Hassat Hunter

I have a feeling neither of you really know the guys posts, ideas and/or reputation...

The IE games allow you to individually steer your party, just like Commando's does. Yes, moving all 6 members along may take a while... Hey, weren't there people saying sneaking was far quicker? Guess it ain't...

Yes, you do. In fact, most quests involve lots and lots of talking. Should you get xp for exchanging a few meaningless words with a peasant or passerby? Surely not, like you'd get no xp for killing them or sneaking around them. Also, quests involve a lot of sneaking. And combat. All leading to the big final reward. But is the talking itself rewarded? No. Does that mean you no longer talk? No. Is the sneaking itself rewarded? No. Does that mean you no longer sneak? No. Is the combat itself rewarded? No. Does that mean you no longer do combat? No, except for some exclusions apparently. Who then tell us WE hate combat. While WE aren't skipping it. It's strange... All the extra dialogue is it's own reward. All the extra sneaking is it's own reward. All the additional combat it it's own reward...

Talking, lots of talking, is also a core component of the game. Do you get XP for talking to people? Answer; no. Are you no longer talking to any of the NPC's in the gameworld? I guess not. So, why is there this problem with combat?

From what I heard they don't want to produce inhouse... but were fine with licensing SW to third-party developers. Which is good news for a KOTOR3...

It's in the degenerate gameplay thread...

Quest only xp prevents me from killing the poor animal, even if I just want to kill it for "fun" or it's pelt (loot)? Wow, that makes sense. Really, it does (not). What? As to your edit; What prevents you? Nothing. It's that you're not REWARDED for it. A very important destinction...

Well, not too much I disagree with... While they were good yeah, the method of starting them (random) was pretty bad in most IE games. I really do like it rather more that one like KOTOR or DA:O can instigate conversations themselves instead of waiting for teammates to give them. Especially seeing after Athklata I never got them again anymore. Bug or out of content? I don't know. So that is one thing I do think PE should not follow the BG2 outlines. Yeah, found most combat sequences in BG1 prefereable to BG2. Having each mage to have a few layers and having to pull them away each fight got stale quickly. Hopefully in PE they found a way to make mages protected without this rock-paper-scissors system in place, to reduce repetition... I personally didn't mind this. You just explored, and if too hard you went elsewhere. I much prefer it over modern RPG's who have difficulty indicators and "you should be this level for a quest" and all those guiding systems. It's no shame to retreat and return later, more powerful. What about Haste? I don't mind overpowered spells though as long as they require high-level mages to cast them and they aren't spammable. Never really bothered with it in the IE games. Just hope they don't make it like Drakensang and Dragon Age... where there's absolutely no penalty for failure. So you generally just pickpocket everyone for some bonusses and those you cannot yet you return later when your rogue has a few more points in it. It's also basically what I think about the KOTORs. I like it due to the story, the characters, the setting, the exploration, the quests. But the mechanics itself are pretty bad. Sometimes one will suffer through horribly gameplay just to experience those good points (TOR, DX:HR, Morrowind, Drakensang, Witcher II etc. etc. etc.)

It was a post aimed to you. In a thread you obviously seen. I don't expect everyone to have read it, no. But since it was aimed at you, I was expecting YOU to have read it. Apparently, you didn't however. I'm not shocked (imagining some reading a post aimed at them. I have some messed up logic indeed!). And that you fail to see what it was about you and somehow make it "you expect everyone to read all you posts" should show you how good you are in interpretating words. Hint; not good. Also, weren't you supposed to NOT respond in this topic anymore? I remember reading it... somewhere. Like a few posts higher. Odd.

While Helm probably wont care and read I, I (and with me others I assume) would be interested. And atleast you're guaranteed it will be read with us too .

