abot

I too think first encounter with megabosses blind+ironman = certain restart, anyway here comes: dorudugan - bathe in fire auranic - don't fear a crush on her belranga - wait for adra cannon

Soft winds of death is one of the best level 1/not changeable aggressive chants that any build can use all the game Ancient memory is always good too, I choose it as my not-aggressive chant (you need one not aggressive chant to more easily stay in stealth when needed) and this one can heal Vela a little too Stumbling words: great against any enemy not immune to interrupts, there is nothing as good to clear enemy concentration automatically. Apart "Their Champion Braved the Horde Alone" invocation, it shines if you have any way to get energized (e.g. from Least Unstable Coil). But it is not bad even just using it with the ancient weapons special attacks (so they can have +10 accuracy and interrupt more easily) Many lives IMO is what makes ultimate challenge builds not based on being not detectable/unkillable possible, a troubadour can control the battlefield with it + other summons especially if you couple it with the grave calling sabre paralyzing chillfog These are the 4 chants I always get

> I wonder if is possible to solo with this Crusader, what do you think? hard to say without more details on difficulty level/magran fires options

best thing I've found for this is to disable the AI completely and use SHIFT+click to chain abilities commands, you gain a lot of time this way. Pretty worth, as the abilities are great, with a beckoner maybe try controlling half of the summons this way and keep the rest with normal click attack

... aaand in the meantime, for all us ultimate cheesers, I found another one I was not aware LOL Muse of Mystery from Robes of the Weyc: you can prolong it and enjoy a troubadour new phrase every 2 sec

Wahai Poraga Counterattack seems to stay for infinity after several battles I think I finally found a better/reliable strategy for the battle with the Beast of Winter: using the spider's empress mandibles you get from Belranga on Vela petrifies her long enough to be able to jump with the bounding boots and have enough time to end the conversation/start the battle before Vela manages to run there, and without Vela around the fight is much easier, works better than a scroll of binding web [EDIT] a simpler alternative is to start the conversation using the shadow form from the assassin boots, this way you don't go out of stealth when out of dialogue and you can manage to sneak with Vela to the left of the screen and better control the battle. But, as we are cheating anyway, better to keep Vela completely out of the battlefield (she stays at the other side of the chasm) using the mandibles+bounding boots What I noticed is not staying for me is the Entropy Shield from the Chromoprismatic Quarterstaff, even after save/load it always disappears as soon as I have no more the staff equipped, while the Elemental Induction stays. If I keep the staff equipped I think Entropy Shield could be reset/restarted first time you are hit, so meh

I triggered (hitting Vela) and prolonged it out of combat the usual way (swapping strand of favor/cabalist gambeson) so I think it should work also if triggered in standard combat

I found another interesting one I was not aware of that you can easily prolong: Wahai Poraga Counterattack For 2.0 sec after launching attack, return 25% incoming Melee Damage to attacker as Raw Damage Basically it may work like a permanent pain-link on yourself, could be great especially for classes playing with barring death door on and planning to get a lot of damage. I've not tested it in a fight yet but it seems to survive save/load cycles so it should work

IIRC when I tried those were standard not stacking inspirations. Unless they degrade after save/load but I don't think so. It could be the other chant is special as they had to implement it differently to allow the mechanic of prolonging it by kills during fight, and didn't bother/forgot to fix it

about the drug stacking order: it could be there is more than one possible order minimizing the number of drugs you have to try, deadeye is the one drug probably conflicting with anything else so keeping it last seems to make sense, maybe there are other combinations working, heck now I am not even sure it can't be something like the galawain challenge giving different beasts powers according to a random initial game seed Each Kill Fed His Fury chant is great also because it is very easy to prolong, you can use it out of combat and it has long starting duration

I'm not saying you can't use a different order and make all drugs effects work with enough tries, I'm saying that the specific order is going to minimize the number of drugs eaten (exactly ONE per type of drug) and the number of save/reload cycles needed for it to work (ONE cycle per drug), and I still think this is not by chance and that this information is useful for a real ultimate run when not spamming save/reload might be required.

