BruceVC

This is an important review, I would say this is probably the first of the much anticipated RPG that have been funded through a KS campaign. And it received a good score, I am happy as it bodes well for the broader concern around "will we get entertaining RPG through KS or is it all just smoke and mirrors without the backing of publishers

Good post "it's the internet, not much you can do about it" I reject this stance completely. This is just an excuse for people to not to try to maintain a level of decorum or to deal with certain systemic problems around basic Internet communication. I think how you address the issue of rudeness and bigotry starts with you and how you deal with it personally. If you construct your posts as if you are talking face to face to the person and condemn other peoples post that demonstrate rudeness you are assisting to address this scourge. One of the problems is that most people are non-confrontational, so for example you could be reading someone's comments who is making a joke about rape. Rape is not funny, a heinous crime and is a form of sexism. Most people wouldn't approve of it but they won't say anything to the person who made the crude comments. We need to learn to make comments like "I don't find what you said funny at all" or a similar response. I made a conscious decision several months ago after reading that RPS article about Sexism on the Internet that from that day on I would confront anyone who makes a comment that smacks of bigotry. It may create acrimony but I would rather make the right moral decision than to keep quiet. The good news is I have found these forums have very few instances of obvious bigotry, another factor why I enjoy them Finally another reason for general rudeness on the Internet and this is something that no one has touched on is the Americans indubitable belief in free speech. I have had several debates with people about there insulting comments and there response are generally things like " its just words", "words can't hurt you" and "I believe in free speech and this just my opinion". We know that in South Africa words most definitely can hurt you and certain words are illegal. We believe in free speech but not if it infringes on the dignity of the person. That's what's key to this argument, are your words going to impact the dignity of the person? So people hide behind the tenet of free speech and perpetuate rudeness and bigotry. If you can change this mindset you'll go a long way to resolving the issue

It sux but the batteries in my Xbox controller are dead so I can't play Darksiders tonight So I won't be gaming at all but I have had some good laughs because of peoples comments on other threads so I've enjoyed the night immensely

Its a good thing you did, I would have just besmirched that lofty title with some hooker scandal. Good news, I have to award you the famous BruceVC " Funniest post of the week " award

I definitely would NOT agree with this. There's no such thing as a type of content that can only, unequivocally make something better. Unless we're classifying it in a nebulous way such as "good" content. At which point it's a tautology. (Adding good content makes something good). It's entirely possible for romance content to be added in a way that ultimately takes away from the game. Further, it's nearly impossible to truly ascertain that adding romance content is the best thing to do with that time, in order to make the best game possible. I was just joking Alan with that comment as this whole discussion is about if Romance should be included. We don't agree at all

Nice try, BruceVC, but I think if we were all in agreement this thread wouldn't be seventeen pages long, and wouldn't be the most recent of seventeen threads either. What you present there is almost the textbook definition of anecdotal evidence. As any behavioral economist will tell you, people are more easily swayed by a few colorful examples than by the weight of data. So, though it is--as you have clearly recognized--a good tool for scoring points in arguments, anecdotal evidence doesn't actually prove anything. Here in this thread I can find a number of examples of people who believe the antithesis of what you do, as strongly as you do. Would you then concede that romance doesn't help with sales, just because I can find anecdotal counterexamples? You make some good points I have to concede that you are right and the implementation of Romance is not what everyone wants. I thought I could slip that one in without you noticing But now back to the facts, let me give you a different example to reinforce my point. We know that ME and DA each sold several million copies and that is considered excellent sales figures. We also know that each game had comprehensive implementations of Romance. These are facts right? Now if you go to BSN you will find hundreds of posts from people who love and cherish Bioware games and the way they implement Romance. Without doing detailed research I can't say that all those millions of people bought Bioware games for Romance but I can say without a doubt that the integration of Romance hasn't effected there sales figures. And if they did they were negligible as we know the excellent sales numbers So why leave out something like Romance when it can potentially make certain groups purchase the game and by including it you won't be effecting the sales as we can see from the Bioware model? Why not just include it

But now you are contradicting yourself as you said....wait... hold on... you are agreeing with me. I didn't expect that I am sorry my friend but I have to remove you from the list of possible candidates for the much desired and respected " BruceVC Liberal, Philanthropist and Altruism Award for 2013 "

But I think we are all in agreement that Romance can only help a game become even better? Also I visit BSN and have read several times that people buy certain games because of the Romance option, surly that is data that adds to my view that Romance helps with sales? Isn't my view rational based on what I have heard and read?

Nope. But at one time I was headed to be a maths instructor. And its not really cleverness either (particularly the first time I get the maths wrong - been over a decade since I've looked at most of this stuff). Okay but your understanding of math is still impressive, well for me it is

Do I need to be stoned to work out the answer? Rope around the circle : Circumference of Earth (CoE) = 2πR where R is the distance from the surface to the center of earth. What he's asking is, essentially how much more rope would be needed to circle the earth if the circle was built from the center of earth ® + 1 meter. So what added to the CoE would equal 2π times the Radius +1 meter? In essence X+CoE = 2π(R + 1meter) X+ 2πR = 2πR + 2π meters X = 2π meters = ~6.28 meters I know you are clever and I was hoping you would respond Amentep what do you do for a living? Aren't you a lecturer of some sort?

Gfted1 you naughty, naughty boy. That's a terrible thing to say !!! I am going to send you to your room without desert !!!! You can't say you are someone who strives to address the social and economic imbalances of the world with an attitude like that ?

