Hell Kitty

I say lots of things, they can't all be trusted. Anyway, what I first said was "Deus Ex is not an FPS/RPG hybrid, it's an action/adventure with RPG elements" after that it all got confusing. As for discussion/debate/argument, it's all the same damn thing. Soon evolve? No.

The internet always needs more sarcasm.

If Johnny and Jane Christian are taught the theory of evolution, they may see that it is incompatible with traditional Christian beliefs which will cause them to turn away from the church, convert to atheism, and the next thing you know they'll be turning gay and performing abortions on one another. The answer to this problem? Fool Johnny and Jane into thinking the "theory" of creati.. I mean intelligent design is just as valid as the theory of evolution, and considering it's the only one compatible with their religion it must be true. God's in his heaven, all's right with the world.

No I didn't. I've never claimed that DX has no shooter elements, my problem is that FPS/RPG is an unsatisfactory genre classification as it ignores certain elements in favour of others. Warren Spector calls his own game an Immersive Sim/RPG/FPS/Adventure, but apparently Battlewookie vision shows only the RPG/FPS parts. As for the reticule, if a first person RPG allows me to target specific body parts, then a reticule would be pretty handy. @ Di: OMG! *sloppy kisses*

A limited control system doesn't make for simple games any more than a keyboard + mouse makes a game complex. The PS2 controller has 16 buttons and two analogue sticks, and the buttons are analogue allowing for multiple functionality. Current and next gen console controllers has similar amounts of buttons and functionality, so controllers aren't quite as limited as people assume.

My comment about tranquilizing Howard Strong was in reply to the comment that you had to kill 3 people, which is wrong, as you only have to render unconcious at least one of them. Of course, whether or not there is any shooting in Deus Ex was never the issue, rather it's that the core gameplay component is shooting. Since when do most people (outside of this thread) refer to Deus Ex as a shooter? Eidos classifies Deus Ex as an RPG/Action. Mobygames lists it as an Action/Adventure/Role-Playing(RPG). Gamespot lists it as Sci-Fi Action Adventure. Eidos lists the Thief games as Adventure. Mobygames lists Thief 1 & 2 as Action, and Thief Gold as Action/Strategy. My Thief 1 & 2 box call them First-Person Sneakers, my Thief 3 box calls it Stealth/Action. Gamespot lists Thief 1 as Action, Thief 2 as Sci-Fi Action Adventure and Thief 3 as Fantasy Action Adventure. Warren spector himself refers to it, in his Gamasutra Post-Mortem (registration required) as a genre-busting game -- part immersive simulation, part role-playing game, part first-person shooter, part adventure game. To say that it isn't a shooter does not mean it contains no shooter elements, it simply means that the shooter elements are only one part of a greater whole, as opposed to the primary component.

And some offer ways beyond shooting and such. If a game offers core gameplay beyond shooting then it's not a shooter. There is shooting in lots of games. Shooting doesn't make the game a shooter, unless it makes up the core gameplay. If it's just one part of a greater whole, or entirely (or mostly avoidable) then it's not a shooter. Take Omikron: The Nomad Soul, for instance. It feature first-person shooting, much more required than in DX, but this isn't enough to classify it as a shooter as it also features one on one melee fighting and adventure gaming, which makes it an anction/adventure. If it had stats, it's be an action/adventure with RPG elements, just like DX. Even if a game features better first-person firearms based combat than any FPS on the market, it doesn't make that game an FPS unless that combat is the core gameplay component. As I've already said, I see DX as an action/adventure with RPG elements (and DX:IW as just an action/adventure). The reason I say it has RPG elements, rather than classifying it as an RPG hyrid, it because, as you said before, you don't have to upgrade your skills. It'd make for a more difficult game, but it'd doable. I'm not even sure what you're asking me here. For a game to be considered an RPG or (whatever)/RPG hybrid, the stats/skills need to play a vital role. The player is required to "level up" in order to proceed, otherwise they won't be powerful enough to carry on in the game. Stealth is not an RPG element. I consider stealth part of the action genre, though I feel it kinda fits uncomfortably, especially when you use stealth to avoid action, or more specifically, combat. I consider Deus Ex an action/adventure with RPG elements because: Action: This comes in the form of dealing with enemies. You can do so in typical shooter fashion, though you have the option of using non-lethal means as well as lethal, when shooters typically only offer lethal. You can also use stealth, either to avoid your enemy or incapacitate them (again, lethal or non-lethal options. Adventure: This comes in the form of exploration and dealing with NPCs, and doing all the little asks like hacking and lockpicking and using computers. Adventure elements typically get dumped in with RPG elements. RPG elements: The stats/skills, which is the one thing that seperates the RPG genre from all other genres, though RPG elements are now common in pretty much every type of game out there.

