BruceVC

You need to be more accepting of their values. KP.... I really shouldn't find that funny but I did

We shouldn't even trade. It's because of business interests that we have gotten so involved in the situation in the first place. And trade interferes with the area, propping up rulers and supplying them. Hard not to trade given the oil in that region. And that's why we are all fighting over that place. On the point that some people are making that the Middle-East has never known democracy and that it is alien to them: Iran used to be a secular democracy, that was very progressive and was quite enlightened. Then they made a heinous mistake, they tried to nationalise their oil. Us (my British government I'm sad to say) went "Nu uh!" and sponsored a coup to replace this government with the current nutjob one, the one we now all hate. The Iranians naturally now hate us for that, as one of their wistful thoughts is "What could have been..." All because "The Oil Must Flow!" Sure you right. But I have to be honest I don't think one country that was a Democracy 30 years is much to recognize or celebrate

What about purple hair...u guys still together ? Anyway I have had some really good news about South Africa, we have finally got our electricity parastatel profitable. This may seem like a non-issue but we have issues with all the government run parastatels ....almost all of them run at a loss Anyway this proves that black South Africans can run these complex entities

Like everybody was on the same page in Iraq, Yugoslavia etc.? Careful your hypocrisy counter is going over 9000 Russia didn't intervene in Iraq as far as I remember, as for Yugoslavia at one point Nato and Russian forces were close to shooting at oneanother, definately not a good idea to pretend to inteverne together while backing different factions. Russia doesn't have the military muscle to be pressing its case in Syria, not any more really, she's doing it out of pride, some sense of lost empire, you know like Britain in the Falklands. But they were against those interventions, in the mechanisms (UN) instituted with the idea that conflicts should be resolved on the basis of consensus instead of unilateral action. When NATO was doing as it pleased the world over, that's all well and good but when Russia is protecting its interests it needs to be "taken down a notch", even though its targeting an entity that is now more or less the enemy of the entire world and is attacked by country that is supporting said entity - a country that is also a member of the NATO alliance and is undermining the supposed goals of the alliance in the matter. Long story short - Turkish support for ISIS is okay, Russians protecting their interests isn't? So by your logic, what entitles Russa to intervene in Syria. Shouldn't they be going through propper channels and attempt to woo over the UN. The UN was never able to account for the cold war dynamic so a 'consensus' for anthing, not just Iraq and Yugoslavia meant everyone except Russia and China, they were going to vote 'no' nomatter what. Is that hypocritical, sure, I'll go allong with that. Not a lot of the UN's lofty ideals of peace and cooperation survived contact with reality. Russia was invited to intervene by the legitimate, elected government of Syria. That is the major difference between the Russian and US interventions in Iraq, Yugo etc. If the international framework can be ignored at will then there is nothing wrong with Russia intervening anywhere it pleases. OMG....you actually think Assad was the legitimate leader of Syria, he never had a democratic election but he somehow is legitimate?

I think that it is the first time i can agree on something. I've been pointing it out since forever. The concept of democracy is alien to that area. Western civilization was raised on the greeko-latin culture... middle east, aside of the short rule of Alexander and later Seleucids was never under its influence. Thats the main reason we should just let them do whatever they want and only trade with whoever is ruling without meddling in their affairs. Guys I don't have the energy to go into detail because I'm focusing on my Apartheid comments But yes you right, most of the ME doesn't understand or really even wants Democracy...and yes sometimes in life you cannot force people to want to uplift themselves so we must leave them alone

Hold on....are you seriously telling me there are no cases of rape or murder where you live? Obviously there are, but not in significant numbers. I cant check the data now as i am using phone for forum tracking and not using my work related computer to do anything not related to my job. IIRC it is something like 1 per 40k populace a year in case of rapes. Please find out ...I'm interested I have to be honest its been quite a shock to realize how bad South Africa is ...I will raise this tonight on that radio station and get others opinions

Look this may seem severe but its not ...no one said there wouldn't be any issues We have about 1300 cases of rape in South Africa per day...yes per day So I'm sure this tragedy will be appropriately dealt with in Finland But yes I'm sorry for what happened ...sometimes I forget most people aren't desensitized to crime like us But I have to ask...is a single case of rape such a big deal? Between 2005-2010, there were 505 cases of rape in Finland, where 70% were done by natives, 23% foreign born and 7% by people not living in Finland at all. Since then, it has been raising. For men born up until the 80's in Finland, a man hitting a woman usually got a beating himself. It was veeery thrown upon. A rape was something that only borderline mentally ill people did. This kind of surprise rape that we have seen the last 20 years is a new phenomenon in finnish society. Okay Meshugger I need to say something very important to you and all other EU members I feel very guilty for some reason...like I haven't been honest but I didn't realize you have almost no crime where you live We have to realistic about something, we are talking about people who have come from a brutal war and have probably lost all material possessions. They have also given up all hope of going home...so think about that, imagine having no country. Then they walk for days through strange and protective EU lands where they realize ...they not really wanted And then they arrive in Finland....which must seem very strange to them. I am not justifying crime or saying " you must now accept rape " . All I'm saying is there will be instances of crime but the majority of Muslims will be ordinary people Anyway once again I thought you were talking about only Islamic extremist attacks when we spoke about what may be an issue...I am sure I didn't realize you meant crime as well

