BruceVC

Nope...Saudi is NOT a leading Sunni country in Middle East, they not even Sunni, they are Wahhabi Their royal families are gangsters and they use whatever means to topple eachother. Since they are who create Al Qaeda with USA and CIA, they will use them to against each other. Read this book, it's a good book about Saudi http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8088325-the-thieves-of-riyadh Also read this book, this explain the creation of Saudi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_of_Mr._Hempher,_The_British_Spy_to_the_Middle_East http://www.hakikatkitabevi.com/download/english/14-ConfessionsOf%20ABritishSpy.pdf No you guys are misunderstanding something simple about the ME Saudi Arabia is considered a Sunni\Gulf state and it is the most influential country...this is not about the fact they follow Wahhabism http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/understanding-the-gulf-states

Oh okay that makes sense now But the reality is the West does accept other cultures ....you can have your own religion and cultural values if you live in a Western country but you need to accept that your culture cannot break the law of the country In fact I would argue the West is much more accepting of other cultures than anywhere else in the world

This post young grasshopper

The bacon is terrible in that and they should feel ashamed for wasting bacon. I had barbecue for lunch and it was great. Edited for accuracy. That does look .....you Texans know your meat, no doubt

Wow 2 pages of WTF! Bruce, you want to tell me that people who were raised here have miinformed view? I believe they simply despise our approach to certain way of life. I admit i have enough of PC to a point that i could start hating it. Add some other cultural differences and there it is. You go ballistic. Also Calling Sauds allies is a bit far fetched. At best they share same economic and political interests but do you actually see them fighting extremism? Considering the branch of Islam they practice is the most restrictive and most militant I'd have my doubts about their real allegiance. Well this thread is about honesty so I will be honest....what do you think I am saying is misinformed about? And yes Saudi Arabia is an ally to the West but you need to understand why they are an ally to the West. People sometimes misunderstand me because they think my view is inconsistent but its not. My view on the overall Middle East is I want stability and I don't want the oil supply to be disrupted Saudi Arabia is the leading Sunni country in the ME and the other Sunni\Gulf states follow there lead so this includes UAE, Qatar and Kuwait. These also happen to be overall the most stable countries in the ME and the ones that the West understands the best. My company has a branch in Dubai and I have worked in all these countries So first point is it would economically imprudent to now become an enemy of Saudi Arabia. Also you have to realize after 9/11 the Saudi's became a target for Al-Qaeda because they considered the Saudi royal family as apostate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Saudi_Arabia So up to then the Saudi royal family didn't really care to help the USA but they realized that there survival was linked to the West defeating Al-Qaeda and they became a real asset in the war on terror as they provided invaluable information So yes we need to respect the fact that the Saudi's dont embrace liberal values such as human rights but they also dont support extremism ...and that is what matters in the context of the Middle East and remember my objective ....the stability of the region Also for the first time Saudi Arabia is actively involved in the airstrikes against ISIS....so they stepping up in there regional responsibility http://edition.cnn.com/2014/10/09/world/meast/isis-coalition-nations/index.html

TN what did you mean by that Troll post ? What ideology is less by integration?

US dollar is declining, because of that Malaysian Ringgit is also declining...China is rising now...everyone focus on China now... Theres no reason to be embarrassed about your Western tastes, embrace them. The West is the Best. You see this is correct but we don't like to say this in public because its seen as hubris

So once agian you are misunderstanding me and you are getting defensive and making assumptions about what I am saying But I don't mind, I am use to people misunderstanding me...people on this forum often misunderstand me...its okay If you think I am asking a strange question then just ask me to clarify, I am not trying to catch you out and trick you The question I asked is actually a simple one but very important for measuring the how successful any government is http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/03/20/international-happiness-day-happiest-countries/25073055/ http://themysteriousworld.com/10-happiest-countries-in-the-world/ You see the when we talk about successful governments it shouldn't be about economic wealth or military strength It should be about something much more important " are the citizens of your country happy "

