Luckmann

How come? I'd think that this would be the perfect game for the SoZ model. If anything, I think it was quite squandered in Storm of Zehir, what with the focus on multiple PC:s rather than deep or engrossing RPC:s. Okay then, can you describe how you would implement an SoZ-like system in Planescape Torment? Because that's the level of quality they're aiming to achieve here. The party consists of the Nameless One, Dak'kon, Fall-From-Grace, Mortimer Rictusgrin, Annah-of-the-Shadows, and Vhailor. You talk to an NPC from the Society of Sensations. The Nameless One, being the de facto leader of the party has all the important conversation options; the questions, the major interaction. The conversation isn't important or big enough to warrant interjections from Fall-From-Grace, but Morte interjects with some quip about titties. As you talk, you can talk with any of the other RPCs, as well as The Nameless One; even Vhailor. If they can't relate to the NPC you are talking to in any way whatsoever, they only have very basic conversation options, excepting if they qualify for - through ranks of Diplomacy, Bluff, whatever - special conversation options; but when you talk with Fall-From-Grace, you can opt to ask the Sensate in question some non-standard things that relates to Fall-From-Grace's relationship/membership of the Society of Sensations. If you talk with Morte, you will have the opportunity to comment on titties. In the same exact way you run into a Shadow Thief in Storm of Zehir that gives Belueth the Calm, herself a Shadow Thief, in which she has special conversation options. Just better, because you will actually have real characters in this game, not bare-bones shells.

How come? I'd think that this would be the perfect game for the SoZ model. If anything, I think it was quite squandered in Storm of Zehir, what with the focus on multiple PC:s rather than deep or engrossing RPC:s.

The only thing I don't want out of these is gold having weight. Although that would of course depend on the cost of things in the game, and the wealth system overall. But yeah, that would be a serious dray. " No displays for helper info such as skill thresholds, reputation modifers" I would even consider base in the game. Few things are as immersion-breaking as the game flat-out telling you that "No, you're missing a rank of diplomacy to pick this option" or "You have 50% to win this diplomacy option".

I am keeping my fingers crossed for the Storm of Zehir approach. I wasn't a fan of Storm of Zehir at all, but the dialogue system was just revolutionary-yet-obvious. All games should've been like Storm of Zehir, allowing you to speak through your RPC:s, with unique conversation options based on their skills and characters. Maybe for once we'll have a reason for diplomancer RPCs. A Shadow Thief should have bonus dialogue options when talking to Shadow Thieves, a Red Wizard of Thay should have it when talking to other Red Wizards of Thay. Add some butt-in banter, and I think we have a sweet spot.

I actually forgot to describe my favourite kind of character, which I would - of course - love if he would be achievable within the class system of Project Eternity. Arcane Archer/Arcane Trickster/Charlatan. Ranged weapons, bows preferably, on-the-fly enchantable arrows, with heavy magical utility spells, such as illusions, divinations, telekinetics, and so on. I just love sneaking around, using minor spells to augment myself or throw off my opponents, open locks or remove traps with magic. Heavy on the whole charming/diplomatic side, to excuse the wearing of flagrant wealth when I'm in town.

While I understand the sentiment, my experience with food mechanics is actually the opposite of urgency. You stock up on all the food you can carry at town, then use rations to get to the dungeon, then 1/3 of the dungeon is cleared you run low on food, now you HAVE to go back to town NOW or else run out of rations before you can get to a store, so you go back to town then restock and go back to the dungeon and now you have to walk back down to where you left off (hope monsters don't respawn) and so on. So while I understand in theory food mechanics make you go "We can't just stand around here - our food is going to run out!", my experience with them is that the instead make you go "Wait evil baddy, I need about 12 more days to go restock on food and return because I don't want to starve and die while stabbing your horde to death." While that's a fair point, making it hard to apply urgency to games that inherently doesn't have any (although they should); Why the hell would you only carry the bare minimum, or wait going back to town until you are practically starving? And if you only make it to 1/3 of the dungeon before you absolutely have to go back, going there straight from your last stock-up, then yeah, there is clearly something wrong with the system, because once you're back there, you're going to run into the exact same problem again, in the exact same spot. I've never, ever had what you describe happen in a game, though.

You had to create a new thread when there's already one literally on the first page, this very moment?