In my tests drugs stack without canceling each other only in that order, else you have to look for another eat/save/load eat another not canceling drug combination. This is not by chance IMO, it is like the book puzzles LOL. I doubt that spamming save/load/try a new drug combination would be accepted in a ultimate run, but probably eating the proper not conflicting drug only at the start of the session would, that's why I think the proper order is important Each Kill Fed His Fury is working for me currently with all inspirations from the Least Unstable Coil, it keeps working after not having the chant any more . Dunno if order may make a difference, but I got the inspirations from the coil first, then tried the chant [EDIT] oh, also Entropy Shield from Chromoprismatic Quarterstaff (1% x 5 damage reduction + metaphysic, about 11% total with 13 metaphysic) can be prolonged/works but only as long as you have the staff in a weapon slot (does not need to be the active one), if you remove the staff from player slots it needs triggering/prolonging again, good mostly for builds able to use the staff from martial abilities or as a +1 power level staff [EDIT2] Oh, I read your post that entropy shield resets when it so meh, probably not worth the hassle

I recently realized that Each Kill Fed His Fury chant (+5 might, constitution, resolve) stacks with all inspirations and can be prolonged out of combat, worth investing a couple respecs for it Upgrade to best drugs order so far for stacking after prolong/save/reload minimizing overlapping/canceling each other: 1 Coral Snuff (+10% Action Speed, +5 Deflection, +5 Reflex for 180 sec) 2 Mouth Char (-5% Damage taken, +15% Damage with weapons for 180 sec) 3 Ripple Sponge (+3 Perception, Resolve, and Intellect for 180 sec) 4 Svef (+3 Perception, -25% Hostile effect duration, Resistance to Intellect, Perception, and Resolve afflictions for 180 sec) 5 Whiteleaf (Concentration, +10 Will, +1 Health restored per 3 sec for 180 sec) 6 Taru Turu Chew (+3 Constitution, Might, and Dexterity for 180 sec) 7 Deadeye (+5 Accuracy, 15% chance to Interrupt on scoring Hit for 180 sec) The more I find this kind of things, the more I believe they are not like this by chance...

I think getting Ancient Memory is good as some healing is always of use and it may be almost needed in certain situations (e.g. if you try the ultimate with such a build there are fights when having AM automatically heal Vela makes you able to concentrate more easily on killing enemies), but if you prefer some other chant, the important thing IMO is it has to be at least one non-aggressive chant to be able to stay stealthed more easily, e.g. Come Come Soft Winds is probably best 1st chant you can get at level 1 but aggressive and this can make you/Vela/companions to be detected and exit from stealth

You want both Thrice and Thunder Rolled, + both upgrades. I'd give priority to Thunder Rolled because coupled with Mental Binding from cipher it will not only do damage but cover most of your control against different resistances/immunities. Ancient memory is good as the (at least one) not-aggressive chant you need to be sure to not come out of stealth when you want to stay stealthed near the enemy (e.g. when you keep summoning and pain-linking your summons from stealth also with 85% less spell recovery time) The problem with chanter/cipher build is you have so many good spells but can't have all of them, so you may want to respec as you progress e.g. Eye Strike, Whispers are good, but Eye Strike can be easily replaced with cinder bombs and from Grave Calling sabre chillfog later, and Whisper can be replaced with Puppet Master at higher level. other must-have for cipher: mind blades, secret horrors, borrowed instinct, ringleader, disintegration must-have for cipher+chanter: pain link, tactical meld if solo: you may consider screaming souls to use the ancestor's memory slot, it works great with both chanter called to his bidding/many lives pass (when you reach proper level, many lives pass + paralyzing enemy only chilling fog from grave calling is OP) re: summon dragon IMO with a troubadour most of the times it is better to have 3 summons active, with brisk recitation you will be able to keep summons always up and fresh with just about 16 intelligence, no need to have a damage sponge when you can just resummon

