BruceVC

You peaked my interest. Please elaborate on why his rhetoric is correct? Basically the core idea is that by being part of the culture, it is impossible to also be an impartial outside observer to it, thus it's futile to pretend that you can be "neutral". Your concept of neutrality itself has been influenced by your culture. It feels pretty self-evident and not at all controversial to me. Also, what he said about Yudkowsky's following more or less holds water. Thank you. Why do i get a vibe of Zizek and Lacan all of the sudden...i wonder. I assume because you've been eating from the trashcan of ideology. Alu is that how you interpret what he is saying, for me he is clearly saying to be effective as a SJW you need to be hardcore .....he talks about being irrational Who is Yudkowsky....another SJW?

Haha. Well, good luck with that. I'm going to start with the websites like Polygon...Chu is more of distraction I dont want this to be personal but I really need to say a few things

Sure, I get what you saying and But my point being that wouldn't apply to most people so for me its not something that would provide meaning or comfort if I tried to use it South Africa. So at the moment if I had to ask your average impoverished black South African " how can you believe in God ...do you have proof. Your life doesn't seem that great...how can you be religious " ( this is just an example I would never ever say this") They would look at me and because what I am asking seems so severe...so desolate...I mean they have literally suffered there whole lives and now I'm saying " and guess what ....there also isn't a heaven " that would a very depressing reality so all they would say " there is a God ...there must be "...I actually heard something similar on this talk show where the commentator really said " why are Africans always suffering ....have we been cursed by God....we seem to have nothing yet we are religious " I am looking for something outside what I believe, I dont have thel right answer but I have a good opinion

Oh, that is just precious Weirdly, he is right in many places, but where he goes wrong is the idea that being a "social justice stormtrooper" is an inherently worthy pursuit. I don't find it funny at all, its this type of rhetoric that undermines real SJ change and effort Well the point is, his rhetoric is more or less correct. Just terribly, terribly impractical to actually use as a guideline of real life behavior. Alu I'm going to send a letter to Polygon about my view about this thing is actually misplaced..I know you and Baro have always supported anti-GG so I'll post it tomorrow or the next day on these forums and I'll go into detail. I want you guys to read it so you don't think I am suddenly flip flopping....I'm not GG or AGG I know we all support SJ for possibly different reasons but I want to share with you guys what I have realized

I appreciate your honesty and the fact you shared this personal experience But I would like to have this discussion with you in a different way. I have to signal Nonek out but its not personal its just you using his words to make a point and I don't get it, Nonek did say " We are slabs of meat, but we also have self knowledge, perception of our surroundings, the ability to aspire and create beauty and goodness" ...that may sound relevant but what does it really mean ....its a platitude and they always sound good because what he said doesn't and will never apply to many people and thats what I want us to consider For example I live in a country where 60 % of the population live in what most would consider poverty yet many black South Africans are religious. But for them every single day is basically a struggle and if said to them " We are slabs of meat, but we also have self knowledge, perception of our surroundings, the ability to aspire and create beauty and goodness" they would probably agree but in fact have no idea how this is relevant to them....because its not Now I know we are talking about personal experiences but surly any epiphanies we have about the purpose of life needs to be able to be relevant to people less fortunate or just others? Sorry if I sound negative but I just want to expand this debate

Oh, that is just precious Weirdly, he is right in many places, but where he goes wrong is the idea that being a "social justice stormtrooper" is an inherently worthy pursuit. I don't find it funny at all, its this type of rhetoric that undermines real SJ change and effort Its annoying, of course you don't have to be a stormtrooper ....in fact that type of SJ belligerence I feel is just counterproductive and can alienate people you want to help Has he done any SJ work in RL? Also does anyone know his email address, I want to email and politely explain he is doing the real SJ cause a disservice

You make some good points but also some strange points But its the generalizations that I had to respond to because I know you prefer people letting you know when you wrong We dont need to be special because the word special is subjective in this sense. Everyone is special and no one is, for example I don't consider myself special but that doesn't mean my life hasn't been significant. For example look at how much your life has improved since I started posting here....sometimes Nonek we tend to forget the important things Also not all of humanity is flawed, not at all. I just think we should refrain from those types of psedo-intellectual points

