Elric Galad

Since my purpose is to give more Per Rest casts to martial classes in general, my rule would be by default to give 4x Per Rest cast of everything Per Rest. Because 4x Per Rest cast is what casters gain per spell level, it would feel fair. Sometimes I would make exception to 3x if the ability feels a bit strong (Unbending, as it is) or weak/spammy (Binding Roots as it is, or Hastening Exhortation). Expect +2x Per Rest cast compared to current values, with some exceptions (Unbending and Binding Roots feel quite balanced as they are, so no +2 Per Rest cast). Finishing Blow does not feel especially powerful (it is hard to get these bonus damages to their maximal without overkilling ; we also had this debate in PoE2) but x4 Finishing Blows feel nice for hard fights, you can even spam it for the default +5Acc / +50% damages. Every classes need a couple of Per Rest abilities with a lots of casts. In the case of Fearsome Strike, I also need to differentiate it from Withering Strike the most I can, so if one is Per Rest and the other Per Encounter, it's better. (Withering also has a slightly superior DPS) Again, it isn't strong enough to prevent me from setting it to 4x Per Rest. Mmm, why ? There are 3 kinds of "retaliation effects" : - Item retaliation, which has lowish normal damages. This one could have been better with raw damages (but I won't change items), cause DR is a pain in this case. Fire Godlike is in this category but its scaling damages makes it better. - Barbaric Retaliation, same but raw. This one is indeed much better because it is raw. - Riposte which retaliates (with a chance) by a Full Attack. Your usual weapon attacks aren't raw, why Riposte should be raw ? Also Rogue's attacks usually have no issues with DR due to the bonus damages. Also changing weapon attack to raw damages would be technically complicated. INT doesn't mean lesser damages for Deep Wound AFAIK, this is not wounding/wounding shots. 9 raw damages/3s is just 3 damages per second. It is not much given that an endgame Rogue with zeroish recovery will swing for 50ish damages per weapon attack every second. That's not big damages unless you switch targets. But if you want to switch targets, why aren't you playing an AoE damages class to begin with ? What I mean is that Deep Wound effect wouldn't be so impressive even with 9 raw damages per tick. Adding 9 raw damages on first shot is nice, the added damages after that is meager but that's still added damages. You need to combo it to exploit its potential. But since I intend to buff Rogue possibilities, it kind of feel right. Not all classes should be able to do everything and I don't intend do change that. However, since I plan to rise the number of cast of Per Rest abilities, at least there should be more charges of Deprive the Unworthy (so even if you can't debuff, you could at lest prevent foes from buffing, take that Thaos !). Indeed, that's because of him that I'm pretty sure Unbending works about the same as PoE2, and/or at least enable somewhat infinite Endurance while it lasts. Indeed. Casters are only limited by their number of Per Rest ressource which feels somewhat balanced as long as one doesn't rest spam. I won't address rest spamming, since it would change the whole game, and that's not my intention. At low level, Spiritshift, Radiance and Arcane Assault save a bit your day. Ahem, @Boeroer, if you have any opinion here (I know you probably don't play much with PoE2 BPM, but that hasn't prevented you from helping it )

To be honnest, I wondered if this mod was enough to make Rogue "good enough" in order to avoid to release a PoE1 Balance Mod myself (as I did for PoE2, but in much less ambitious fashion since modding PoE1 is way less convenient). Take into account that I just plan adjusting values, not adding a "new" effects since modding PoE1 is quite complex. Basically, the change I have listed for Rogue (most important in bold): Sneak Attack : add +10% per 3 lvl beyond 1, up to 50+50=100% damages at lvl 16 (ensures Rogue S tier single target damage dealer) Dirty Fighting : 10%->15% crit (vicious fighting still +10% ; abilities are supposed to be worth more than talents, as for Fighter's Weapon mastery) Riposte : 20% on miss, 30% on graze -> 30% on miss, 30% on graze Deep wounds add +3 scaling per 6 lvl beyond 1 up to 9 raw damages/3s tick at level 13 Finishing Blow : 2x -> 4x per Rest Fearsome Strike : 1x -> 4x per Rest Withering Strike : 1x -> 2x per Encounter Feign Death : Prone 10s -> 3s, invisible 6s -> 12s (increases spike damages through backstab, sort of god mode but still costs 3s of unability to act. It is meant to be Rogue strongest ability, their unique trait and trump card, in a similar fashion as Sacred Immolation or Twinned Arrows) I don't plan to buff every meh ability of the game, or nerf some beloved OP abilities (Dragon Trashed is a classic ) but only to balance Class and Races. Rogues would get by far the most changes. Note that one of the general principles of this balance mod would be to increase the number of per Rest casts for all non spellcasters. One of the biggest strength of casters (Wiz, Priest, Druids) is that they have a lots of casts for boss fights, making them God tier for such battles. Increasing the number of Per Rest casts of martial classes would balance this a bit. A lot of Per Rest abilities are actually quite good vs bosses (Unbending, Deprive the Unworthy, Finishing Blow), and I feel weird that they usually get 1-2 casts of them while casters get 4 casts on each Tier (not even counting mastery). Apart for this, I plan to buff Fighter a bit, tune down a couple of Wiz/Priest spells and buff a couple of races. I will give more details on a dedicated thread. I have no idea when I would be able to do that, but I have to get reviews while there are still a couple of experienced players on this forum.