IIRC The Complete Self is not so good but hey, I think that summons + pain link is the most powerful troubadour/cipher synergy

ok I managed to make deadeye work, probably a simple way is to try it last so e.g. a detailed working sequence: coral snuff, (prolong a little bit), save, reloadripple sponge, (prolong a little bit), save, reloadsvef, (prolong a little bit), save, reloadtaru turu chew, (prolong a little bit), save, reload .... deadeye, (prolong a little bit), save, reload [EDIT] trying to add mouth char too after deadeye did not work though, while adding mouth char first and deadeye after did so TL;DR add deadye LAST and it should work with the rest, but if you add something alse after deadye it may not work, at least for me

some more: antidote: immunity from poison attacks You can prolong a drug effect (not sure, but in my tests a different drug effect will overwrite the previous one so no more than one drug effect at once) [EDIT] good news! some drugs overlap/cannot be prolonged, many work though, tested working combinations that stack (after save/reload) so far: coral snuff (+15% action speed, +5 deflection, +5 reflex), ripple sponge (+3 per, +3 res, +3 int) svef (+3 perception, -25% hostile eff. duration, resistance to int, per, res afflictions), taru turu chew (+3 const, +3 might, +3 dex) I think the problem is with those indirectly increasing the same stuff, e.g. deadeye (+5 accuracy +15 interrupt) conflicts with riple sponge (+3 per, +3 res, +3 int ---> + 3 accuracy)

Thanks, list updated! > Darkest before dawn is not risky at all unless you have 3 injuries, it will just knock you out if you overdo self dmg I mean risky as it may give you an unwanted injury, not just as being able to kill you, usually I don't feel the need to have one injury (with pros and cons) until battles where it is convenient to have some injury fueled item (e.g. Dorudugan battle + cape to heal with fire damage) and I have the item available About waiting to apply healing/defense buffs to player before getting maximized Deltro's lash, I guess it may depend on play style/build, if your build makes early fights possible/has less easy ways to get electric self-damage you may prefer to get less final electric damage but more healing/defense sooner >For reforge the flesh you will get permanent recovery... Wow, lots of inconveniences for this. Personally I feel this one is a little too much trouble/never used it, also from my point of view not reaching full 100% damage resistance while still powerful enough to have chances to finish the ultimate challenge in time makes me feel a little less cheesy

