BruceVC

My comment should not be construed as anything other than a repudiation of Robert Kagan's eliteist snobbery in that op-ed Bruce linked We should know by now almost all of Bruce's arguments are as full of **** as a toilet after eating taco bell. No this is an exaggeration, sorry KP but I dismiss this post as nothing but "anti-BruceVC propaganda "

GD how much of this do you agree with "And the source of allegiance? We’re supposed to believe that Trump’s support stems from economic stagnation or dislocation. Maybe some of it does. But what Trump offers his followers are not economic remedies — his proposals change daily. What he offers is an attitude, an aura of crude strength and machismo, a boasting disrespect for the niceties of the democratic culture that he claims, and his followers believe, has produced national weakness and incompetence. His incoherent and contradictory utterances have one thing in common: They provoke and play on feelings of resentment and disdain, intermingled with bits of fear, hatred and anger. His public discourse consists of attacking or ridiculing a wide range of “others” — Muslims, Hispanics, women, Chinese, Mexicans, Europeans, Arabs, immigrants, refugees — whom he depicts either as threats or as objects of derision. His program, such as it is, consists chiefly of promises to get tough with foreigners and people of nonwhite complexion. He will deport them, bar them, get them to knuckle under, make them pay up or make them shut up. "

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/this-is-how-fascism-comes-to-america/2016/05/17/c4e32c58-1c47-11e6-8c7b-6931e66333e7_story.html Guys here is a powerful and evocative piece of commentary, I definitely agree with some of it...its deep but well worth reading

But this is my point, Trump keeps making these absurd comments and many of his supporters just believe it Why would anyone conceivably believe Mexico would ever pay for this wall?

Mesgugger why do you think people like Trump ? And many of his policies are idiotic and wont benefit the USA at all, like the Trump Wall and his plans to deport 11 million people ....yes thats right, its all hyperbole, grandstanding and false bravado

This should be a good thing, I believe this has been discussed in some detail in another thread?

You won't be missed. Silly Namutree.You won't be rid of me, Europe has had the internet since at least 2010 LOL. I don't mind you being here on the forum. Just please do as you said you would and leave the country after Trump wins. Why would you want people to leave the USA if Trump wins? Its like you daring people to "do what they say " ? I would imagine its better to reconcile the various political differences these elections have created?

You won't be missed. Silly Namutree.You won't be rid of me, Europe has had the internet since at least 2010 LOL. Sadie is right Namutree ..,.the Internet is a global phenomena

Okay, you raise some good points about this adding to the overall strength of Democracy I need to try to see that aspect of this race

Yes I agree, for me Sanders is a creating a distraction to the ultimate Clinton victory I have been saying for a while now but I wish Sanders would just end his campaign, it has been a good race and he has done very well but I want to see the Democrats starting to meaningfully unite behind Hilary to address the Trump political behemoth

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/poll-election-2016-shapes-up-as-a-contest-of-negatives/2016/05/21/8d4ccfd6-1ed3-11e6-b6e0-c53b7ef63b45_story.html FivethirtyEight grades ABC News/Washington Post polls as an A-. Geez, those statistics are interesting This really seems like its going to be a VERY close presidential race

There seems to be a degree of sarcasm and negativity on this thread? I try not to be sarcastic and focus on the big picture view of politics and not get bogged down when those meaningless debates around ideology begin...sometimes they can be divisive So for me the good news view at the moment is " Hilary Clinton will almost certainly be the next president of the USA" .. But the whole election race is chaotic and I think very hard to predict accurately ..I still stand by my original prediction but there are some anomalies and exciting new developments that make any prediction possibly spurious

Holy Smoke that looks brilliant !!!

http://news.sky.com/story/1699062/celebrities-come-out-in-force-for-remain-vote This seems to have backfired for "stay in the EU" camp Many people in the UK don't like being lectured to by celebrities about how they should vote, they think most celebrities are out of touch with the economic reality of your average citizen and this whole idea by celebrities is just seen as condescending

the whole notion makes me laugh Its one of those really good examples of how sometimes people on the Internet have a very different way of behaving, and there expected outcome of a situation, than how they would act in RL