Really...????? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05IyDp0R5gk Yes so you must understand in South Africa in these radio debates I hear people saying the same thing as you..they will say something like " The USA has huge social problems ...look at the racism in the police force and how African Americans are victimized " ....and I say " yes, there are issues of police brutality but no one said the USA was perfect ....like all countries there are things that need to be improved " but why would anyone think any country is perfect? My point is the West offers it citizens the best quality of life....the West doesnt offer perfection ...that doesn't exist anywhere

Of course we are happy...do we look unhappy to you? No I never asked you that, I asked you do you think the Citizens of the East are happier than the citizens of the West ? Because what I'm saying is the West offers its citizens a very good equal quality of life ...and that freedom is one of the reasons for the success of the West

My brother is the leader of the Chicago branch of Illuminati Jews and he told me that's not true. Gfted1 stop teasing ...there is already enough misinformation in this thread Qistina you must understand when someone jokes with you like Gfted1 its not because he doesn't like Muslims its because as I said to you earlier you sometimes make these posts that are based on what we call conspiracy theories ....and I can promise you most people in the West don't think at all like you think we think For example you really are exaggerating how much influence the Jews have in Western culture

I am not talking about DNA.....i am talking about western world is degenerating, eastern world is regenerating...or i use wrong words here? Anyway...look at Japan, they simply rival the west technologically and culturally. Japan have become icon in Asia as the one who can beat the giant...japaese technology and art are so awesome, unmatched. Who never dreamed of being a ninja? Everyone in the world read manga and watching animes, even western people enjoying hentai.... What i mean is, eastern people are willing to learn and change, this is our strength, we learn from you, we come out with something new, and we changed. While you in the west are static, unchanging, stagnant... Malaysia economy is not stable, unfortunately our currency is based on US dollar...that's the problem. Our ex PM did suggest we use gold-dinar, but Illluminati Jews don't allow it...and he's forced to resign....so now my country economy is quite like ****.... Oh okay I see what you mean, yes you right the East has become very good at doing certain things better than the West but thats not enough to surpass the West. Are the citizens of the East happier than the citizens of the West?

Im not with you ? What ideology is being overpowered in your analogy ?

I think that is more racial than religious...you must understand that South African Muslims are...well, Africans...and you know what western people do to them? Surely they have anti-west sentiment, so when ISIS blow up the west, they will be happy...they take ISIS as their hero... This is what western people forget about, western people making scars a lot in the east...today it have mixed up between racial and religion. In brotherhood sense we all Muslims are brothers and sisters, you spew hate on Muslims, ALL Muslims no matter what race will react...but if you spew hatred toward certain racial group, no one care... The mistake western people make now is mix it all together...you attack on Islam and Muslims generally without looking at culture, race, country...all these are since 9/11. Like this Syrian refugees flocking Europe, they are seen as "Muslim refugees"....while actually many Syrians are Christians.... No almost all Muslims in South Africa are Indian But we don't judge all Muslims, I keep trying to explain that...we dont like extremists. We judge Al-Qaeda and ISIS And the West doesn't attack all Muslim countries, the West has a real alliance with many middle east countries like Saudi Arabia Maybe...they may see it like that. Maybe they do see the Jihadists in a positive light because they strike against the West, I never considered that But then they have a misinformed view of the West because this is not a war against Muslims the West is active in....its a war against extremism

I'm really glad we are chatting because it gives me a chance to explain where you are misunderstanding things You see the West doesn't have to worry about genetically degenerating because we live in a era where genetics don't matter anymore because the strength of an ideology is not about how physically strong people are. We use technology and metrics like economic strength and political stability to measure the success of a country And what makes the West dominate all other ideologies in this space is not that I think white people are cleverer or that we are more successful in business its that we offer our citizens the best quality of life and we believe in the free market to drive the economy So if you really want to surpass the West you need to find a way to make your citizens happier and more prosperous. And I think that may be harder than you realize but why compete with the West ?Lets not see this as competition, Malaysia is successful and stable economy. Its seems silly to want to compare yourself the like of the UK and the USA?

