BruceVC

Sorry KP but I had already started on the GG article ...please can we have our debate later?

Literally every single article railing against "white, male gamers" (hint: there was none; on the other hand, there was a grand total of two saying mean things about gamers in general, without the "white, male" qualifier) specified they meant a very specific subset of gamers, whose unpleasant characteristics were unrelated to their race and gender (although, as they pointed out, due to socieconomic realities, white males are severely overrepresented in said group). There was never an "attack on white male gamers", and anybody who claims otherwise is an idiot. What. No you see you still don't understand what I meant by manipulation and this is my fault for not explaining certain details that I can address when you ask. I also had to leave out some details due to the length But by the end of this please be aware that you will see I'm right and you were part of hyperbole and yes you were fooled, so don't get angry at me Also I am going to point out a few things you may have overlooked but were relevant So you are focusing on a specific false allegation, yes you correct there weren't 10 articles. GG also started using exaggerations to justify there crusade But lets go back a bit, read this link again http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_over.php It starts off with the following I often say I’m a video game culture writer, but lately I don’t know exactly what that means. ‘Game culture’ as we know it is kind of embarrassing -- it’s not even culture. It’s buying things, spackling over memes and in-jokes repeatedly, and it’s getting mad on the internet. Now yes, you and I didnt find it offensive but its a direct and personal attack on .....gamers and specifically a lifestyle that is normal for most people on this forum and she is mocking people who happen to enjoy the things she said are idiotic . If you dont think this article was offensive ask anyone on this forum who supported GG what they thought about this? Lets start with this

None of what you just said makes one iota of sense or is rooted in reality. At all. Okay well you are entitled to your opinion, so you think white, gamers really were a problem? Maybe summarize what I said that you dont agree with ? Sorry you also got manipulated but you werent alone

I agree on the point that austerity is a bad solution to Greece debt but OTOH they mishandled their loans more than once so that now they ****ed themselves up. A short term solution would be to engage in Communism where the state provides the populace while paying off the debt, but that would never work because it would impossible to get that many people to share the same goal. Nope, Greece has ****ed itself up and like other European countries I wish them luck in their descent into far right politics and I'll see them in WWIII. The best short-term solution would have been a fiscal policy aimed at economic growth and using the later surplus(es) to pay off the debt when the Greek economy could handle austerity. In it's current form all austerity does is depress the Greek economy and actually prevents them from paying off their debt in a sustainable manner. It's funny how the EU is creating the conditions for another fascist regime(s) despite being created to prevent that. Reality is, that they dug their own grave themselves. now they just have to pay off the debt. Take it as a form of punishment for being "edgy" enough to avoid paying taxes and milking public money. I still remember the funny view when like almost every house had a metal pipe sticking out to prove a point that it is still under construction or some such and they did not pay the full property tax (that was Crete 14 years ago). After all thieves who get caught get to prison and ruin their lives, same goes for Greeks who thought they are too smart for anyone to find out about their lies. And they are now in a situation where they can't pay off the debt. As it is they are in a situation where they will be continually bailed out by the EU while their state owned utilities are bought up by private owners. If you've got an argument on how Greece is going to pay off their debt in a depressed economy, make it instead of repeating the same thing. The social engineering is coming from your neoliberals and their obsession with austerity and worship of the market. It should come as no surprise that the recent austerity and privatization in Greece has resulted in Greek women whoring themselves out to eat and German businesses buying up recently privatized utilities. Because austerity in a depressed economy does that. So have fun you guys in the PIGS, if you're lucky enough to land a low-wage job just think of how your hard work is benefiting some kraut. But I'm sure Merkel is a closet commie and all these private enterprises are just fronts for the coming socialist vanguard. KP I don't mean to criticize you but this view you have of Greece being bullied and somehow being the victim in the whole EU austerity measures concerns me immensely because I don't understand why you can believe that, I know you and I have argued about this in the past and I was hoping someone else would engage with you because I cant seem to convince you why the EU Troika was and is correct to enforce austerity But I would like to debate this again with you if you want to? And the irony is I do want you to have a positive view of the EU which is why I want you to get the right information so I'm not doing this to prove I know more than you Bruce the last time we had this argument you just said austerity is good and we should ignore unemployment or wage stagnation. When pressed you couldn't back this up and repeated yourself without providing any sort of proof or an argument. If you can make a coherent argument I'll be convinced, but judging from your track record on this forum you'll fail to convince me and convince others I'm right. Yes I will be less critical and make less assumptions this time, I just need a break after my long GG post