Shooters don't have to be mindless, but the core gameplay component of a shooter does have to be combat in the form of shooting. Many games offer at least one melee weapon like a knife, sword or crowbar, or punching and kicking as in F.E.A.R., or unusual weapons like the gravity gun in Half-Life 2, but all feature firearms as the primary weapons. Some, like F.E.A.R and Halo or Far Cry allow you to carry a limited selection of weapons. Many contain sections which require the use of a vehicle like in Half-Life 2 or Nolf, or maybe an "on-rails" sequence like shooting from the helicopter in SiN, or optional vehicles like those in Far Cry. Some have limited stealth levels that fail if you are seen, or even enemies that use stealth against you, like those in Far Cry. Some offer more open levels like Far Cry, that occasional allow you to avoid or sneak up on groups of enemies, some have gimmicks like Doom 3 which forces you to choose between flashlight and weapon... But all shooters have one thing in common, the primary gameplay component involves moving from point-to-point shootin' ****. You don't have any options in this regard, if you don't want to shoot stuff your only option is not playing. If this is not the primary focus of a game then it is not a shooter. Having to shoot only one, or even a handful or enemies over the course of a game that allows to to otherwise avoid combat doesn't suddenly turn a game into a shooter. If a game features shooting as just one of many elements, you don't broaden the term "shooter" to include a whole bunch of non-shooting related stuff, you put the game into one of the many other genre catagories available.

***THIS POST CONTAINS SPOILS OMG!!!*** Actually, you can tranquilise Strong, so you only need to kill Gunther and Navarre, and you don't need to engage them in combat either, you can learn their killphrases and kill them simply by choosing a dialogue option. Of course none of this matters because needing to kill 2 people over the course of the game doesn't make DX a shooter any more than San Andreas is a dance simulator because of those annoying mini-games you have to do.

No it's not, Thief is an action/adventure. First-Person-Shooter is a sub-genre and part of the action genre. FPS games are always action games, but action games can only be called FPS if they fit a narrow criteria, which the Thief series, DX series or System Shock series do not meet.

An optional method, which isn't true of shooters, as a shooter that allows you to complete the game without ever shooting can't be called a shooter, any more than a game that allows you to avoid stealth completely can be called a stealth game. I classify the exploration and interaction with characters and environment as the adventure part, and the combat (lethal or non-lethal) and stealth to sneak up on or avoid the enemy as the action part, which is why I refer to it as an action/adventure. I probably just didn't make myself clear on that one, I'm saying that Max Payne is not a FPS, and I used it because of seen it referred to as one many times on different forums, and it makes no sense to refer to it as an FPS because it doesn't feature a first-person mode.

I'm not claiming that DX has nothing to do with FPS games, clearly any game that features first-person real-time combat has some similarity to shooters, the issue here is whether a game that allows you to avoid combat can be classified as an FPS(hybrid or otherwise). And what do you mean by "an all too literal interpretation of the acronym", how else is a shooter to be defined as a game about shooting? The problem isn't a too literal interpretation of the word "shooter", a genre that doesn't realy offer much room for interpretation, it's that people are often much too vague, like when games like Morrowind are referred to as FPS/RPG, or when game like Max Payne get referred to as FPS.