The difference in managing one character and managing six is miniscule in this regard. When one eats, everyone eats according to their needs. That's how I've always done it before, anyway. When the orc (high metabolism) needs to eat, you feed him two hams, which removes his Hunger entirely. By this time, your elf (low metabolism) doesn't need to eat, but you still feed him a bit of bread, to remove his hunger entirely, too. The odds that someone in your party will be starving while someone else in your party doesn't need to eat at all is exceedingly remote. if we are in a setting where food might be scarce then sure, it could be an interesting gameplay addition because it becomes a necessary goal to find food. That adds to the gameplay. If we are in a setting where we can walk back to town and buy food every time we need it, then all it does is force us to walk to town occasionally. That's tedious and adds absolutely nothing to the game. So I guess it depends on the way the game is designed. It prevents you from constantly sleeping/resting until you are fully healed and adds urgency for long-term or far-away exploration. "Forcing" you to walk back to town once in a while in an adventuring/roleplaying game.. makes perfect sense. Unless you're hunters, foragers or rangers, of course, in which case you should definitely be able to utilize their skills, incentivizing the use of such skills (and spending effort to improve them).

They were talking about in-engine cutscenes that take away control from the player. Oh, no, at least I wasn't.

As has been discussed time and time again; No, no, a thousand times no. Do not want. Do not care.

People saying that party management is needless micromanagement is to me like saying that combat is needless micromanagement; after all, why not just roll a dice to see if you pass the encounter? Hell, why have healthpoints if all you're going to do is to drink potions anyway? The difference in managing one character and managing six is miniscule in this regard. When one eats, everyone eats according to their needs. That's how I've always done it before, anyway. When the orc (high metabolism) needs to eat, you feed him two hams, which removes his Hunger entirely. By this time, your elf (low metabolism) doesn't need to eat, but you still feed him a bit of bread, to remove his hunger entirely, too. The odds that someone in your party will be starving while someone else in your party doesn't need to eat at all is exceedingly remote.

Been over this many times. I'd love "Hardcore". Preferably completely integrated into the game and not just something on the side like in Fallout: New Vegas, but a "mode" is better than nothing.

Am I the only person on this planet that likes the ambiguous ending of KOTOR2? On topic: No MMO style fetch 20 maguffins to accomplish x quests. Ambigious ending? The entire latter 1/5th of the game is a catastrophe of unfinished areas and loose ends. The very final ending, the confrontation with Kreia and the disappearance of the Exile was fine. But the "finale" of the game is just.. so.. gah.

Mask of the Betrayer, Knights of the Old Republic 2.. although to be fair, those endings weren't so much bad as they were unfinished.

So far, you've managed to descend into "racism!", trying make a dignified retreat by having the thread locked, and started making personal attacks. All you need to do now is call someone Hitler and you've hit rock-bottom when it comes to fails on an internet forum. Some LARPs may enforce aesthetics, but the end of it is that the vast majority doesn't. You run around in foam swords and ridiculous outfits, pretending to be Gandalf-interpretation #321. Most LARPs are not about roleplay, but about dress-up disconnect from any mechanical merit, which was the entire point I was making with my, albeit extreme, example. Funny mate, it was you who started with the personal attacks. I'm done with dealing with you since you clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are just regurgitating what you've heard from others without wanting to learn any different so bye!!! And now you can't even retreat with dignity. That's just sad. Like a child that wouldn't be believed when he said his dad was Superman, you take your toys and leave. Go home to your mom, she might believe your lies, but I don't think anyone that's read the thread will.

So far, you've managed to descend into "racism!", trying make a dignified retreat by having the thread locked, and started making personal attacks. All you need to do now is call someone Hitler and you've hit rock-bottom when it comes to fails on an internet forum. Some LARPs may enforce aesthetics, but the end of it is that the vast majority doesn't. You run around in foam swords and ridiculous outfits, pretending to be Gandalf-interpretation #321. Most LARPs are not about roleplay, but about dress-up disconnect from any mechanical merit, which was the entire point I was making with my, albeit extreme, example.