Way to go, feed their victim complex s'more, Bruce... good job You know you are one of the very few people on this forum who somehow can make me feel guilty about somethings I post I know you and people like Baro also supported anti-GG but for me I truly believed the Anita and Leigh story about women being victimized in the gaming industry and objectified in games .... But the truth is SJ is not about generalizing about whole groups of people....that cannot be right. I still support Zoe Quinn, that was wrong but end of the day I realized what GG was actually about and I realized I had been manipulated You had Anita ,who like me ,came from the real world of SJ issues and for some reason decided to focus on gaming. Now when I say " real world of SJ issues " this is not meant to say we are superior but you learn how to do certain things to effectively raise SJ issues in a meaningful way that most people want to generally support. Businesses and corporations always like to support things like womens rights and to be seen to be on the good side of society So Anita took this ability and really turned it on the gaming industry, with people like Leigh and then the real abuse of Zoe they suddenly created a " crisis " that had disastrous and unexpected consequences. Many people like me immediately sided with them but websites like Polygon fundamentally decided they would champion this cause and ended up not even being able to review a game without ensuring it met " SJ standards" .....I mean WTF. Then you had all those San Francisco developers who signed there loyalty to anti-GG. Now the reality of SJ in RL is gay rights campaigners are generally nice people who will always support other SJ causes like abuse of women. Anita knew this so it would have been easy for her to get people who live in a liberal area like that to assume women really were being abused by all these " legions of white, male gamers " . Now I feel embarrassed that I was conned so quickly but my excuse is I live in a country where due to our past you really can't say " I'm a white male and I feel victimized " and expect anyone to take it seriously. So I just didn't see that outside of South Africa white, males could really feel victims of unfair discrimination...but of course why can't they? So now you had this organised movement with proper support from within and outside the gaming industry who believed this was valid campaign to protect womens rights. It was organised as if it was fighting a RL example of SJ abuse, the media and universities got behind Anita and even Hollywood and CNN were behind them.. And who was this terrible enemy that needed to be subdued ....who was this diabolical monster....drumroll....oh thats right it was white, male gamers !!!! Lets be honest if you take just the people on this forum who supported GG none of them are sexist or think less of women. They are same people they have always been, they not sales people or people who are necessarily extroverted confident public speakers and there is nothing wrong with that. But suddenly they are being told " you either with us or you dont respect women " ....there only real crime is loving playing games but that became a issue for Anita And yes certain members in GG really didn't help and in fact they reacted in exactly the way that would have worked best for Anita. They withdrew into this community that allowed them now to easily be labelled and then GG lashed out in the only way they knew how ...using the Internet. Then it got really " nasty" , you had doxxing, feminists, SJW and people being threatened and then the line was drawn and you had these irreconcilable differences and two sides who both thought they had the moral high ground but in fact had been manipulated into this " fight " When I went back and read the original Leigh letter I suddenly realized you could substitute " white, gamers" with " women, african american, jew, gay person " whatever and that type of generalization would never have been allowed yet it was for " white gamers" That is wrong and I knew I had been fooled ...and what was the outcome? GG could never have won, in fact they had lost right from the beginning because Anita knew how to get support from the real world but the reality is there is now this schism in an industry that didn't really need the actual gamers to fight it out So thats what I meant