I doubt that, do you think Muslims get blamed unfairly ? Watch Fox News or CNN, when there is something blown up, the first question that come out is "do Muslims involved?". So now it is even easier to make Muslims the black sheep...anyone can wear the mask with some arabic words, shouting "Allahuakbar!!" then making crimes, caught on videos or CCTV, everyone will just assume "religion of peace strikes again!"...just admit such thing will happen...don't you think criminals in the west won't think like that? Yes I can see how you may feel like that but I need to explain something important to you In South Africa I am very active on radio talk shows where we discuss politics and global events. In South Africa radio talk shows are how people debate and how we explain things to each other Anyway I have noticed that the South African Muslim community is always very defensive when it comes to things like ISIS So for example I might say " ISIS is killing people in Syria " and then someone would say " yes but the West is bombing Muslims " I never understood why South Africans Muslims weren't angry and critical about what ISIS was doing and then 2 weeks ago I heard people phoning in and saying things like " why cant Muslims just be peaceful ....what is wrong with Muslims " .Then some Muslims phoned in and were very angry and hurt and said " we are tired of being blamed for what ISIS was doing " I then realized that South Africans Muslims thought that people like me assumed that all Muslims were guilty of violence we see that ISIS commits ....and you are actually doing the same thing where you assume Westerners just assume all Muslims are the same. Of course I dont assume all Muslims are like ISIS. At the moment ISIS has killed more Muslims than Westerners and the military coalition that is fighting ISIS in the ME consists of many Muslim countries Yes some people in Western countries don't like Muslims but thats the same in Muslim countries. But most of us are like me and we dont assume all Muslims are the same and we dont dislike Muslims

I doubt that, do you think Muslims get blamed unfairly ?

You can expect the same outcome for as long as there are individuals who believe enough in Islam. And unlike the Soviet Union and its Baader-Meinhof types, jihadis of their era, you will not see Islam wither away in a few decades. At least for as long as the great majority of the masses that comprise the faith are inevitably poor (therefore difficult to seduce with a middle class hedonistic lifestyle), and in a constant state of population expansion (which ensures they stay relatively poor). And if the native population of Europe continues the trend of shrinking birth rates and importation of low wage workers from Islamic countries that they cannot successfully assimilate (as has been proven repeatedly) then the problem will last until a tipping point of some sort is reached. The problem is not the odd terrorist attack or in Islam itself, its the lack of a stable European identity that goes beyond "let's keep our wealthy status quo ad inifinitum". If Europeans knew who they were, positioning vis-a-vis Islam or any other entity would be much easier. The position of the great majority of muslims versus Europeans is fundamentally one of enmity based in religion. You can think what you like of that attitude, but its clear and logical. The position of Europe versus Islam is to ignore this aspect of muslim identity, create a separate category for the most combative ones ("extremists") thereby sweeping the problem under the rug and essentially pretending that nothing is happening. The European "solution" of expecting them all to become little secular Frenchmen and Germans, singing La Marseillaise and reading Goethe was a bit... presumptuous... to begin with. I really wish you wouldn't make such negative posts....I don't believe a word of it but I'm worried you may exacerbate the tension that many of European members are feeling The Syrian refugees coming to Europe DOES NOT represent some sort of clash of civilizations. But I will say this, I may even agree with you that perhaps Muslim countries do resent the West for some or other reason but the reality is you will not see some sort of Islamic conversion of Europe because the Muslim world is simply just not stronger or admired enough to influence this Sorry to sound direct but thats why Europeans have nothing to fear...your ideology and culture cannot be conquered by someone weaker than you Tell this to Romans... You can expect the same outcome for as long as there are individuals who believe enough in Islam. And unlike the Soviet Union and its Baader-Meinhof types, jihadis of their era, you will not see Islam wither away in a few decades. At least for as long as the great majority of the masses that comprise the faith are inevitably poor (therefore difficult to seduce with a middle class hedonistic lifestyle), and in a constant state of population expansion (which ensures they stay relatively poor). And if the native population of Europe continues the trend of shrinking birth rates and importation of low wage workers from Islamic countries that they cannot successfully assimilate (as has been proven repeatedly) then the problem will last until a tipping point of some sort is reached. The problem is not the odd terrorist attack or in Islam itself, its the lack of a stable European identity that goes beyond "let's keep our wealthy status quo ad inifinitum". If Europeans knew who they were, positioning vis-a-vis Islam or any other entity would be much easier. The position of the great majority of muslims versus Europeans is fundamentally one of enmity based in religion. You can think what you like of that attitude, but its clear and logical. The position of Europe versus Islam is to ignore this aspect of muslim identity, create a separate category for the most combative ones ("extremists") thereby sweeping the problem under the rug and essentially pretending that nothing is happening. The European "solution" of expecting them all to become little secular Frenchmen and Germans, singing La Marseillaise and reading Goethe was a bit... presumptuous... to begin with. Truth to be told I can't blame them for not wanting to read Goethe And yeah. We had plenty examples in history. Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome etc. With Rome being the best example as it ell to religious turmoils and barabrian invasions Chilloutman and Dark Can I ask you guys something....do you feel that with this influx of refugees coming to Europe that European culture is threatened? And do you draw comparisons between the EU now and Rome...in other words the Romans also thought they would last forever ?

