BruceVC

So, with this kind of tone, do you really believe that you're going to achieve anything? Because quite honestly, I think you'll achieve exactly the opposite. By generalizing and finger pointing, you turn off rational people who might otherwise actually listen to what you have to say. Just a word of advice. No you won't get through to someone like Bester by being nice. Either he thinks its funny to troll and be utterly dismissive of serious issues of social justice or he is being serious. Either way I don't care what he thinks. And SusurrusParadox is right, its exactly attitudes like Besters that lady gamers want there own space and frankly can you blame them He was talking to Nonek, he wasn't talking to Bester. What I object to is the implication that every single man is responsible for all the misdeeds done by some men who are jerks. By the way, these same jerks who annoy women in games are probably jerks to pretty much everyone. While I don't object to separate spaces for women who want them, I think the real problem is taking care of this jerkish behaviour in general. For me the problem is lack of moderation and lack of punishment of jerkish behavior. So rather than targeting all men just because of the fact that some men are jerks why not try to get game makers to enforce moderation to get rid of jerkish behaviour. To be honest no one has ever said all men are sexist jerks, this is what people like Volo say as a deflection mechanism instead of having to acknowledge there is a problem that needs to be discussed and addressed. Its a Strawman argument. Most men treat women very well and respect them but we do have a real problem with sexism and misogyny from some quarters "You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space." I agree, but it should be clear that certain people refuse to change there behavior

You don't need a club of your own.Yo You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space. No I don't need a club of my own and neither do women, artificial seperation achieves nothing but one group having preferential treatment because of their gender, it feeds and adds to the problem it is trying to tackle. As for changing my behaviour, I am nothing but polite and civil to any and everybody, and always have been. Changing others behaviour, that is most certainly not my responsibility but their own, and the site they are upon if in a virtual construct such as this. Yes Nonek because at the moment your constant suggestion to keep the status quo as is seems to be really achieving the desired result where there are numerous and constant examples of the harrasment and verbal abuse of female gamers. You know the definition of madness Nonek "is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" Whom exactly is arguing for the status quo Bruce? I am arguing for the change and the two genders and the forums facing their problem, rather than hiding themselves away in gender discriminatory forums. This does nothing but exacerbates the problem and allows the abusers free reign within the general space, which seems to be the status quo. This is simple logic. I am most certainly not the individual attempting a Sisyphean task out of pure vanity Bruce, and expecting different results each time. I rather object to being called an abusive backwards caveman, and hardly think I have done or said anything to warrant this title, so please refrain from the abuse Mr Paradox. A solid argument needs neither inuslts nor outrage. Nonek, I really enjoy your posts and respect your opinion so I hope you don't take these debates personally. But can we please move on from the "abusive backwards cavemen" comments. As you have told me numerous times its just words and people must have thick skins on the Internet. By focusing on that and suddenly being offended I find it totally out of character for you and completley hypercritical to what you have explained to me in the past about insults on places like RPGCodex and how people need to deal with comments Lets focus on the topic and not what someone called you. Now you are suggesting that a separate space for lady gamers wouldn't work or be the best way to address abuse of female gamers. But we also know in the Star Citizen example the Mods and all current measures don't do enough as there a clear objective from the lady gamers to have there own area., How can you think that increased Mod influence would solve this? That is the status quo just trying to enhance it. Of course there will be some lady gamers who don't care and will join male dominated guilds and groups. But end of the day the problem of abuse towards women in certain games needs a paradigm shift and even though I agree in some respects it seems like admitting failure if groups of lady gamers want there own groups this should be accepted due to the circumstances ?