The social engineering is coming from your neoliberals and their obsession with austerity and worship of the market. It should come as no surprise that the recent austerity and privatization in Greece has resulted in Greek women whoring themselves out to eat and German businesses buying up recently privatized utilities. Because austerity in a depressed economy does that. So have fun you guys in the PIGS, if you're lucky enough to land a low-wage job just think of how your hard work is benefiting some kraut. But I'm sure Merkel is a closet commie and all these private enterprises are just fronts for the coming socialist vanguard. If greek would not lie about their statistics, and would have less governmental sector and social spending in the first place, there would not be the greek crisis as you see it. There is no other than stupid people believing populist governments to run their countries. if you borrow money at some point you have to pay them back. Thank God there is someone on this thread who is also prepared to support me in helping KP see a different view .....

The social engineering is coming from your neoliberals and their obsession with austerity and worship of the market. It should come as no surprise that the recent austerity and privatization in Greece has resulted in Greek women whoring themselves out to eat and German businesses buying up recently privatized utilities. Because austerity in a depressed economy does that. So have fun you guys in the PIGS, if you're lucky enough to land a low-wage job just think of how your hard work is benefiting some kraut. But I'm sure Merkel is a closet commie and all these private enterprises are just fronts for the coming socialist vanguard. KP I don't mean to criticize you but this view you have of Greece being bullied and somehow being the victim in the whole EU austerity measures concerns me immensely because I don't understand why you can believe that, I know you and I have argued about this in the past and I was hoping someone else would engage with you because I cant seem to convince you why the EU Troika was and is correct to enforce austerity But I would like to debate this again with you if you want to? And the irony is I do want you to have a positive view of the EU which is why I want you to get the right information so I'm not doing this to prove I know more than you

Yes but to be honest thats not what your country decided, it joined the EU and the EU is about multiculturalism So eventually it will come to your country, this is a good thing by the way. Its nothing to be worried about well maybe thats reason why EU is failing and some states want to get out. It was never been supposed to be some social engineering project which it is becoming now. So sad, it could have been really great project many Europeans hoped for No the EU is evolving exactly the way it is suppose to, I know many of you guys feel this is not what you signed up for But funny enough in order for the EU to survive events like these Syrian refugees will occur...and this will actually make you stronger Without going into too much political and economic detail you should try to see its not possible for the worlds most successful and financially strong union of countries, the EU, that is admired by millions of people who would love to immigrate there that you won't face events like the Syrian refugees I know it probably seems like things are out of control but this is just an evolution around the structure of the EU and I can promise you culture will always sustain itself yeah like romans, man please keep your multi world in SA and dont force it on people who dont want it. I have better things to do than debate on radio about things i take as granted because some immigrant dont feel enough as at home I'm not forcing anything on you, I am just explaining the reality of what it means to belong to the EU And once again this is a good thing even if you don't see it like that now

Yes but to be honest thats not what your country decided, it joined the EU and the EU is about multiculturalism So eventually it will come to your country, this is a good thing by the way. Its nothing to be worried about well maybe thats reason why EU is failing and some states want to get out. It was never been supposed to be some social engineering project which it is becoming now. So sad, it could have been really great project many Europeans hoped for No the EU is evolving exactly the way it is suppose to, I know many of you guys feel this is not what you signed up for But funny enough in order for the EU to survive events like these Syrian refugees will occur...and this will actually make you stronger Without going into too much political and economic detail you should try to see its not possible for the worlds most successful and financially strong union of countries, the EU, that is admired by millions of people who would love to immigrate there that you won't face events like the Syrian refugees I know it probably seems like things are out of control but this is just an evolution around the structure of the EU and I can promise you culture will always sustain itself

