn with Action Points.

this is a better idea - fighter combo-attacks. Fighter could learn more combos as the game goes on (ideally by training with experts but if not, then abstracted at level-up with talents). Fighter combo attacks? Can you give some specific examples? When I think of Fighter combo attacks, all I can think of is Street Fighter.

No, you can uninstall it and install it as many times as you like. It stays in your Steam library.

It does prove it. You're cherry picking. The whole quote is about regenerating health and spell cooldowns. Rest spamming and save scumming. Some more quotes: Bold emphasis. Replenishing Stamina was part of the whole mitigating rest spamming.

Now that's what I call a wall of text. Nearly two and a half thousand words. You're obviously not happy. Maybe take a break from this? I've only played World of Tanks and found it quite fun and frustrating at times. Mostly due to no team work and being thrown into a game with 14 other randoms. It's like trying to herd cats. Sometimes it works and everyone just knows what they're doing, most times it's chaotic. I'm glad I moved on from it.

Rest supplies helps with resting. It's my understanding from Sawyers comment that the regenerating stamina and health mechanic was to reduce rest spamming because your stamina regenerated after each battle (which it didn't in the IE games) and you had a health reserve to keep you going and continue your adventures. In theory, you would still adventure and keep going and wouldn't need to rest. But as we've seen in the beta, this isn't working as intended as after a couple of battles, you may need to rest - especially if you're new to the game. And as others have said, it needs tweaksTM to solve it. TBH, the whole stamina/health mechanic is a flawed design, another theoretical paper design that doesn't work in practice imo. And we've seen many theoretical paper designs over the last two years. But as I said, this topic is probably best in the healing thread.

No. It was to mitigate degenerative gameplay like rest spamming and save scumming. By taking health healing out of the game, it would make players play strategically by not rest spamming with a regenerating stamina mechanic. With regenerating stamina, this would mitigate rest spamming.