You can expect the same outcome for as long as there are individuals who believe enough in Islam. And unlike the Soviet Union and its Baader-Meinhof types, jihadis of their era, you will not see Islam wither away in a few decades. At least for as long as the great majority of the masses that comprise the faith are inevitably poor (therefore difficult to seduce with a middle class hedonistic lifestyle), and in a constant state of population expansion (which ensures they stay relatively poor). And if the native population of Europe continues the trend of shrinking birth rates and importation of low wage workers from Islamic countries that they cannot successfully assimilate (as has been proven repeatedly) then the problem will last until a tipping point of some sort is reached. The problem is not the odd terrorist attack or in Islam itself, its the lack of a stable European identity that goes beyond "let's keep our wealthy status quo ad inifinitum". If Europeans knew who they were, positioning vis-a-vis Islam or any other entity would be much easier. The position of the great majority of muslims versus Europeans is fundamentally one of enmity based in religion. You can think what you like of that attitude, but its clear and logical. The position of Europe versus Islam is to ignore this aspect of muslim identity, create a separate category for the most combative ones ("extremists") thereby sweeping the problem under the rug and essentially pretending that nothing is happening. The European "solution" of expecting them all to become little secular Frenchmen and Germans, singing La Marseillaise and reading Goethe was a bit... presumptuous... to begin with. I really wish you wouldn't make such negative posts....I don't believe a word of it but I'm worried you may exacerbate the tension that many of European members are feeling The Syrian refugees coming to Europe DOES NOT represent some sort of clash of civilizations. But I will say this, I may even agree with you that perhaps Muslim countries do resent the West for some or other reason but the reality is you will not see some sort of Islamic conversion of Europe because the Muslim world is simply just not stronger or admired enough to influence this Sorry to sound direct but thats why Europeans have nothing to fear...your ideology and culture cannot be conquered by someone weaker than you

Sure Paris attackers are next generation of imigrants, so we can expect same outcome of another generation of refuges? Good question but no, remember France does face two real social problems that are relatively unique to the rest of Europe They have a huge problem with the integration of Muslims from there colonies They are actively involved in numerous campaigns in places like Africa against extremism I really admire the French for there effort and assistance they are giving there former African colonies...but sadly this makes them a real target for the extremists So my point being France has different social challenges to other European countries

Sure I have heard that about the Scandinavian countries before....lickety called them " self-hating Swedes " I found it quite funny because as a foreigner I was unaware of this type of view ...but I can understand why some in the EU may see the Scandinavians approach as maybe far too accommodating...I understand not all countries will or can do this And yes if they have no military commitments then this just reduces the chance of an attack even more What country are you worried about in the EU?

Okay but I thought you had concerns about a home grown attack? Interesting but the lack of refugees arriving in Finland confirms one of my points