- I would rather not go into personal details. I went to a foreign school for some years, that's how I know English. I'll leave it at that. - There is no agreement amongst Russians as to "what the west wants from us" exactly. But generally it varies around, "They want to set up a puppet government so they can control us and our resources" or "They want to destroy Russia by breaking it into multiple states". - The way I feel about China is that it's one of biggest threats to Russia. They have designs on the far eastern parts of Russia which they consider theirs historically or something. They also have a huge population and less land. Russia has more land per person than any other country in the world or we're way up the list (maybe Greenland or some such place has more). It's a natural progression from here. - I think by far the biggest accomplishments of sanctions is further increasing the animosity Russians hold for the west. - Crimea is historically Russian (well a Russian conquest anyway if you we go further back). It was given to Ukraine during Soviet times but then we all were the Soviet Union together. The loss of Crimea during the breakup of USSR which then truly became Ukrainian is one of the most painfully felt territorial losses. It is the base of the Black Sea fleet. And all those things are very dear to most Russians. During the entire time of Ukrainian independence their government made numerous attempts to "Ukrainize" Crimea and other eastern territories. By clumsy language laws and propaganda. They also introduced elements of direct rule from Kiev by abolishing some elections (I can't remember which but I think the post of governor amongst them). Out of fear that pro-Russian forces would win and push for separation. All this bred feelings amongst Russians in Russia that there is rusophobia in Ukraine and we need to stand up for Russians there and Russian culture that was under assault. Numerous times there was a push to expel the Russian fleet out of Crimea with varying degree of seriousness over the years. Or to get Russia to pay bigger and bigger sum of money for the Black Sea fleet base. The fear was, and I would guess correctly so, that with a more nationalistic government in Kiev they would finally go for it. Also that a NATO base may eventually come (which Ukrainian nationalist do want there if for nothing else out of spite) to the historic base of the Black Sea fleet, to Crimea with its long and colorful Russian military history. There is no limit to the rage and humiliation this would cause. As for Ukraine in general. It is of vital importance for Putin to destroy them and make an example out of them. And he successfully did wreck them for a very long time. Because successful reforms in Ukraine would have enormous influence in Russia which mean he will start losing power. Also I simply think it's personal for him. He feels kinship with another crook and authoritarian like himself be kicked out of office. I think he feels the same way about Assad in Syria. Thanks for the detailed response, I dont know many Russians who I could ask and I wanted a real and personal view Appreciate the effort Okay but you do realize I wasn't defending Saudi Arabia, I was just explaining why they are an ally to the USA

Thanks Hurlshot, I can always rely on you to play the " teacher card " and post a good article That's a good read and is very objective. It makes no reference to ISIS as a comparison to Saudi because that would be an insult and fabrication of facts It does articulate the rift and pressures around the USA and Saudi relationship but if you read some of the reasons it makes sense why the USA has had to distance itself from Saudi. For example the Saudi " only " expected The USA to support Mubarak when he was overthrown by most of Egypt during the Arab Spring. So lets get this straight the Saudi's wanted the USA to now directly intervene in a Democrat movement broadly supported by most of the country to put back in power a dictator...yes I know he was aligned with the USA during the Cold War but this was the past. The USA didn't say to him " become a dictator" ...this highlights how little the Saudi's understand by the concept of Democracy The USA should have removed Assad !!! What this really would have meant was : again ignoring the UNSC and really angering Russia and China...once again the Saudi have no idea of the importance of the USA not been seen to ignoring the UNSC The USA should have attacked Iran : What this really meant : The USA going to war again against a real military threat. Of course the USA would have won but at the cost of Iran now really hating the West and using its influence to really destabilize the region So in fact the so called " USA\Saudi " alliance is really about the USA starting 3 more wars.....I'm sorry but I can completely understand the USA and Obamas reticence. In fact it is painfully obvious that the Saudis and the USA aren't on the same page anymore and I support the USA is this