Really? I can only remember 2 that could possibly qualify, and that's the intro movies, and I'm not even sure I'd put that in the same category as modern "cinematic cutscenes". There were more than 2. There were atleast 5. Wait, what? Really? I have the vaguest memory of.. Was there a cutscene when you got the Suldenesselar(sp?) and Watcher's Keep? Oh, and right, when you went to Hell, too. And then one when you reached the Thone of Bhaal.. I think. And when you died. But honestly, at least all the Baldur's Gate/2 were extremely basic. I'll concede that they were there and that yeah, my memory probably betrayed me, and yes, they are technically "cinematic cutscenes", but I do not think that these basic scenery-scenes were what was being protested against. At least I hope not, because I like those. But yeah. Fair point, points to you.

I think we can all expect something like Baldur's Gate 2 or Neverwinter Nights 2. Or at least something along those lines, hopefully with a little bit more customizability (choice of temple or chapel, whether we want a barracks or a wizard's tower, etc). But no, nothing remotely like the Sims or Minecraft. C'mon. Let's be serious here. I'm not sure I'd even want that.

This. The abstraction of terms is common in literature; as long as the distinction and usage is explained, I do not see how any of you could be confused. LARP in this context is used as a pejorative for "playing pretend in a game, claiming it to be meaningful while the game mechanics do not react to anything you pretend to do in any way", which is in essence what LARP does. In a LARP, you can theoretically dress in a blue robe and pretend to be a Wizard of Thay. You can bonk someone on the head with your sword and pretend that you are throwing magic missile. It's a total disconnect between visuals and mechanics. How often do you see a LARP where two orcs look the same? Not very often. In tabletop you can create a kobold wizard of thay if you wanted, its whether the rules are enforced which in a good larp they will be. If I bonk someone on the head they take damage just like in tabletop. There are quite indepth game mechanics but its clear you have zero comprehension or knowledge of larp and so I'm going to quit here. Depends on whether we talk 3.5e or 4e. Because in 3.5e, no, you couldn't. The 4e doesn't count, since I was clearly referring to the Red Wizards of Thay from 3.5e, what with the allusion to the colour of the robes, something also not necessary in 4e. But it is clear that you have zero comprehension or knowledge of roleplaying games, so I'm going to quit here. Yet it is, frequently, and people generally understand what it means. The idea is that somebody is more interested in being their character (i.e. dress up, house, fake rules, etc) than playing the game. Except that it has no bearing on reality and untrue. It would be like refering to all people of a certain ethnicity as thieves because "people understand what it means"... Of course it has bearing on reality and isn't untrue. What you are having here is misunderstanding as of the meaning of words. The meaning of words lies in how they are used. If we all "understand what it means", whether we're referring to "LARP" or "Tattare" or "Roma", we all know what we are talking about. When there is any misunderstanding, we explain what we mean, with the power of language. This is not rocket science to anyone who has ever read any kind of book where definitions have to be explained (a vast amount of philosophy books spend 1/3 of the book just explaining the meaning of words and context, so you can understand the latter 2/3). If anyone is going to be insulted, it is you for not reading the thread, before you mouth off. Playing dress-up is not role-playing. The Black Hat of Mordor is black. The Jester's Ballsack is multi-coloured. Deal. With. It.

Really? I can only remember 2 that could possibly qualify, and that's the intro movies, and I'm not even sure I'd put that in the same category as modern "cinematic cutscenes". The game isn't based at all around DnD or DnD rules, so this fear really has no basis. As to why there's wider audiences.. well, I'd say that that is an issue, like most things, of availability and accessibility. After all, the audience is bigger for Mass Effect than for Baldur's Gate, too. It is always easier to reach a wide appeal than to make something out of quality.