Don't sweat the small stuff, BVC. People broadcasting that they are ignoring someone is just the electronic equivalent of storming out of a room and slamming the door. Y You right but there are people on this forum who refuse to engage with me, and thats there right, but they also feel the need to fairly constantly imply I'm a troll ..even to the point of jumping into a debate they not active in just to say " why do you talk to BruceVC, he is a troll " So in other words they not really ignoring me as they feel its incumbent on them to tell others I'm a troll....they effectively make me relevant as its obvious to me I bother them on some levels. To truly ignore someone surly you just block them and then you stop talking about ..you make them irrelevant that way?

Yes, you're quite right. He's going on ignore so I don't see his trolling anymore. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa....BruceVC is a troll Such a pointless and false cliche....bye Hiro its a pity you cant have a debate with people who have different views to you

Although, to be fair, you're fairly unlikely to get a tangible return on your investment. I'm not with you, are you saying helping others get a better education is not a good investment? I doubt Sadie means she will get a personal benefit, like someone she indirectly helps get educated is going to give her money But an educated and skilled society is one of the requirements to achieve economic transformation, people with jobs contribute towards the tax base and are critical to the basic spending power of any society So this then benefits everyone..so yes its not tangible but its still an expected positive outcome of a progressive society Education is such a long term investment that the likelyhood of feeling the effects of that investment before you hit retirement age is low. I think thats what he means. It depends on you what define as " positive return on education " So for example ( and I'm simplifying these points ) If you contribute towards getting getting 100 people educated at University and these people get jobs they contribute towards the tax base for government. When government allocates yearly budgets to municipalities it now has more money so your region could get more money that the local municipality needs to manage to improve the area. Suddenly the dirt road you use to go to work on everyday that has existed for the last 60 years get tarred and is immediately improved. This is a benefit you could see 6-8 years after the initial investment in the education of others If you help fund a persons costs to study medicine and become a GP and once they qualified they open a clinic in the rural area you live, where there has never been a clinic, this is a benefit you could see 8-10 after the initial investment But if your definition of " positive return on education " is government raising the minimum wage this could take much longer and is much more complex objective to achieve that is influenced by other factors outside of education The economic return is likely to take quite a while, as due to educational inflation, BA's aren't worth as much as they used to be and a lot of those kids are going to be making little more than an uneducated labourer for quite a while. I make around 35k per year as an unskilled labourer, and most university educated people I know don't make much more than that. There is a lot of room to grow, but it takes years of experience, or more education to make much more. I also know in Canada, you can write off much of your tuition on your tax returns. I wasted 20k on a 3d modelling class, and didn't pay taxes for 6 years afterwards (by wasted I mean I did nothing with my training, rather than a dig at the school). In the US much of their income will go towards paying off student debt for years to come, so that income isn't driving any sort of economic activity. Education is essential and shouldn't be neglected, but its an investment in the future. You raise some very relevant and accurate points based on your own experiences and living in Canada So just to explain in more detail. I am basing my point in this debate around a premise which can broken down into points like ( this is based on how corporations and big business can see this debate ) a person who applies for a job with a university degree is more likely to get the job than someone who does not have the degree there are many people who dont have degrees but have real experience due to working for years in a particular field and this can be more appreciated and valuable than someone with a degree but no experience in that field a person who joins a corporation straight out of University will generally be seen as someone learning and needs to still be mentored on some levels as they understandably lack practical experience Irrespective of things like paying off personal debt due to education loans the person who gets the job still pays taxes and has spending power and this benefits all of civil society. So yes I am not saying a degree will initially necessarily offer you personal financial benefit or even an improvement of your economic reality but just getting the job does help civil society around things like the tax base

The link below is a nice summary of this important decision http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887 http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/uk-citizens-opinion-leaving-european-union-brexit_us_57202862e4b0f309baef33dd I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed more, particularly by our members who live in the UK and EU. The vote is the 23 June 2016 ...very soon in other words I think it would a terrible economic decision for the UK to leave the EU and will also impact the EU on certain levels But I am interested in the personal views of people who live in the EU about what they think about the UK and its contribution towards the EU and then what do people living in the UK think?