No offense but to suggest "NK is a soverign state and we need to respect there rules " is one of the most frustrating responses a person can give The NK regime has never had a valid election and they have used there control of the army and ideological brainwashing and brutal killings of any dissidents to stay in power....they are not soverign by any respects I don't expect you to start campaigning outside there embassy or for the West to invade as I know the whole China dynamic but surly you can criticize them on a forum like this ? And its not like you don't get involved in other political debates so I do consider you informed on most global developments - "NK is a sovereign state!" - "Nu-uh, the state has complete control down to a micro-level, that's not sovereign by any means!" Bruce pls, you're drunk. Go back to bed. Actually its 3 pm in the afternoon and I'm stone cold sober And your reason for suggesting " NK is a sovereign state " is still factually incorrect I'm not sure what your definition of sovereign is, this is not a reason to say " we cannot criticize mass murder" ...its completely illogical Still not getting i see: sovereign [sov-rin, sov-er-in, suhv-] Spell Syllables Synonyms Examples Word Origin noun1.a monarch; a king, queen, or other supreme ruler. 2.a person who has supreme power or authority. 3.a group or body of persons or a state having sovereign authority. 4.a gold coin of the United Kingdom, equal to one pound sterling: wentout of circulation after 1914. Check point 1-3. Okay you and I arent on the same page on this whole thing and in order for me to explain to you what you seem to be overlooking I would probably just annoy you..so lets just leave it

Yes but to be honest thats not what your country decided, it joined the EU and the EU is about multiculturalism So eventually it will come to your country, this is a good thing by the way. Its nothing to be worried about

No offense but to suggest "NK is a soverign state and we need to respect there rules " is one of the most frustrating responses a person can give The NK regime has never had a valid election and they have used there control of the army and ideological brainwashing and brutal killings of any dissidents to stay in power....they are not soverign by any respects I don't expect you to start campaigning outside there embassy or for the West to invade as I know the whole China dynamic but surly you can criticize them on a forum like this ? And its not like you don't get involved in other political debates so I do consider you informed on most global developments - "NK is a sovereign state!" - "Nu-uh, the state has complete control down to a micro-level, that's not sovereign by any means!" Bruce pls, you're drunk. Go back to bed. Actually its 3 pm in the afternoon and I'm stone cold sober And your reason for suggesting " NK is a sovereign state " is still factually incorrect I'm not sure what your definition of sovereign is, this is not a reason to say " we cannot criticize mass murder" ...its completely illogical

No you maybe got it wrong. People here still care about woman rights for example. But there is large number of people from same culture that have very similar opinions so there is not so much pressure from all minorities. Basically if you live by rules of local community you will not run into problems. Thats why many people here dont like multiculturalism. They just dont need to be in constant stress of doing something which may someone from different culture find offensive. But I personally think its completely ok. Do you know what will happen when multiculturalism win? There will left only one culture and all these colors of the world will be gone. Sure, yes I get that. Your country needs to change and become multicultural on its own time...I am not going to start telling you what you should do I have enough to deal with on the African continent with countries that have real issues like there citizens who have lived and died for in abject poverty for decades because of corrupt African leaders Czech doesn't need my type of advice, you guys are fine Well, of course it has an issue with the actual acts! But would they draw manga/porn on the subject? Oh yeah. Now, you could argue that just looking at those images is not very healthy, but since their crime rates are relatively low... well, can we as South Africans really criticize how they run their country? And on the other hand, they have their own problems. Suicides, bullying, hikikomori, chikan etc. Of course, I'm well aware of the appalling crime levels in South Africa but that doesn't stop me noticing other parts of the world And in Japan the whole issue of pedophiles is obviously not a such a big social problem as other parts of the world so these child images aren't scrutinized as much