thanks, list updated

useful items primarily for no priest subclass/no pure wizard builds using item switching to prolong beneficial effect duration out of combat ( strand of favor, cabalist's gambeson arcane extension, ooblit pet...), please add to the list if you find relevant missing things. Note: I've just discovered so far the faster way to prolong the effects in my experience: if you have both strand of favor and cabalist's gambeson, equip both of them, than place an armor and a necklace in player inventory, click e.g. the necklace, hover on the armor (or vice-versa), double click; this way one double click will swap both necklace and armor slots, doubling the swap speed Note: a way to trigger watcher blooded state out of combat is using double necklace of fireballs on self, just pay attention when Vela is moving around (you can have double necklace of fireballs from dunnage+neketaka vendors so you can use it soon with cabalist's gambeson from arkemyr's vault). You can use also double Missile Gloves (Crookspur + Deck of Many Things vendors), but those may come later depending on your path any unguent can be easily prolonged for +2 skill Arcanist's Balm (+2 Alchemy, +2 Arcana, +2 Explosives) Blessed Incense (+2 History, +2 Insight, +2 Metaphysics, +2 Religion) Oil of Allure (+2 Bluff, +2 Diplomacy, +2 Intimidate, +2 Streetwise) Thief's Putty (+2 Mechanics, +2 Sleight of Hand, +2 Stealth) Unguent of Animalism (+2 Athletics, +2 Survival) Antidote Immunity to Poison attacks for 30 sec Aply the drug, prolong a little bit, save, reload. Just be sure to apply Deadeye LAST as it seems to be the one giving problems to the rest. Coral Snuff (+10% Action Speed, +5 Deflection, +5 Reflex for 180 sec) Mouth Char (-5% Damage taken, +15% Damage with weapons for 180 sec) Ripple Sponge (+3 Perception, Resolve, and Intellect for 180 sec) Svef (+3 Perception, -25% Hostile effect duration, Resistance to Intellect, Perception, and Resolve afflictions for 180 sec) Taru Turu Chew (+3 Constitution, Might, and Dexterity for 180 sec) Whiteleaf (Concentration, +10 Will, +1 Health restored per 3 sec for 180 sec) Deadeye (+5 Accuracy, 15% chance to Interrupt on scoring Hit for 180 sec) APPLY LAST I think when trying the ultimate to submit it to the developers, is better not to spam save, reload (there is a chance it could be not accepted), so maybe better to apply 1 drug at a time/once before exiting the game session Amra battle axe with Tempered Fury enchantment, Frenzy without deflection penalty, 25% chance on kill. triggers with barrels, ranger pet or blight from magran's favor belt bardatto's luxury death and taxes: hardy on unconscious ally, not hard to trigger on combat and can be prolonged out of combat as it lasts long bardatto's luxury grace: not sure but in theory you could be able to prolong the +3 health per 6 sec, harder though as starting duration is very low chromoprismatic quarterstaff elemental induction (+15% Damage for 10.0 sec when hit with Acid / Fire / Frost / Electricity attacks), e.g. use necklace of fireballs to trigger death's maw death runes? (within 5m of a killed enemy grants -15% incoming damage for 10 sec) not tested yet, may be not so easy to prolong Death's runes can't be extended, it's a temporary aura ON the corpses, similar to cipher effects on foe devil of caroc breastplate devil's due +2 health restored per 3.0 sec for 6.0 sec on critical hit with weapons (hit vela) griffin's blade loyal companion: steadfast on blooded, not so easy to prolong permanently (gets overriden by spells giving the same effect) but useful as alternative to no pity for the lost watcher ability least unstable coil Empowered Being (all lvl3 inspirations, however like all inspirations buffs if you're hit by afflictions your inspirations will degrade if you're not immune from afflictions. if you are immune it will not be overwritten unless you use it again. Also if you unequip, save, reload the buff will be saved with a different name and no more overwritten but it may weaken some effects of the inspirations like robust) Less/Least Unstable Coil Spirit Siphon (15% action speed, stacks with Tempered Fury from Amra and Bolting Strikes from Lord Darryn's Voulge) Lord Darryn's Voulge Bolting Strikes (10% chance on hit to get Quick for 10.0 sec, 15% Damage dealt as Shock with weapons for 10.0 sec) Lover's Embrace dagger: Frenzy (25% action speed, -10 deflection, Strong, Fit for 15 sec) from Lover's Quarrel on female target enchant, get it by critting Vela (more safely with a shield equipped) necklace of the harvest moon midnight wish??? (Friendly AoE: +8 health, +10 defenses for 15.0 sec per 3.0 sec, not tested yet but I doubt it works) necklace of the harvest moon yearly reap -5% Recovery Time for 6.0 sec on crit), hit vela with blunderbuss protective eothasian charm darkest before dawn (+5 health per 3.0 sec over 12 sec, damage reduced by -25% for 12 sec on near death), risky but good to prolong, you need to sleep once to recharge it though) resounding call call to arms (Destroying a destructible grants tenacious 12.0 sec), not super easy to prolong but doable and definitely great to have scordeo's edge adaptive (+2 Accuracy with all weapons for 30.0 sec on scoring Hit, stacks 10 times, easy to prolong as long lasting, stacks with blade cascade/highwayman) scordeo's edge blade cascade (ignore recovery for 5.0 sec on scoring hit, use it on vela) Scordeo's Edge Highwayman (20acc with ranged weapons) scordeo's trophy opening barrage (unlimited stacking -5% recovery time), you can get very good recovery time just with this one before getting scordeo's edge serpent crown serpent's strike +10 Accuracy (maybe also -25% Recovery Time?) for 15s when critically hit Slippers of the Assassin Boots Shadow Form (invisible on kill, trigger it killing barrels. Reported working (thanks Raven Darkholme) with double clicking slippers from player inventory too, but so far not working this way for Kaylon and me so it may be related to specific build/setup) [EDIT] ok confirmed I managed to get it working after save/reload: on reload you look transparent but the Shadow Form is no more working until you double click the slippers from player inventory, then it is applied again but you need to prolong it from scratch in my experience so it may be a little tedious but working The Maker's Own Power belt reforge the flesh 10hp/3sec -85% dmg, paralyze can be worked around (blade cascade on, trigger reforge and extend it, if you knocked yourself out you will stand up and won't be paralyzed, you may still need to switch weapon, save, reload and switch weapon again to get rid of paralyze) unstable soul essence bomb (+6 Health Restored per 6.0 sec for 12.0 sec) wahai poraga at blades reach -20% Melee Damage Received for 2.0 sec on launching attack (hit vela) weyc's wand attuned channel (after empowering an ability, gain +3 Power Level for 20 sec, confirmed) Whispers from the Depths Grasping Mysteries: 30% chance on scoring Kill to gain Acute (+5 Intellect, +1 All Power Levels) for 8.0 sec