Fair point, but what's better for a country and for the less fortunate. A family that pays there taxes but keeps 70 % of there wealth or a family that gives away 80-90 % of there monthly income and is instrumental in generating hundred of millions of dollars in tourism? Surly the latter

Guys I don't want to sound like I'm overdoing my support for Raithe's comments but how can you disagree with the type of logic and points that he makes. Its irrefutable. I would be shocked if anyone can't see the advantages after reading his posts of the British Monarchy?

You are master of theatrics and also very funny I've got the same reaction when Zevran from Dragon Age tried to saduce me ...beurkkkkkk beurkkkkk I've enjoyed your posts up to now but please refrain from blatant homophobia as I'll end up not liking you at all. Heh.. it's not homophobia, but the dialog of zevran was simply so horrible wen he was trying to do so i almost jump out of window. i whoud understand a dialog like "do you like men ?" insted "i like men i you make me horny" sorry it's to much for me .... Beside jekeing about romances in general is good, but jokeing about badly writhen homo-relationship is horrible ? Okay I misunderstood you, I apologize And I agree, they generally stereotype Gay people as wanting to sleep with every person that they lay there eyes on

I could be misunderstanding you but I question your adulation and respect for the British Monarchy?

Sometimes you make posts that I really don't understand but you make me laugh , to answer your question yes the wealth of UK was probably used to build Buckingham Palace 300 years ago. But I don't think it would be fair to hold that against the current Monarchy?

Your comment is not wacky at all but actually very applicable

You are master of theatrics and also very funny I've got the same reaction when Zevran from Dragon Age tried to saduce me ...beurkkkkkk beurkkkkk I've enjoyed your posts up to now but please refrain from blatant homophobia as I'll end up not liking you at all.

Did you read how much money the British monarchy generate for the UK?

So the little tykes name is George Alexander Louis Cool name

It's already well-known that it takes at least 2-3 months for Chris to write a character at his speediest, so the obvious answer to "why can't we have both" is TIME. It's either spend more money to hire more writers, whose output will be of questionable quality/style compared to Avellone by himself and would require additional editing time anyway, or add more time to the development timeline. Because otherwise with the way PE Is development at this point, requiring "deep" romances ("done right") in the game would, IMO, require at least 1-2 characters out of 8 to be completely devoted to only that content type, and that never seems to go well because either a chunk of people are always left out from the RP aspect or the 1-2 romance characters become so "universal" that they're meaningless. Moreover, saying the addition of romances is great for economic reasons is a weak argument. Basically, that "reason" is merely a cover for personal preference. The FPS games that don't have romances do just fine in the economic department; can you really say "add romances to FPS games because it'll obviously increase your bottom line!" with a straight face? Or would you say people played the Infinity Engine games primarily for their romances? It's about the target audience that Obsidian wants to attract and how that affects game development on their timetable: Creating content here and adding a mechanic system there can and will take resources from other places or even impinge development proper. As always, my preference: Leave game romance to the modders. Now, if Avellone did end up leaving traces here and there with no resolution, fine. But I'd much rather have a bunch of Dak'kon -like content because that's rare already in both games and mass media. BruceVC: You missed all the previous thread discussions pointing out that "romance" is actually not a deeper and intrinsically better type of character content compared to other deep and complex relationships, be it family or the bromance/womance that's fallen out of favor in Western mass media since homophobia became much more salient. You clearly are a reasonable and intelligent person and I appreciate your input. A couple of comments from my side You are correct that most FPS don't offer Romance, but we aren't talking about FPS. We are discussing an RPG and people enjoy RPG for a number of reasons that include the narrative, the choices you can make and the party that joins you on your quest. In fact the members of the party that can join are a huge part of an RPG experience IMO. For me the members of my party must not just be unemotional robots that I can't empathize with or interact with, I want to understand what motivates them and there history. I'm sure you can agree with most of what I'm saying up to now Now for me and many others they also want the option to Romance certain members of the party as I firmly believe that a physical relationship does make you closer to person. So even though having optional Romance options won't be more than a few lines of dialogue and maybe a small quest here or there it definitely adds to the deeper connection I feel I have with a party member. The result of this is that I consider there opinion during the game in the context of the overall quest and I ensure they are generally in my party and well equipped . Of course they need to add value in combat but that's normally not a issue. So Romance for me does enhance my RPG experience and provide immersion as I often reflect on my game and choices I have made and that includes who I can Romance. If I could only talk to the person without the Romance arc something would be missing for me from the overall RPG experience.

Do I need to be stoned to work out the answer?

Yeah that's what people say who live in countries that don't have Royal families, its easier to claim indifference than to face the reality that you don't have much of a historical legacy

You are master of theatrics and also very funny

Nope its not new, I've been making this point for ages. But its not as simple as that, I would rather say you will increase the fan base as Romances are popular and Romance do draw certain loyal groups of people who love discussing and supporting them. And by increasing the fan base you would assume that these people would buy PE and that will generate more revenue. Keep in mind this isn't necessarily a good thing; Mass Effect, for example had a massive romance fanbase and things got so rabid that they ended up having to close their romance forums. Bioware also made a DLC that essentially pandered to said audience. You do attract more people, sure, but many of these people are the same kinds of people who obsess over fanfiction and care more about romancing than the actual core mechanics of the game. I hear you, but I still think that the majority of people who want Romance are reasonable and rationale and just enjoy the deeper interaction with party members that Romance provides. So I feel the good outweighs the bad but obviously I would never want the discussion around Romance to get so heated a whole forum gets closed @ The rest of you making jokes about my comments around Romance increasing revenue. Some really hilarious comments, especially the monkey riding the sheep But jokes aside I stand by what I say for the reasons I gave