Sure. So firstly I want to set the record straight in case I have created the wrong impression. You know I support the West but that doens't mean I would think that the whole world needs to become like a Western country....no I completely understand that countries like Russia and China will always have there own ideology Also Russia is a very important player in the future of a more stable world and for me the sooner this tension ends with the West the better for everyone. Now when I say important I think you Russians even forget that but I'm not just saying that because you Russian...I would be polite and honest if I felt Russia wasn't relevant on the global arena. Now some of the reasons that Russia is very relevant They sit on the UNSC and they could effectively VETO all requests for military intervention or sanctions and this would truly make the UNSC useless and despite what people will suggest the UNSC does get to consensus and is effective ..like the Iranian sanctions Russia has certain relationships and influence that the West doesn't have, like with Iran and Syria. Russia seems to be automatically " trusted " by some countries because they not the West Russia is a nuclear power and China will often align itself to Russia...we don't want even a hint of a real military conflict or another Cold War...the world can coexist Russia is part of BRICS and of course so is South Africa so we have vested economic interest Then I studied and observed as much of Russia and what motivates Putin as any other person. I probably know more than you think but I still am not sure of many things. Anyway I don't automatically expect you to know all these answers but your view on what you feel you can answer will be appreciated Where in Russia do you live and how come is your English so good ? What does the average Russian think the West wants from Russia? Do they see the West as some sort of bully How do you feel about China What do you understand about the sanctions, do you feel they are unfair and are you feeling there impact? Why do you think Putin felt the need to absorb Crimea and basically try to absorb eastern Ukraine....why doesn't he trust the West? Thats all for now

Yeah it seems right but the real issue for me about ISIS is how they conduct themselves on the battlefield and how they treat any non Sunni, things like slavery, systemic rape, murder, torture,beheadings ...they are always in gross violation of various war crimes. The Saudi army at least tries to stick to the Geneva Convention Fighter can I ask you a few questions about your view on some Russian topics?

That isn't sound strategy it is better to be ally some of those that you don't like and enemy for some and make them fight each other. As it is much cheaper. And if your ally starts to become too strong and starts to behave so that negatives out weight positives then just change support from them to their enemies. Roman's already prove that dived and conquer is excellent strategy to control areas that you don't care. Elerond why isn't your fellow Finn Meshugger as reasonable as you? Please speak to him ..he will listen to you

Sometimes a wife gets beaten by her husband yet she still cares for him and makes excuses for him. So it's ok because she's ok? You think the Korean hysteria is fake? It's not entirely though. And that's the point. Why not? A couple of post about it is hardly noteworthy if you're implying I care unreasonably much. Fighter before I respond I just want to add something, I have noticed you are one of the people from the GG thread who engages with me since I apologized and I appreciate that. I am not sure who talks to me and who doesn't sometimes but I would like us to continue to debate. I never Troll, I only joke and not on a thread like this. Sometimes I make a point and its not clear...this is not a problem with your comprehension but rather with how I am making the point , so just ask me clarify as I am not trolling and its important I make my points so you understand them...thats obviously not the same as agreeing Now back to the debate. Yes, sure I always believe reasonable justification for any political alliance is necessary where the West is involved. But I really don't believe Saudi Arabia is anywhere as bad as ISIS....also I can assure you that Saudi Arabia has helped the West fight Al-Qaeda The point about Saudi " funding terrorism" is often misunderstood, there are Saudi citizens who have ideological sympathies with Islamic extremist groups and yes they fund them but its not the same thing as the actual Saudi royal family funding them Yeah I agree, I have no idea how real there " love and respect is " ...you right. It could be more of a expected response No I didn't mean your efforts in this debate, I am enjoying your perspective. I mean why do we care if some Saudi's are killed due to Sharia law ?

Why? You seem very sure?

Good now you opening up, lets continue with this train of thought So for some people the thought of not knowing what happens at death is unbearable....so they just say " this body is all I have and there is no soul\spirit\energy" ...you see this way they dont have to worry. You may not even know you are doing this because of the fear, it could be subconscious? Think about it before saying " no " I think you got that backwards, Bruce. I suspect it's the religious who are petrified of what comes after death. I made peace with it long ago. EDIT: Here's a neat question: What religion would you like to be true? Good question, I'm not religious by the way. I suppose you would call me an agnostic..or rather someone who believes there is no proof of any supreme being but I also understand and respect the fact that many people believe in religion and I would never mock or dismiss it Now your question....its tricky by the way because if any religion is now real that would mean actually having to obey certain scriptures or holy text so I have to think of one that makes the less impact... I like the idea of reincarnation and having to learn certain fundamental lessons on this earth until I move on

Not me. I am of the mind that people are just slabs of meat and our existence is short and pointless. Nothing about us is special and life is ultimately without meaning or purpose. I think it's a pretty optimistic view of things. Maybe you scared to accept you are more than just flesh...maybe you are scared by what happens when you die so you have convinced yourself this is just it ....it could be an excuse? An excuse for what? Good now you opening up, lets continue with this train of thought So for some people the thought of not knowing what happens at death is unbearable....so they just say " this body is all I have and there is no soul\spirit\energy" ...you see this way they dont have to worry. You may not even know you are doing this because of the fear, it could be subconscious? Think about it before saying " no "