Would be if they were in our pocket. You yourself have supported corrupt dictatorships on the basis they're "our guy". Personally I think the West could alleviate the conditions of the North Korean people if they just opened diplomatic relations and trade. Catch more flies with honey and all that. Yes Baro you right, during the Cold War the West had certain alliances and turned a blind eye to certain activities because these leaders or countries were opposed to Communism. In my own country the unnatural and abhorrent system of Apartheid was able to sustain itself for decades because the Apartheid government was opposed to Communism. And as much as I hate to admit it the greater threat was Communism ....but yes I am aware of the perceived inconsistency But lets drop the whole " The West did this 30 years ago " and look at NK in the here and now. Surly you cannot support what the NK regime is doing? This is not about the West but its about basic human rights And the West has had a long history of negotiating with NK No offense but to suggest "NK is a soverign state and we need to respect there rules " is one of the most frustrating responses a person can give The NK regime has never had a valid election and they have used there control of the army and ideological brainwashing and brutal killings of any dissidents to stay in power....they are not soverign by any respects I don't expect you to start campaigning outside there embassy or for the West to invade as I know the whole China dynamic but surly you can criticize them on a forum like this ? And its not like you don't get involved in other political debates so I do consider you informed on most global developments

How come you know so much about Japan? Did you live there

I think you probably have the wrong idea about SJW pressure and I don't think its your fault because you probably think people who push SJ issues on the Internet are annoying. Like that game you guys are making and how there were no black characters and how suddenly everyone seemed to getting involved and " criticizing" your developers \ That was wrong what we did, people like me sometimes forget that we can't expect every single country to automatically accept the same levels of inclusion that exist in Western countries...so sometimes when people find out a country like Czech is developing its own type of game we assume its okay for us to now start telling you what should be in the game but that is actually rude and offensive. Your developers have every right to make a game that is historically accurate or inaccurate as they want. My only advice is you need to get people who understand Western SJ movements to be a spokesmen because those developers tried to explain but they weren't very convincing and sometimes just made things worse But anyway I don't get involved in SJ movements on the Internet anymore, they are waste of time IMO as most of the time its about various "SJ" groups criticizing gamers and suddenly expecting gamers to support changes to games that they don't even design...so why attack the gamers, who also happen to be mostly white, males. So to me it just seemed like a underhanded way to attack white people for no reason. So now I only focus on SJ in RL One Japanese person told me that since there aren't any minorities to hate on, they hate on rich people instead;) I'm not sure if that's true or not. Well... my understanding of the "underaged girls" issue is... Basically, in Japan (and in Asian cultures in general I think), they tend to want more "youthful" characteristics in their women. In the west, teenage girls might put on makeup to look more like adults. Conversely, in Japan, women put on makeup in a way that makes them look younger. After WW2, they adapted American laws about the age of consent etc., but I think its still kind of at odds with their cultural psych. So the law is the law, but people look for loop-holes. Like the extreme pornography for one. And unless someone REALLY crosses the line, it's all kind of winked at. Very interesting again I assume Japan doesn't have an issue with child rape and children being raped and murdered. As you probably know that is another aspect of crime we deal with in South Africa so obviously those types of images would be considered inappropriate if designed by South Africans And no one is suggesting that normal people who play those games are weird or should feel weird but in a country where crimes against children are a reality you generally wouldn't find society making images like that

Do you ever use material from these forums when you're debating on radio shows? Well... like I said, they're a very homogeneous society. This means that they don't meet too many people from other countries, and so they tend to believe very blatant stereotypes. Like when I say I'm a South African, 90% of the time, the response is "Oh, you're the first SA guy I've ever met. I thought all South Africans were black." Now, in the west, because we're sensitive to racial topics, that would be kinda rude, yeah? But they're just honestly stating what they think. Likewise, very few people here are openly gay. Most Japanese will say with a straight face: "I've never met a gay person. I don't think there are gay people in Japan" (hint: there are gay people in Japan) And finally, yes, their attitudes towards women are also very conservative. So all-in-all, no one cares about social justice here. Not in a mean way, just... they don't think about it. And there aren't any minorities to remind them. It's also very Japanese to "not rock the boat". Better to just go with the flow. "しょうがない" means "It can't be helped / there's nothing that can be done". Sort in a "It's out of our control so don't worry about it" sense. They DO tend to write off a lot of things this way;) Thanks for responding, I am finding this very interesting. As you can imagine I find it incongruous to think of a country that isn't a dictatorship where minority groups don't want more rights...this is just basic human nature Also why do all the women in there games look like children? I know this sounds like I'm criticizing but surly someone must be aware of how possibly questionable this appears. Its like they objectify every women so that they have huge breasts or other outlandish features. And I'm not a prude, I watch porn and go to strip clubs but that is with women..not children. But I suppose as you already explained these types of SJ pressures aren't that common there?