Failure to read has striken again... I see my explenation of why "sneak XP" is a technological and programmers nightmare in the other thread fell on deaf ears. I'm not surprised. As stated there, I don't think it will be too much of a problem. As you already stated, yes, sneaking allows you to pass combat. But if you do not advance in it, it's hard to succeed. And you likely need to be thinly armored to successfully sneak your party. Not to mention your party setup will be nowhere near as buffed or tactically in the right position as when you want combat So the counter would be; * Fight everyone, harm a little from all. * Try to sneak past everyone. No harm at all if success, but if you fail, you're likely to be harmed A LOT. Balances out to me... One could cheat of course by reloading if they are detected, but well, you can cheat that way in combat too. Doesn't make the mechanics bad.

Nope, I do read it. Also seen the links posted and readed them. I just don't take them literal. As in, every encounter is exactly balanced 100% for all types (combat, stealth, diplomacy). Sometimes one is a little better, the other time the other. In total it balances out. That's what JE Sawyer means. And I have no reason to assume that's not how it's going to be without combat XP ruining this premises.

Yes, and it would be. None is rewarded (not combat, not stealth), just doing the objective is. And it doesn't matter how you do it, just... do it.

If there is one thing KOTOR1-KOTOR2 and BG1-BG2 tought us is that rewarding each action is a pretty bad idea. Getting XP for each door opened? Getting XP for each mine defused? Getting XP for spells learned (that one was especially exploitable)? It's only inclusion in the games made that you got doubly-screwed if not possession the skills. Why isn't the chest content the reward for opening it. In KOTOR2 you even got triple-nailed, since content could be broken if bashed. Why can't the reward of a defused mine be NOT being blown up (or poisoned, or debilitated, or frozen, or webbed, or whatever). Why does it also need XP? Why does everything need rewarding with XP when the rewards are already there, plain and simple?

And of course, like all stealths, if it fails you're pretty much dead. What's better for you? Guaranteed a few HP damage? Or possibly none and risking a lot more? Sounds like balance to me. Both require investments during level ups and gear to minimalise losses.

I didn't understood it in ME3 either. Eventually the greyed out options turned blue though... so, yeah...

Yeah. In the old topic they wanted to levitate that fear by giving stealth XP instead going past enemies. And diplomacy XP. All to keep combat XP and not use Quest XP. Why do hard if you can do simple is one question that raises in me. But mostly, I don't think people really understand how much underlining work is needed for that. Especially compared to plain Quest XP. Stealth XP in particular is a big no-no. How do you know you've stealthed past someone? Does being out of LOS always count? If you go from one side of the map to the other, award all enemies you passed and never got close? In short; It's a hellish nightmare to create. And I can't see any sane dev actually implenting it with a good pre-determined plan of approach.

Like many games, they were great DESPITE the system. PS:T? Horribly fell appart when the game became a fightfest. Was fun in Sigil though. And there was almost no fighting in Sigil. KOTOR2? Same. Malachor is pretty bad. KOTOR1? Also the Star Forge was weaker due to the constant battles. BG2? After Akthlata it started falling appart. Hate the underdark. And that's mostly combat instead of quests and exploration. BG1? Baldur's Gate was more fun than treading the countryside. And the forests. Vampire: Bloodlines? It's a reason why people call it Infinite Sewers. Cause they go on, mere combatfests... not fun. And that was even without combat XP so you could avoid them all (technically, in practice, it wasn't that easy)... Do I need to say more?

Indeed. Sadly enough, that's usually not the case. You and your co-worker could both worked 32 hours, paid the same. But it's 100% impossible both did the same amount of work. There always will be this variation. Same with questing in RPG's. And it's not a good way to reward one specific task more than the other, in this case, combat. Or you almost guarantee people will do it for the reward. It's why most people will want to work on sundays, it pays more than ordinary days. But one can hardly make everyone work on sunday alone and not the rest of the days. Nor is working on sunday really "harder" or " easier" than other days... I understand why it's a bit more abstract for XP or like your working out... but the other solution would be The Elder Scrollish-kind "Raise what you do"... And we all know how good that works there, so... yeah, this is the better golden middle. Not to mention it's easier for developers to balance out, allows various options older games didn't provide due to that combat-centric gameplay, and has a build-in saveguard against exploits (they probably still will be there, but they should be easier to catch and squeel). And it makes it easier to appraise an apparent players level by content played, which could vary far more wildly with combat XP. In the end, like the OE-devs, I see many many pro's. And the few con's are nearly not enough to weigh up against it. Especially if they are basically about encounter design. Which is something that should be properly done anyway.