> I'm quite surprised I don't see Killers Froze Stiff and Ben Fidel's Neck in that list I prefer mental binding (until chilling fog is available) for paralyze from psion and thunder rolled for stun from chanter so it is less likely to be out of fuel for both of them if needed, and also usually I can cast faster from psion than from troubadour because i like to have some controllable summons always up as meat shield/damage/casting target etc so part of troubadour resources go there More or less the same for ben fidel vs secret horrors (I guess you could get it instead of something else e.g. Screaming Souls, and invest the extra slot to get the upgrade to ben fidel so you can aim for the -10 defense) , but all in all it is a matter of taste/playstyle, both classes have spells able to cover similar situations so you can choose, the only problem is there are too many good spells and you can't get all of them [EDIT] also I think especially with the ultimate bosses respec helps a lot adapting to the situation so you may want this or that ability at a certain time > Cap of the Laughingstock (sometimes) to lower enemies defenses by -10 without any attack roll - and combined with Helm of the White Void Yeah, the cap helps a lot with high defense enemies, the helm is just great and the helm slot is the reason why all in all I think human > death godlike. By the way one of the most underestimated helmets IMO is horns of the bleak mother, it's a terrific one for the price

> The only time cipher really shines is if you multiclass it with perfect matches like chanter, ranger wizard or priest Well, that's 4 classes to combine with, this "the only time" concept seems good enough for me. Assuming no strand of favor cheese is used, IMO cipher can still be one of best classes for multi (as showed clearing the dig site, gorecci street etc), obviously synergies/what kind of cipher subclass is better varies with the other class I think the problem here is you are measuring class/class combination power mostly with damage per second, I am measuring it with ability to overcome challenges (with/without cheese) in longer times using tactics/synergy with other classes Single class solo no cheese, yes, I may agree there are probably better classes (single class blood mage on top, maybe monk but I have not enough experience with monks) than single class cipher as cipher needs synergy to shine, so multiclass or party. [EDIT] @dgray62 about a mystic class, I've been impressed by Yue Dai Priest of Skaen/Ascendant build used for the ultimate, once you get SOT+BDD+Scordeo+Brilliant+Ascended spells like Mind Blades become another thing, maybe I'd use human instead of death godlike, less powerful probably but easier to survive if your reflexes (I mean the real ones, not player stat) are not top notch