If you don't mind me asking how did you learn those languages....are you from there ? I admire people who can speak other languages

Dude please speak English if you have something to add, I obviously don't speak Japanese

No, people like me are more than capable of telling the truth about brutal dictatorships that have NO right to rule a country even though we have major social problems in South Africa our black government does care about its citizens. We would never allow thousands of people just to starve to death I have to say I'm more concerned why more people on this forum are not unequivocally condemning NK ?

You can't be seriously comparing the years of mass murder committed by the reprehensible and narcissistic NK regime against there own people to the social issues the EU is experiencing due to Syrian refugees ?

I can understand that perspective Its become normal for us White liberals but I'm also probably explaining it in a way that makes it sound arduous because its not all bad if you don't everything seriously But yes if you partake in talk shows like me you have to accept that basically everyday you will be blamed for something that was caused by Apartheid. But then the positive side is when more and more black South Africans become part of the economic transformation or you are able to explain something that helps them in some way You partake in talk shows? You must have an interesting job;) Well, it's just like you said: one foolish person makes a twitter comment, and once again everyone drags up the last 50 years of history. It's kind of like fighting with one's girlfriend. You start arguing about something totally random, and then suddenly all the old baggage is brought up... One thing I like about Japan is that they're such a homogeneous society (98% Japanese) that they barely even understand the concept of "political correctness" as we know it in the west. Of course, that frustrates some people. But for me, having been raised in South Africa, it's like breathe of fresh air. Yes I'm very active on 2 -3 primary radio talk shows. When I say " active " I mean I phone in during the evening pending work commitments and get involved in debates. I work in software and often I work from home so I can connect and listen to the radio and work Radio talk shows are very popular as a medium to discuss issues about the new South Africa and I find its the best way to try to make a point because there is loads of misunderstandings about things like how to drive our economy My brother does some Japanese martial art and he travels to Japan once a year, he even speaks Japanese. I have huge respect for the Japanese and how they rebuilt there entire culture after ww2 But I have also heard they don't seem to understand or care about things like SJ, what is it like there? Do they care about womens rights, gay rights? And why do you think they don't care....I'm not trying to judge them I'm just interested ?

The entire NK regime is a disgrace and would never be tolerated if it had a Western neighbor. But once again because China is ultimately responsible for NK they don't care if hundreds of thousands of Koreans have died of starvation as long as they maintain a facada of a government its good enough for them You guys cannot tell me that the current NK government has a legitimate right to rule the country and if you could change the regime you would. This is what I mean by legitimate regime change

I can understand that perspective Its become normal for us White liberals but I'm also probably explaining it in a way that makes it sound arduous because its not all bad if you don't everything seriously But yes if you partake in talk shows like me you have to accept that basically everyday you will be blamed for something that was caused by Apartheid. But then the positive side is when more and more black South Africans become part of the economic transformation or you are able to explain something that helps them in some way

No there is a huge difference between black Africans and Arabs I completely understand what motivates black people and what there grievances are, its reasonable and its something as a white person I believe I have a commitment to help resolve in South Africa But I'll be honest I'm tired of dealing with religious intransigence that is inconsistent with how the Muslim community should be helping there own Other liberals can deal with that