Gah, you're more annoying that Volourn. This isn't about "winning" an argument, if people want to insist that DX is a First-Person-Shooter, hybrid or otherwise, I'm going to point out why they are wrong and ask why they believe otherwise. Your refusal to offer any sort of rational arguement can only lead me to assume you are arguing purely for the sake of being annoying.

It's rather difficult to argue against you when you've stopped offering any sort of argument. I ask again: What do you think a shooter is if not a game in which the primary gamplay component is firearms based combat?

splitting hairs there. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> that was a mistake, which I have corrected in my edited post. That is, the core gameplay component must revolve around firearms based combat, ie "shooting", but that doesn't mean it can feature a melee weapon or two, a driving level or token stealth level. A game is defined by it's primary gameplay component.

Most FPS give the player a melee weapon, I never said a FPS could only feature shooting, only that it must be the primary gameplay component. For example, If a 20 level shooter features one driving level, that isn't enough for it to be considered a shooter/racing hybrid, just as a shooting level in a 20 level racing game isn't enough for it to be considered an FPS.

You are an idiot. One way the game can be played does not determine it's genre, all the ways determine it. DX is not simply a shooter and it is not simply a stealth game, they are merely two ways the game can be played. The fact that Fallout can apparently be played without combat by using diplomacy skills does not mean Fallout is an adventure game.

This comment doesn't even make any sense as a comparison to mine. What on earth do you think a shooter is if not a game revolving around shooting?

Yes it does. A game that doesn't require you to shoot is not a shooter.

FPS does NOT mean First Person it means First Person SHOOTER. For a game to be a Shooter, hybrid or otherwise, the gameplay need to revolve around shooting, which the gameplay in Deus Ex doesn't.

Eh? The fact that the gameplay in Deus Ex doesn't revolve around firearms based combat as is necessary in a Shooter negates anyone calling it an FPS, hybrid or otherwise.

The Legacy - Realms Of Terror on DOSBox.

sorry, but it played like a fps/rpg hybrid to me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How you play it is irrelevant, what matters is how everyone can play it. Blowing the crapola outta everything is the only way shooters are generally played, whereas in Deus Ex it's just one way to play. A game that allows you to play through the entire thing relying on stealth and avoiding combat is not a shooter.

Deus Ex is not an FPS/RPG hybrid, it's an action/adventure with RPG elements. Contrary to popular opinion a first person perspective and use of firearms does not make a game an FPS (I remember when the first video of Bloodlnes was released people commenting, "Oh, it's an FPS). A shooter, funnily enough, revolves around shootin' ****, and both Deus Ex games, which allow you avoid shooting for the majority of tha game cannot be classified as shooters any more than Far Cry can be classified as a driving game because it offers the occasionaly bit of vehicular action. Deus Ex hasn't done a damn thing for the FPS genre, which is still pretty much the same as it has always been. Some FPS have more of a focus on story while for others the story is just an excuse, some feature limited stealth sections, many now feature a limited weapon selection making you think about what you carry, and NOLF2 even had you earn experience and improve different skills, but the FPS genre is pretty much the same as it always was, with only minor changes here and there. Being one of my favourite games I wish more games were inspired by it but it's simply not the case. Boiling Point is about the only game that really owes anything to Deus Ex. Thief was clearly an inspiration on Splinter Cell (though Sc was made to rival MGS), but other stealth games (such as Stolen and Cold War) are inspired more by Splinter Cell.

Actually no, it was crap by Xbox standards also. I used to think the Xbox limited the level sizes, but according to comments made by people messing about with the Thief 3 editor, it seems the Flesh Engine (Ion Storm's modified Unreal Engine) simply can't handle levels of a certain size. Even if they worked only on a PC version, the crappy engine and lame design issues would have left us with an inferior game.