I think something that manages to kill Gorecci street thugs at maximum difficulty solo without strand of favor cheese is not so bad after all, no? Obviously the summons are doing most of the work, but pain link helps [EDIT] not even pain link, I think just Valorous Echoes works, for clearing the Dig Site too

well, it is normally a pure-caster build (with the exceptions of some hard-to-penetrate megabosses with which you may prefer to use monastic unarmed training fists) centered on controlling the battle field with always-up summons with brisk recitation and always recharging chants/spells, summing the summons damage with the cipher spells control and damage (as controllable summons make you able to use a lot of spells targeting them) while possibly keeping player (and Vela if you play with Hylea challenge) away from damage Basically you try to start from stealth placing a trap/a bomb, keep stealth at least until your perma-summons are up, then according to enemy difficulty you keep the summons up from stealth and improve them with fast casting of things like pain link (25% always hit damage back), lately Tactical Meld. If the enemy is not super tough/risky you can wait to have high focus and then go out of stealth and spam cipher spells ascendant style You have so many good spells you can try it's hard to choose, but as the level 1 is the most difficult as you can't respec it, I'd say level 1: Psion: Soul Shock, Troubadour: The Thunder Rolled reason for not getting Whisper of Treason from the start: at a certain point/focus level you may (or not) want to replace Whisper of Treason (pros: cheap) with Puppet Master (not so cheap, but better) The Thunder Rolled is a great control/debuff spell targeting reflex and it even does decent damage, it can get +15 accuracy with the update so it remains always good Then if e.g. you want to try the starting cave you can temporarily get If their Bones skeletons summon to attack the corrosive bats and the rest while you use soul shock for damage. after that, you may want to respec the skeletons with something else, personally I love the wurms, they are the summons I use most until the animated weapons are available Sasha's scimitar is good, least unstable coil is good but the most OP synergy is Grave Calling sabre + Chilling Grave + Grave Bound + Many Lives Pass By stream of skeletons, whenever you kill a skeleton you generate a paralyzing enemy only chill fog. When you have them your build gets 100% more control and 50% more damage other interesting abilities for next levels: For Troubadour: Thrice Was She Wronged + Her Revenge Swept, Its Crash Could Not Be Denied (more reliable stuns), Gernisc Slew the Beast (3 summons, always good with fire-sensible enemies, fast on swamp too, sturdy enough to survive a lot and not so armored to avoid being critted so good for pain link, especially with engaging enemies), (Oh, But Knock Not on the Door of Urdel and Gurdel for things not damaged by wurms/ancient weapons) , Called to His Bidding, the Ancient Instruments of Death for anything else, Eld Nary chants: Come, Come Soft Winds of Death, Thick Grew Their Tongues, maybe Ancient Memory in some rough situations (e.g. The Oratory of Wael to heal Vela from the moving ray while you are busy killing things), Many Lives Pass By (this one is OP) For Psion: Whisper of Treason/Puppet Master, (maybe Valorous Echoes too but only until you get Pain Link, maybe Eyestrike but cinder bombs are cheap and then you will probably get the chilling fog), Psychovampiric Shield (this one is good for a little extra deflection on start, less enemy deflection and lowered will to be able to land borrowed instinct on tough enemies), Mind Blades (great at middle/high level for super fast/easy spam casting on >= 2 enemies), Pain Link, Secret Horrors (control+lowering defenses), Mental Binding (covering paralyze until you get the Grave Calling synergy up), Borrowed Instinct, Ringleader, Tactical Meld, Disintegration, Screaming Souls (Mind Plague/Amplified Wave are good but when your skeletons stream is available you usually have enough focus to be able to use Screaming Souls) Passives: Penetrating Visions, Arms Bearer, Hammering Thoughts, Monastic Unarmed Training, The Empty Soul Modals: medium shield, flail, club, morning star, pike for more specific situations, probably it is easier to take a look at the videos. Apart the no-comments ultimate run upload, I'm currently playing with this build a sort of ultimate-like relaxed test run (you can probably run it a 2x speed if micro-managing of summons is boring, I am a slow speaker and it should still be intelligible), with no iron man/Wael challenge to be able to stream/comment and no Eothas challenge (but trying to emulate it), doing most risky fights for fun/challenge but pointing out those better to be avoided in a real ultimate run, and how to prolong out of combat positive effects with strand of favor like items if you want/need to cheese with them