Hold on....are you seriously telling me there are no cases of rape or murder where you live?

Look this may seem severe but its not ...no one said there wouldn't be any issues We have about 1300 cases of rape in South Africa per day...yes per day So I'm sure this tragedy will be appropriately dealt with in Finland But yes I'm sorry for what happened ...sometimes I forget most people aren't desensitized to crime like us But I have to ask...is a single case of rape such a big deal?

Well that will be a massacre to think any group of Muslim countries has the military might to stop the USA or Russia But don't worry, the West doesn't like massacring Muslims anymore ..but I cant speak for Russia This is war of deception...nobody know who they are shooting...but in the end the west who gain, when Assad toppled, mission accomplished. So, the west used to like massacring Muslims..... The Arab spring is what made Syria unstable, we can't really claim to have done that ourselves. Political instability and a desire for progress and a need to demolish existing conservative institutions and power structures. It is what happens when a system of government is nolonger compatible with the people it governs. Experience shows that in those cases it is perhaps unavoidable to go through a period of civil unrest/civil war. Yes Qistina, Gorgon is right about this I'm sorry I just don't have the energy to correct your view of the West ....I just need a little break

Like everybody was on the same page in Iraq, Yugoslavia etc.? Careful your hypocrisy counter is going over 9000 Russia didn't intervene in Iraq as far as I remember, as for Yugoslavia at one point Nato and Russian forces were close to shooting at oneanother, definately not a good idea to pretend to inteverne together while backing different factions. Russia doesn't have the military muscle to be pressing its case in Syria, not any more really, she's doing it out of pride, some sense of lost empire, you know like Britain in the Falklands. But they were against those interventions, in the mechanisms (UN) instituted with the idea that conflicts should be resolved on the basis of consensus instead of unilateral action. When NATO was doing as it pleased the world over, that's all well and good but when Russia is protecting its interests it needs to be "taken down a notch", even though its targeting an entity that is now more or less the enemy of the entire world and is attacked by country that is supporting said entity - a country that is also a member of the NATO alliance and is undermining the supposed goals of the alliance in the matter. Long story short - Turkish support for ISIS is okay, Russians protecting their interests isn't? So by your logic, what entitles Russa to intervene in Syria. Shouldn't they be going through propper channels and attempt to woo over the UN. The UN was never able to account for the cold war dynamic so a 'consensus' for anthing, not just Iraq and Yugoslavia meant everyone except Russia and China, they were going to vote 'no' nomatter what. Is that hypocritical, sure, I'll go allong with that. Not a lot of the UN's lofty ideals of peace and cooperation survived contact with reality. Yes I agree....but you see the real problem here is Drowsy refuses to accept proper Serbian responsibility in Bosnia and Kosovo. Now some people may think I'm being rude to Drowsy but I'm not, I'm actually trying to liberate him. As a white South African I have accepted my parents role in Apartheid and my own white privilege. It doesn't make you weak it actually gives you clarity on how you should help with the racial transformation in South Africa So I am happily part of the solution but at times its tough and depressing..I won't lie and its difficult to explain. I get confronted by black South Africans who have had everything taken from them by Apartheid...no job, no family ...no future. Yet they not bitter or angry with you, they just want to be acknowledged So you feel shame ...how can you not. But of course most of the time we discuss politics and issues of racism for example. And everyday I am reminded how forgiving and reasonable black South Africans can be....they should hate me but for most its just a form of resentment So I understand how important accepting responsibility is ....I have an issue with people who for some reason just refuse to?