Who me? Yes of course, much of my family are investment bankers as I have mentioned before and we have substantial investments in Saudi and other natural resources...thats not uncommon and doesn't disprove that Saudi is considered an ally of the West But why not ask me the question directly....unless I am mistaking what you are asking? It's good that you come forward and admit your intensions instead of trying to have a moral authority on the matter. I suggest talking to priest for some further soul-searcihng. Dude what is confusing you? My point about Saudi Arabia I would have thought by now is clear. I dont like there culture or like the many areas they lack in SJ....but this would not be enough for me to not go there for work or to accept they are an ally of the West And I have no issues with people in trading in Saudi commodities...but I admit there campaign to undermine the USA shale corporations has caused some serious financial woes. One of my cousins good friends works for a Western Saudi oil trading company and was based in Saudi. He use to love it, he was good friends with someone who knew one of the royal princes and the Saudi's took a real liking to him because he was good, he really knew the oil market. Anyway he never believed the Saudis would last this long, they are really impacting there economy now by keeping oil production low. This guy I know has been basically made redundant because there isn't much work now for people like him Saudi

Who me? Yes of course, much of my family are investment bankers as I have mentioned before and we have substantial investments in Saudi and other natural resources...thats not uncommon and doesn't disprove that Saudi is considered an ally of the West But why not ask me the question directly....unless I am mistaking what you are asking?

Maybe, probably, but, once in awhile, that moment she touches your arm and looks you in the eye ... seems to be a meaning in there somewhere. I like you, you so witty....you should join our political debates...I feel you are wasting this talent by not partaking in our debates

Oh my god... See they also "love the dear leader". No, I was there when they were mourning It was real, they do have "love and respect " for the royal family Its weird how so many of you guys seem to dislike Saudi Arabia and it seems to be because of these odd examples of how there religious law gets implemented in an extreme way? I don't get why you care?

Not me. I am of the mind that people are just slabs of meat and our existence is short and pointless. Nothing about us is special and life is ultimately without meaning or purpose. I think it's a pretty optimistic view of things. Maybe you scared to accept you are more than just flesh...maybe you are scared by what happens when you die so you have convinced yourself this is just it ....it could be an excuse? Lets talk about it ?

I am not sure if you're serious or trolling right now. What being an "ally to the west" is supposed to mean they are good now? Saudi Arabia is ruled by a brutal and backwards dictatorship. It's ruled by a king who (the previous one) imprisons his own daughters and marries 15 year old girls. King who is the west's ally. Which doesn't suggest he is any good. On the contrary it suggests western politicians are hypocrites who only care about "western values" when it suits them. Saudi Arabia is no better than any other brutal middle eastern regime. No my friend, I wish you guys would stop saying the West are hypocrites for having a non-critical relationship with Saudi Arabia This is purely strategic for the reasons I mentioned. Yes sometimes getting involved in another countries implementation of religious laws is not a good idea Also I think many of you have the wrong idea of Saudi Arabia...I was there for two separate 1 month projects, I didn't enjoy it at all. It was the worst place I ever had to work in....worse than any African country which I enjoy and understand But the Saudi local people do love the royal family, when I was there someone related to the king died and the whole country went into shutdown in mourning. Also the king does do things for the local people http://www.nbcnews.com/id/41733661/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/saudi-king-offers-billions-gifts-citizens/#.VjRsnrcrIb0 http://www.metro.us/news/saudi-king-gives-away-32-billion/zsJobx---ydnJAFDdF3D7/ Also most people who live there don't mind the conservative laws as they are Muslim and believe in the Saudi interpretation And this includes the uneducated foreign laborers who the Saudi's use for all manual labor like construction and taxi drivers ..and they really get treated badly yet they dont seem to mind So you mustn't think Saudi is some sort of " police fear state " like North Korea....its bad if you compare it to Western countries but its not unlivable

GD you hillbilly's are a superstitious lot ...you all believe in Ghosts and Big Foot right?

Yeah I'm happy, I think the Boks did very well .....they recovered after Japan and that was very important for the overall morale of white South Africans who follow Rugby

I'm treating myself to a Cheese Fondu today because I have to work this weekend and I had to cancel a weekend away at the river with a group of really good friends So a Cheese Fondue should make me feel better and I will buying the proper Swiss Cheese like Raclette and Gruyere