Yes, that kind of loan... salary. maybe you don't seem to get it. Both in pay for work in quests(xp) and in work in real life(most of the time) You get paid after you've already done the work. That is not a loan. A loan would imply that they give you Exp and Items before you slay the dragon... And maybe that bigger wall means slaying some extra orcs or solving some ancient riddle in the same quest. Nope, that's exactly my point infact. You get paid AFTER the work is done (quest/objective completion). Not while it's still in progress and you're working on it (ie. kill XP or being 20 hours in your 32 hours week). You don't see people stop working since they don't get paid per hour their salary. They're perfectly fine waiting for it at the end of the month. Why aren't all of you? Why do you need to see an increase every hour of your account, rather than wait for the big payoff? Are you really doing that at work too. Just not working since the rewards only at the end?

I think you're looking a bit too much at "balance" or "the exact same results"... While, yes, that was stated, it wasn't stated in a way that every single quest, encounter etc. would balance out. In the end one path looses some in a, gains some in b, and eventually it all balances out. When you start grasping the devs mean that with balance than what you currently read it into it I hope you see the geniality in it, and the gameplay possibilities and expandatures compared to old IE games...

Ehm, no... they just get paid A LOAN (goal completion, or usually, a month work), instead of PER HOUR (per kill). Do you have a great post on how loans are bad and everyone should be paid by the hour or everyone stops working? I would love to read it... I'm pretty sure you mean a pay check for a pay period. However how much you recieve is still determed by how much work you did. Worker A builds a wall and it takes him 32 hours of work to do. Worker B builds a wall thats bigger and it takes him 40 hours to do so. Guess who got paid more? I think my example flew over most people... so let's say it clearly... You aren't paid PER HOUR. You don't get each hour amount of money donated at your account (per kill). At the end of month your effort is set into money. Once. That's your loan. Or in this case, that would be "quest-XP". If you spend 32 hours you get less quest XP than 40 hours, indeed. That's why bigger missions give bigger rewards. Or more difficult ones give bigger rewards. But there's no need to instead of pay once at the end of that 32 hour pay the employee 32 seperate times. Because otherwise he stops working. Since that gives "no reward"...

Also, to many people complaining about XP, as an example how RPG's can be done well even without XP; http://www.gog.com/gamecard/silver It simply levels you up on defeating a boss.

Congrats, you just discoverd side-quests... Also, note how you do not get paid per hour ON TOP of your loan? There you go...

I do you say. Well, maybe you missed the dozens or so times stating I WONT. Can't blame me for your reading incompetence. I do wish people would actually read my posts instead of making assumptions what I do. Same happened in the previous thread, where I apparently wanted to control other peoples games, and I only did it because I think they were wrong. That I hate and avoid combat is new... although equally untrue. I fail to see what is stealth about SHOOTING SOMEONE IN THE FACE AT POINT-BLANK. And no, forcing people to close in instead of shooting over 100km like CoD isn't my definition of "stealth" either... It's (again) called "not being an utter moron"... LOL. "You talk of RPG's. So I mention a non-RPG. But YOU (yes, you, not me) should stop comparing apples and oranges. Of course if I do it it's totally okay. Someone hasn't playes PS:T I presume? It should give you a good indication of how to work with minimal combat. Untill it falls apart in the end that is. So, no, again... But I see you're not reading my posts anyway, so it's probably a waste of time to try to talk to you. Talking to a brick wall isn't what I am here for.