Honestly though; As far as literary works, appreciation, etc; Isn't it the illusion that counts? When you're doing "new" things just to seem new, you've fallen into the trap of modernism and the increasingly baroque. I don't want elves, dwarves, and humans not because they're old or because they are inherently bad. I don't want them because I've grown increasingly bored with them. I don't remember my suggestions anymore, but assuming that I suggested, like, Thri-Kreen, Warforged, Dragonborn, Kobolds and Illithids, I don't want these because they are amazingly original. I want them because I like them, they don't get enough exposition, and I think that you could do genuinely interesting things by subverting their tropes rather than subverting, say, the dwarves, or create elven concept #2341 (Sadistic elves, no wait, that's drow, fascist elves, no wait, been done with blood elves; what about phaseshifting elves? No, wait, that's Fey. Dammit!). Once on 4chan /tg/, 'couple of years ago now, we created a community setting that I liked a lot; especially the dwarves. They were a mish-mash between Egyptian, Aztec and Mayan motifs, who travelled the world is massive flying city-temples, constructed of of the tops of mountains, on top of which they performed bloody sacrifices. Deathly afraid of the surface world, they considered the entirety of the earth unhallowed and unclean. At what point is a dwarf not a dwarf? Our orcs were obsessed with architecture, influenced by the Babylonian and Sumerian, trying to construct towers to the heavens, producing the finest engineers and architects of the realms. We all know the subverted races. We all know the traditional races. Why can't we take the non-traditional races - not necessarily unique ones - and toy with those for a bit? Tribal Thri-kreen with a multitude of insectoid subraces, inhabiting forests instead of deserts. Deeply religious warforged, turning to religion after losing their meaning in life, worshipping the Clockwork God of Logic (such as Primus, in DnD)? Lawful Neutral Paladins/Knights, anyone? Druidic or Fey Dragonborn that reveres nature, but keeps the highly inventive, industrious (and rebellious) kobolds under an iron (wooden?) heel of oppression? Illithids controlling a desert empire, living in pyramid-temples with jungle-like interiors, monopolizing all water, acknowledging no borders and claiming all humans as slaves by their very nature. I don't need unique. I just want something that hasn't been done to death. If I see another "underground <elf, gnome, halfling, dwarf> race" or another arboreal half-dragon vampire, I fear I might end up stabbing myself in the eyes. Addendum: I liked the Qunari... until they turned them into "lolitskindademons lol". I liked the Draenei... until they turned them into "lolitskindademons lol". ...I never liked the Pandaren, because it was a joke that was taken too far and then it all ended up just being goddamned retarded. But the idea of bear-men by itself.. I mean, it could be worse - at least it's not Wolfoids or Cathar.

This. The abstraction of terms is common in literature; as long as the distinction and usage is explained, I do not see how any of you could be confused. LARP in this context is used as a pejorative for "playing pretend in a game, claiming it to be meaningful while the game mechanics do not react to anything you pretend to do in any way", which is in essence what LARP does. In a LARP, you can theoretically dress in a blue robe and pretend to be a Wizard of Thay. You can bonk someone on the head with your sword and pretend that you are throwing magic missile. It's a total disconnect between visuals and mechanics. How often do you see a LARP where two orcs look the same? Not very often.

All of them.

I think that "Quest Markers" is a matter of utility and the way they're used. If someone says "I need to to find out what Burke is doing, he usually winds up at the black crow tavern after market for an ale before he goes home, I want you to follow him" and you ask "Where's the Black Crow?", I want a detailed description of where the Black Crow is, but once I have that, I do not mind at all having it put on my map as a marker. However, if someone says "I need to to find out how Burke is doing, he usually winds up in Cloakwood Forest after market for an moment of peace and quiet before he goes home, I want you to talk to him", I want a general goal marker placed on Cloakwood Forest; not an arrow pointing straight at his goddamned corpse hidden under a tree or dumped in a ditch. The only game I have known to do this in a good fashion is, as weird as it might sound, an MMO; Warhammer Online. Sometimes it showed a specific marker for a specific person on place when it was very clear where it was, or when you had gotten good directions. But most of the time, it only highlighted a general area on the map, basically saying "Roughly in this area". For the other end of the spectrum, we have the horror stories of ARPGs like Oblivion or Skyrim; "Fetch me something somewhere" and then you get a pointer and a compass straight to something hidden under a bridge, under water, under a ruin, in a box. Above all else, that rubbish must be avoided at all costs. Dragon Age: Origins were practically as bad as that, just not as flagrantly. I hates it.

This. So much this. All of this. Tired of soapboxes. Tired of minigames. Tired of blatant, easy min-maxing. Tired of full voiceovers crippling the scripts. Tired of goddamned Minscs, even though there really only was one, he still haunts me for taking an NPC spot that could've been Xan, Kivan, Eldoth, Garrick, Kagain, Ajantis, Tiax or even goddamned Yeslick's. I was forever robbed of all my favourite Baldur's Gate party compositions in Baldur's Gate II. No elven hegemony. No dwarven warband. No bard troupe. No grandeur noblesse. Instead I got a mentally handicapped uninteresting one-dimensional halfwit, a pathethic & deficient & wingless & whiny avariel, an annoying half-elf and an annoying gnome.