So, with this kind of tone, do you really believe that you're going to achieve anything? Because quite honestly, I think you'll achieve exactly the opposite. By generalizing and finger pointing, you turn off rational people who might otherwise actually listen to what you have to say. Just a word of advice. No you won't get through to someone like Bester by being nice. Either he thinks its funny to troll and be utterly dismissive of serious issues of social justice or he is being serious. Either way I don't care what he thinks. And SusurrusParadox is right, its exactly attitudes like Besters that lady gamers want there own space and frankly can you blame them He was talking to Nonek, he wasn't talking to Bester. What I object to is the implication that every single man is responsible for all the misdeeds done by some men who are jerks. By the way, these same jerks who annoy women in games are probably jerks to pretty much everyone. While I don't object to separate spaces for women who want them, I think the real problem is taking care of this jerkish behaviour in general. For me the problem is lack of moderation and lack of punishment of jerkish behavior. So rather than targeting all men just because of the fact that some men are jerks why not try to get game makers to enforce moderation to get rid of jerkish behaviour. To be honest no one has ever said all men are sexist jerks, this is what people like Volo say as a deflection mechanism instead of having to acknowledge there is a problem that needs to be discussed and addressed. Its a Strawman argument. Most men treat women very well and respect them but we do have a real problem with sexism and misogyny from some quarters

Welcome to patriarchy. But if you consider yourself an ally, it is kind of your job to educate the abusive backwards cavemen, because they will probably listen to the same arguments even less if they come out of the mouths of [insert marginalized group]. Word of friendly advice, though: most people here are fairly educated and intelligent (while unquestionably holding some pretty iffy opinions). Insulting them will get you nowhere, rational arguments might. (Probably won't, but you're dealing with massive amounts of cognitive dissonance, expecting things to change overnight is fairly unrealistic.) As usual you make some good points but I think everyone can handle some direct debate and opinions

I was waiting for someone to suggest that, no he is not my alt. I have only one alt, BruceVC

I especially like how their first posts ever on the forum are to attack everyone that doesn't agree. Classy. Or maybe he actually took acception at a highly contriversial opinion that for many just seems normal but in fact is not.

And yet the solution you advocate is to have women artificially seperated from men and granted a superior status, if you want women to be accepted hiding them away and treating them differently is not the correct method, a five year old could reason that out Bruce. It will do nothing except exacerbate the problem. No Nonek, I am not suggesting that now we automatically separate every female gamer from all men and they don't interact. I am saying if female gamers want there own space let them have it. But this should be optional. Then men should have their own space also, this is simple equality Bruce, if they have paid an equal amount of money then they should be treated exactly the same in all matters. To do otherwise is inequality, something that should never be tolerated. It's not the same thing at all. There is a huge bloody difference between creating safe spaces for people that receive rape & death threats as well as heaps of general abuse... and making a special club for bigots. (Although, if you want a 'permabanned forever' club for that group then by all means I support that.) That's the thing about equality. Giving a short (disadvantaged) person a box (assistance) so they can reach something (objective) is not the same as giving a tall (privileged) person a box too. They don't need the box. They never needed the box. The existing circumstances are already biased in their favour. It's not about giving everyone a thing and assuming that's "fair". It's not, because that completely disregards the basic definition of "equal". If you don't want segregation, maybe you should be tackling the individuals posting bigoted commentary or insulting women or insulting anyone that even remotely supports making this environment (and others) welcoming and inclusive and safe and friendly and, dare I say it, fun. Isn't that the point? As it is, it looks like abusive backwards cavemen dominate the discourse here. Not exactly an appealing environment for anyone, much less women. I don't know who you are SusurrusParadox but I am really enjoying your perspective and insight in this topic

You don't need a club of your own.Yo You need to change your behaviour, and that of fellow men, so that people don't feel the need to have a separate safe space. No I don't need a club of my own and neither do women, artificial seperation achieves nothing but one group having preferential treatment because of their gender, it feeds and adds to the problem it is trying to tackle. As for changing my behaviour, I am nothing but polite and civil to any and everybody, and always have been. Changing others behaviour, that is most certainly not my responsibility but their own, and the site they are upon if in a virtual construct such as this. Yes Nonek because at the moment your constant suggestion to keep the status quo as is seems to be really achieving the desired result where there are numerous and constant examples of the harrasment and verbal abuse of female gamers. You know the definition of madness Nonek "is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

Spec Ops : The Line is $8 on Steam at the moment. I'm going to buy it

Funny enough, IMO, thats one of the biggest issues with the lack of empathy from certain sectors in society and many people on these forums. They don't care about issues of social justice because they are white heterosexual males and have never been victims of bigotry and discrimination so they don't bother to try to understand it.