Well that will be a massacre to think any group of Muslim countries has the military might to stop the USA or Russia But don't worry, the West doesn't like massacring Muslims anymore ..but I cant speak for Russia

Like everybody was on the same page in Iraq, Yugoslavia etc.? Careful your hypocrisy counter is going over 9000 Russia didn't intervene in Iraq as far as I remember, as for Yugoslavia at one point Nato and Russian forces were close to shooting at oneanother, definately not a good idea to pretend to inteverne together while backing different factions. Russia doesn't have the military muscle to be pressing its case in Syria, not any more really, she's doing it out of pride, some sense of lost empire, you know like Britain in the Falklands. But they were against those interventions, in the mechanisms (UN) instituted with the idea that conflicts should be resolved on the basis of consensus instead of unilateral action. When NATO was doing as it pleased the world over, that's all well and good but when Russia is protecting its interests it needs to be "taken down a notch", even though its targeting an entity that is now more or less the enemy of the entire world and is attacked by country that is supporting said entity - a country that is also a member of the NATO alliance and is undermining the supposed goals of the alliance in the matter. Long story short - Turkish support for ISIS is okay, Russians protecting their interests isn't? What interests are you insisting Russia needs to protect...oh thats right., Assad the brutal dictator who refused to make any political concessions to his own citizens, I guess Syrians don't understand how great a dictatorship is, and then decided to use the full might of his army to annihilate his people ....and then he used chemical weapons. But none of this bothers you....because of NATO intervention 20 years ago in Bosnia and Kosovo, seriously drowsy its time to move on And finally you still think Russia a better choice to support than the countries that have been fighting ISIS for years. And yes we like Turkey as they have been helping with Syrian refugees and military support ..

Like everybody was on the same page in Iraq, Yugoslavia etc.? Careful your hypocrisy counter is going over 9000 Russia didn't intervene in Iraq as far as I remember, as for Yugoslavia at one point Nato and Russian forces were close to shooting at oneanother, definately not a good idea to pretend to inteverne together while backing different factions. Russia doesn't have the military muscle to be pressing its case in Syria, not any more really, she's doing it out of pride, some sense of lost empire, you know like Britain in the Falklands. Gorgon does raise a good point, it was Russia and China who vetoed military action in the beginning. Do you guys who are anti-USA and supported this veto realize that this war would have been over 5 years ago if the USA had been allowed to intervene I am always amazed how low the standards are when people make comments like " no the West had no right to attack Assad " ...and then of course the West doesn't get involved as Obama respected the UNSC So......Syria is now the most convoluted mess in the region...you guys must be happy. Very good solution Drowsy

Lol, you talk like it actually matters whether the jet actually flew into Turkish airspace. Each side will claim the other is to blame, people will believe what they want to believe, great powers will act according to their interests, and the victor's history will settle the matter after the smoke clears. As always. 2133 we are trying to not spread conspiracy theories in this thread so please only make posts you believe and not what you think people want to hear

We need to be cautious. Russia is a member of the ISIS coalition and the only reason this happened was because they are indeed heavily invested in there bombing campaign We must recognize the Russian contribution and accept this accident, I am hoping Russia will send ground troops into the ISIS territories so we can finally end this godforsaken war that exists in this benighted land where Western troops are not liked yet are expected to intervene I dont want the West to lose anymore troops but the Russians are angry and they are new to the overall conflict so it makes sense they send the required infantry If Russia sent there its own troops, then there is high change that Syria and Iraq then become part of Russian Federation. And I am not sure if that is what anybody even Russians want. 1. Russia isn't going to be sending ground troops. Their goal is to force a peace process and keep Assad in power, not to retake the country for him. 2. Syria and Iraq becoming part of RF? What? How does that work? In scenario where Russia sends ground troops to take areas from ISIS they don't just need to march in and shoot some people that oppose it, because ISIS members will just become part of civilian population and take over again when those troops go away. To prevent that they need to actually conquer those areas and establish new rule which takes time and effort to build infrastructure, governmental control, dismantling current power structures etc.. Also we have USA's attempt as burden that shows that trusting local governance isn't necessary working policy and Russian current desire to show that it's world's super power and it's able to do same and even more than USA. And then why Syria and Iraq become part of RF, that is because actually accomplishing all previously mentioned things Russia (or any other country that tries to do it) needs at least decade worth of time and effort to build new working order there. And if Russian current political climate don't change in that decade it could be very difficult thing for Russian leadership just give up control of those lands even though they don't necessary want to keep them, as those lands have quite lot natural resources that interest parties behind Russian political elite. So I am saying that Russia (or any other party) sending troops to combat ISIS has high change to become permanent occupation even if such is against their interests. Holy Smoke dude you Finns like to treat people fairly....no way the Russians if they did send troops would be there longer than they absolutely have to and they wouldn't be too concerned with civilians ...but they wouldn't go in guns blazing One month maximum but there would be Russian casualties

I agree it really seems like a stupid thing for Turkey to do to shoot down a Russian plane even if they were on Russian airspace...I doubt they would do this to an American plane? But it doesn't require a response, the Russians are saying they have proof it wasn't in Turkey airspace so lets just wait and see But why anyone thinks Russia would want to go to war with Turkey boggles the mind