This is a good video and makes a good point that I have often said This view that " Trump is going to make the USA great again " is vague and lacks substance around practical implementation. It will also have vastly different definitions to his supporters and what they think Trump can achieve when he becomes president

Fix'd. Now, now. We all know that he who controls the memes, controls the universe. I have mixed views on memes, they can be clever and offer insight but they can also be misunderstood and used as a way to avoid intellectual debate....so sometimes they are just an excuse to avoid unpacking real societal issues I dont think memes should ever been seen as a medium to convey automatic real information because the transfer of information generally needs to be discussed and analyzed..it can be nuanced and once someone explains something you can change your mind. How does a meme do any of that?

Although, to be fair, you're fairly unlikely to get a tangible return on your investment. I'm not with you, are you saying helping others get a better education is not a good investment? I doubt Sadie means she will get a personal benefit, like someone she indirectly helps get educated is going to give her money But an educated and skilled society is one of the requirements to achieve economic transformation, people with jobs contribute towards the tax base and are critical to the basic spending power of any society So this then benefits everyone..so yes its not tangible but its still an expected positive outcome of a progressive society Well, paraphrasing Constantine: "Let me tell you the secret of science... any **** could do it." Scientific progress is largely built on soul-crushing drudgery. Sure, some will be better at it than others, but if you educate someone decently enough, they will be able to contribute to some extent - the problem is that for any given person, this is going to happen exceedingly slowly, and will only have an exceedingly minuscule impact on the total body of knowledge accumulated by mankind. My point is that the likelihood of any given person funding the education of a world-changing genius whose work will then have a tangible benefit on their lives in return is astronomically small. Yes I agree, Scientific progress is much harder to measure in most countries that have functional governments that are doing there jobs and ensuring good governance But imagine in an impoverished African country where you dont even have electricity or running water in some parts of the country and now through science and the implementation of scientific progress suddenly electricity grids get created this is an immediate advantage of Scientific progress

Although, to be fair, you're fairly unlikely to get a tangible return on your investment. I'm not with you, are you saying helping others get a better education is not a good investment? I doubt Sadie means she will get a personal benefit, like someone she indirectly helps get educated is going to give her money But an educated and skilled society is one of the requirements to achieve economic transformation, people with jobs contribute towards the tax base and are critical to the basic spending power of any society So this then benefits everyone..so yes its not tangible but its still an expected positive outcome of a progressive society Education is such a long term investment that the likelyhood of feeling the effects of that investment before you hit retirement age is low. I think thats what he means. It depends on you what define as " positive return on education " So for example ( and I'm simplifying these points ) If you contribute towards getting getting 100 people educated at University and these people get jobs they contribute towards the tax base for government. When government allocates yearly budgets to municipalities it now has more money so your region could get more money that the local municipality needs to manage to improve the area. Suddenly the dirt road you use to go to work on everyday that has existed for the last 60 years get tarred and is immediately improved. This is a benefit you could see 6-8 years after the initial investment in the education of others If you help fund a persons costs to study medicine and become a GP and once they qualified they open a clinic in the rural area you live, where there has never been a clinic, this is a benefit you could see 8-10 after the initial investment But if your definition of " positive return on education " is government raising the minimum wage this could take much longer and is much more complex objective to achieve that is influenced by other factors outside of education

Although, to be fair, you're fairly unlikely to get a tangible return on your investment. I'm not with you, are you saying helping others get a better education is not a good investment? I doubt Sadie means she will get a personal benefit, like someone she indirectly helps get educated is going to give her money But an educated and skilled society is one of the requirements to achieve economic transformation, people with jobs contribute towards the tax base and are critical to the basic spending power of any society So this then benefits everyone..so yes its not tangible but its still an expected positive outcome of a progressive society