So, with this kind of tone, do you really believe that you're going to achieve anything? Because quite honestly, I think you'll achieve exactly the opposite. By generalizing and finger pointing, you turn off rational people who might otherwise actually listen to what you have to say. Just a word of advice. No you won't get through to someone like Bester by being nice. Either he thinks its funny to troll and be utterly dismissive of serious issues of social justice or he is being serious. Either way I don't care what he thinks. And SusurrusParadox is right, its exactly attitudes like Besters that lady gamers want there own space and frankly can you blame them

How are you finding the derogatory references to women? And yes I haven't played this game but its not just the Eurogamer review that made a point of pointing this out. Other gaming websites had the exact same criticism so there must be some truth to it

Guys I am happy to tell anyone who wants to know my reasons why there are almost no ladies on these forums. But don't ask unless you want to know because I'm going to be honest

Its pretty awesome video. Our cat we had when I was a kid had kittens and when a doberman in the neighborhood got loose and came around the front fence. It barked at the cat who hissed back, but the doberman was undeterred. Our cat changed tactics by jumping over the fence, landingd on the back of the doberman and starting clawing. She rode the doberman's back through our yard like he was bucking bronco and our cat was a cowgirl. When the doberman got to the edge of our yard, our cat jumped off his back and calmly walked back to where we had her kittens at. The doberman ran back home yelping. So cats aren't afraid to fight for something, that's for sure. That's a good story, I like it

Well there are many possible explanations. These include Its not a real UN sponsored helicopter, the Ukrainians have already had several helicopters shot down and they know that this is less likely to happen if the pro-Russian forces see a UN marked helicopter. By attacking any UN associated military resource you would bring immediate condemnation by the UN, this is a conflict where perception is important. The Ukrainian forces could be falsifying the UN markings to avoid having there helicopters destroyed The helicopter could be used purly for logistics The helicopter could be some sort of preventative measure The reality is I find it very hard to believe that the UN would allow one of its helicopters to be used in an attacking capacity because of the sensitivity of this conflict and what the Russian reaction would be. Russia sits on the UN security council and there first comment would be " how was this authorised". This would undermine the entire UNSC and is very unlikely

http://www.i4u.com/2014/05/73982/cat-attacks-dog-save-boy This is really cute, especially if you like your cat stories

You really seem incapable of having a mature debate, on this topic, without getting defensive and resorting to personal attacks that I am troll. You need to work on this Drowsy. You made a serious accusation, I asked you for the actual proof that a UN helicopter is killing pro-Russian Ukrainians. This is not an unreasonable request and is certainly not trolling.

Its an attack helicopter, what do you think they're using it for. It can transport a squad as well, but still. Its not like they removed the weaponry and are using it just to ferry troops around. That means nothing, please provide the links that show the number of Ukrainians who were killed by this helicopter. This is a big development and a UN helicopter that attacked pro-Russian supporters should be all over the news. So it shouldn't be hard to find and verify?

Nonek this is testimony to the relevance of Romance. When I tell you guys this my point is dismissed by most people but when RPGCodex tells you this suddenly you guys listen...aaaaah....sweet vindication

Yeah, and even when complemented or approved he is all like instead of

You and C2B do an excellent job in keeping us informed around various updates and links that most of us wouldn't be aware of if it wasn't for your studious efforts. So good work, its appreciated Now if you can just support me in my endeavors in getting Romance in the sequel to PoE you'll be my BFF

Fair enough, I did say I wasn't going to hijack this thread

Fair enough the "bible belt " in the USA is full of fundamentalists, I agree. But Hurlshot comes from California and they are much more reasonable around there religious views.

Now either the author is really bad at writing or they're an idiot. Okay I'm missing your point? Who is the bad writer, the gaming journalist or the writers of the game? And if its the gaming journalist why is he a bad writer

Indeed, people know not to derail important threads Orog Romance threads can't be derailed because they begin life as derails. You know I've always found most of your humour hilarious