We need to be cautious. Russia is a member of the ISIS coalition and the only reason this happened was because they are indeed heavily invested in there bombing campaign We must recognize the Russian contribution and accept this accident, I am hoping Russia will send ground troops into the ISIS territories so we can finally end this godforsaken war that exists in this benighted land where Western troops are not liked yet are expected to intervene I dont want the West to lose anymore troops but the Russians are angry and they are new to the overall conflict so it makes sense they send the required infantry If Russia sent there its own troops, then there is high change that Syria and Iraq then become part of Russian Federation. And I am not sure if that is what anybody even Russians want. The Russians are not very good at dealing with Muslims ....they wouldnt want to absorb Iraq or Syria....lets be honest both these countries are basically dysfunctional. Who would want to try to fix either country....maybe the Iranians ?

Nah. its a war zone and accidents happen ...Russia knows this It was not accident, because Turkey knew that there was no aircrafts that are hostile for them in air. It was just show of power from Turkey. Yes sorry you are right...I read the link now

We need to be cautious. Russia is a member of the ISIS coalition and the only reason this happened was because they are indeed heavily invested in there bombing campaign We must recognize the Russian contribution and accept this accident, I am hoping Russia will send ground troops into the ISIS territories so we can finally end this godforsaken war that exists in this benighted land where Western troops are not liked yet are expected to intervene I dont want the West to lose anymore troops but the Russians are angry and they are new to the overall conflict so it makes sense they send the required infantry

Nah. its a war zone and accidents happen ...Russia knows this

;Yes this is a problem, well done Zora finally some worthwhile anti-Western news. Strange how I can't recall you actually ever making a post yet this news was important enough to you to " let us know due to the gravitas " I doubt Russia will attack Turkey in anyway...this was a tragedy and Russia will have to absorb it as the West has had to do many times

Okay now you have made me remember a real criticism I have of the Muslim world ...I hope you can answer Why is the Muslim world fine with the fact that the EU is taking in about 2 million Syrian Muslims. Why should the EU be taking in any Syrians? How many refugees is Malaysia taking in? Countries like Saudi Arabia are taking in none ...none. Yet the Muslim world is fine with these Syrians going to leave there home in the ME and going to a Christian country?And we know that many Muslims have issues with the EU ....yet obviously these issues aren't enough to want to help the Syrians I explained earlier that one of the reasons that makes the West the most dominant ideology in the world is it believes in human rights...this a good example of that @ Qistina We appreciate you telling us how we feel about things but can you answer this post? Malaysia have been taking refugees since Afghan War, Gulf War, Bosnia War...what else? We are small country, we can't take anymore refugees, you know Rohingya refugees? They are too many and it's dangerous if we take them in. So we don't take them. Malaysia size is about Britain size actually. How do you expect we want to take loads of people, we will be blown up like balloon... https://mapfight.appspot.com/my-vs-us/malaysia-united-states-size-comparison https://mapfight.appspot.com/my-vs-gb/malaysia-united-kingdom-size-comparison See now? USA and Europe are big mass of land, so you guys have no problems taking a lot of refugees Okay thats understandable about Malaysia but what about the fact that the Gulf countries like UAE and Saudi aren't prepared to take one Syrian. Why would they not offer to help fellow Muslims ....is this because of the Shia\Sunni tension?

I read that link about Sweden, surly that can't be right....it makes it out like Sweden is some barbaric land? It looks thing from very single minded perspective that cause it to interpret things so that they fit article's writers and publication's political views. Meaning that it is very typical Breitbart article and you should not believe anything that you can#t confirm from other sources. But Sweden is barbaric land, every Finn will tell you that is the case I'll be honest if I was a Swede I would be offended by that article....I am not a swede and I was offended ...what political views do Breitbart follow? It is right-wing and mostly pro-republican publication. Ah..okay but I wonder why they feel the need to attack Sweden.....do they realize Sweden is consistently in the top 5 countries that have the happiest citizens in the world ?

Okay now you have made me remember a real criticism I have of the Muslim world ...I hope you can answer Why is the Muslim world fine with the fact that the EU is taking in about 2 million Syrian Muslims. Why should the EU be taking in any Syrians? How many refugees is Malaysia taking in? Countries like Saudi Arabia are taking in none ...none. Yet the Muslim world is fine with these Syrians going to leave there home in the ME and going to a Christian country?And we know that many Muslims have issues with the EU ....yet obviously these issues aren't enough to want to help the Syrians I explained earlier that one of the reasons that makes the West the most dominant ideology in the world is it believes in human rights...this a good example of that @ Qistina We appreciate you telling us how we feel about things but can you answer this post?