I see the other thread was locked but I had written a long post to Meshugger and I really want to post it Also this is an important social change for all our members who live in the EU....and we need somewhere to discuss our concerns and look for solutions Anyway here is my post to Meshugger Let me guess: more quotas, a more heterogenous society, more forced tolerance, more restriction on speech in real life and online, essentially undermining any trust or common bond that could keep a society together without a repressive government. Thus, making Europe more like the Middle East than Europe before in order to keep it together. But I am all ears, please tell me what solutions that i might've missed. "No....thats way off. I'm sorry you think so less of my insight on these matters ....but I suppose its because of our pointless debates in the GG thread So firstly you are asking a valid and reasonable question, this has been asked by many people and studied and the various outcomes analyzed. So I'll just summarize the various responses Yes one of the targets of Islamic extremism is the whole EU but groups like ISIS prefer to target the countries that they feel have been actively involved in a war against Islam as it adds to the sensationalism and there definition of " meaningful jihad " . So this would be places like France and the UK. Large numbers of people from the ME don't like Finland, I'm not sure why? Its probably the weather ...remember those immigrants from Iraq saying Finland wasn't that hospitable and recommended people go somewhere else .....I have to say thats quite the claim to fame. People come from a war torn hell hole like the occupied territories of Iraq under ISIS where death, beheadings or crucifixion await you and yet they can't live in Finland ..... But on a serious note the good news is I doubt Finland is a destination of choice so you will naturally get less long term immigrants So these are just reasons why Finland is one of the EU countries that wouldn't normally be on the radar for a Paris style attack....these alone should reassure you a little Now I'll comment on the actual homegrown terrorism Yes its true homegrown terrorism is theoretically the hardest to stop. But the Boston Marathon attacks are what are almost impossible to prevent. You have a small group of people who are foreigners and don't share there views with the greater Muslim community, so the attack is not discussed or boasted about on social media and the normal information gathering techniques like informants are ineffective. Why I'm mentioning this is that in places like the USA and UK they do prevent attacks through information gathering...so dont assume an attack once thought about is inevitable Attacks like Paris and the London underground were originated from people who had lived in the communities for years, this can be prevented by having a good relationship with the Muslim community and having people who really will inform. Now I mention this because this requires a social reality for people like the refugees where they feel part of the system.....countries like Denmark, Sweden ,Finland and Norway are well known for excellent methods of integrating foreigners so once again this will reduce overall likelihood of attacks. How many extremist attacks have occurred in the Scandinavian countries over the last 10 years? And this is despite the fact that there are people who have left these countries and even fought in Syria France has a huge problem, they have trying to integrate Muslims from there former colonies for decades but they did this before it was understood that to reduce resentment and social alienation you can't just have people living in ghettos on social grants ..this breeds fundamentalism. France has also been correctly involved in various campaigns against extremism ....add to that sectors of the Muslim community there who are disillusioned and France becomes the logical target in the EU. But I'm not blaming the French...they are just in an invidious position historically when it comes to Islamic extremism..and of course we all stand by France Why I mentioned France is because a place like Finland is seen very differently to extremists and also the UK is equally considered a target. Yet we have seen fewer attacks succeed in the UK . Why is that ? Apart from the geography its because of the integration of the Muslim community and the fact there is better dialogue between the UK government and the UK Muslim community . So integration is very important So in summary, yes you will have thousands of Syrians arriving in Finland. I imagine they will be nervous and see Finland as an alien place culturally compared to what they use to...but your government will provide the necessary resources to integrate them. Also you mustn't compare these Syrians to the Algerians and Tunisians that you see in French gangs who are often involved in crime . The vast majority of them will not be criminals and just want a place they can safely raise there families and will give no issues to your country. And even if a small percentage are extremists they would rather target a place like France Finally there is nothing wrong with being concerned and asking the questions you asked , I can imagine for all you guys like Mam, Dark and yourself this whole refugee migration must seem a little daunting. I would expect you to have doubts which is understandable ...then we had the Paris attacks so you guys might have thought " OMG ....and we are letting thousands of them into our country...what have our governments done " But the people who committed the Paris attacks are not motivated or have views like the Syrians arriving in Finland...so dont make a comparison. Anyway I hope to have alleviated some of your concerns....let me know if have other questions "

Yes, you have made some valid examples. I am aware of what you saying and I will respond but its going to take time for me to make the post and I'm also working ...but I want to reply and I will so please be patient

I do have several solutions and ideas, remember I have been studying the Middle East for years and I have worked extensively in the ME so I consider myself well informed Is that your concern, just to clear. Someone immigrating to Finland ....hating the West and then attacking Finland or indoctrinating his children? Please be honest so I can give you the best response