Yes, this is about Solo. I consider the game to be balanced for party game, and in a party Ranger and Rogue would have same Acc in the endgame simply because Devotion for the Faithful is just mandatory for any power gaming party. In Solo, Shadowing Beyond is kind of unique in term of general utility, but it is again much less relevant with a party. My own criteria about balance is the following : Is the class able to fullfill a particular role (or combinations of roles) better than anyone else in a party ? Rogue is basically the only class that doesn't fullfill this criteria. Single target DPS : it is more or less equalled by Ranger, who also has better utilities. (not to mention Druid) I'm not entirely sure because my analysis is based on PoE2 (June 24, 2020 post): Melee Rogue is too weak on PotD Upscale - Pillars of Eternity: Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!) - Obsidian Forum Community That being said, I remember a Fighter (the one that hold the redeemer) who displayed a similar behavior in PoE1. And as a fact, you can find numerous PoE1 forum post that states that Unbending heals more that it displays (and scales with INT), maybe 100%, maybe even more. For PoE1, I doubt anyone has made a full analysis. Which leads Fighter to be better than anyone else at surviving damages. Which satisfies my criteria, while Rogue does not. At some point, Scon's Mica Roar stacked its -5 all defenses penalties. Potential -30 all defenses. You can add either Blind, Sap or Fearsome strike. I'm not sure it is still true though. Graze to Hit conversion is mostly irrelevant (but well, it is there so why not).

What is so high about Rogue accuracy ? (compared to Ranger in particular) Dirty Fighting (not acc but quite close) ? It is a lowish return on investment. Also Crits isn't the biggest part of Rogue DPS. Persistant Distraction ? This one is cute, but technically is just a +6 Reckless Assault ? Bonus accuracy is suppressed by Devotion for the Faithful, a big drawback with a party since Devotion for the Faithful is such a "must have". If we extend the "accuracy" topic to more general "chances of actually hitting", I think an underrated Rogue feature is Blunderbuss + Strikes. I you want to apply a condition, you have 6 rolls to do so. Fearsome Strike basically applies an "auto-hitting" -20 to all secondary defenses this way. Sap + Blunderbuss is an "automatic" target disabler as well as big damages spike as an alpha move. Bonus point for doing it with Scon Mica's Roar. But even that feels a bit lacking compared to Stunning Shot from ranger class, and its freaking reccursive Crowd Control. Ranger was so much buffed over the course of versions that it somewhat surpassed Rogue in their role. Paladin is kind of support, so I wouldn't expect to be brilliant in Solo. I don't expect classes to be very balanced for Solo anyway. [CLASS BUILD] The Unstoppable Wave (Siege Breaker Fighter) - Pillars of Eternity: Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!) - Obsidian Forum Community I played this one, and it was very fun. Granted that a lots of tricks from this build could apply to Rogue as well (because of Deathblow). Granted that at this time I didn't know about the secret of Unbending that I learnt later from PoE2.

Everyone can I don't agree. Paladins have a formidable endgame ability with Sacred Immolation, on top of auras, instant joker resurrect and a couple of goodies. Paladins before sacred immolation were meh though. Fighters are borderline in the same case as Rogues, but Charge really does a lots of damages 2x encounter and sundering blows is neat with the right combos (blunderbusses and multi-hit spells especially). And most important, Unbending can really make you unkillable when really needed, something no other class can do. Overall they are not too bad and have their own unique specialty. Rogue are supposed to be the king of passive single target DPS, but they are not really, or just by a thin margin, since Twinned Arrows came and basically doubles Ranger's DPS, making Ranger somewhat comparable to Rogue. Ranger has a pet (with decent damages) and a lots of utilities (esp. Driving Flight and reccursive CC through Stunning Blow). It is really the comparison with Ranger (and Druid for short period of time) that makes the Rogue feels so poor. They never receive something as gamechanging as Sacred Immolation and Twinned Arrows.

I've always considered Rogue being the lowest Tier in PoE1 and Fighter being slightly above. I might have overlooked Fighter's Unbending since it works most likely as in PoE2, healing you way more than advertised and more than the damages you take ([MECHANICS] Various Testing - Page 2 - Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!) - Obsidian Forum Community) since foes activating Unbending in PoE1 were basically immortal as far as I remember. So at least Fighter can have unlimited endurance "enough time per day" while doing decent weapon damages. But for Rogue, it's harder to get redeeming qualities out of abusing Deathblows + Scrolls. My main grip has always been that they do barely more damages than Ranger with bows + pet, due to how strong is Twin Arrows modal at high level. And Ranger has more utility. I could have tried some modding myself , but PoE1 is way more complicated to mod than PoE2 and I know how time consuming it can become once you commit starting a mod. Therefore I looked for existing mods about Thief, which led me to this one : Rogue Buff 3.7 at Pillars of Eternity Nexus - Mods and community (nexusmods.com) What do you guys think about it ? Leaving apart modded Adept Evasion which is claimed broken by its author himself (and can apparently be removed from the package quite easily), I think it does a sufficient job for following reasons (by prority) : 1) Modded Backstab can be used at distance and modded Shadowing Beyond can be used twice per encounter. It is great because it gives enormous alpha damages basically 3x per encounter which can be abused with firearms especially. Blunderbusses can apply conditions with 6x rolls (which is nice even without mod), making it basically auto-hit and allows bullets from 2nd to benefit from Sneak Attack / Deathblows / potential deflection Debuff from the affliction. So you can set up stuff like : a) Alpha strike with Sap/Blinding Strike applying Backstab + Sneak + Deathblow with Scon Mica's Roar from sneak b) (Quick) Switch to Beta strike with Runner's Wounding Shot applying Backstab + Sneak + Deathblow with Lead Spitter from Shadowing Beyond EDIT : IT WON'T WORK SINCE BACKSTAB ONLY APPLIES TO FIRST PELLET... You'll still have a Shadowing Beyond "charge", and even after it, you're left with a good DPSer that has already removed a couple of targets from the encounter. In my own experience Sap + Blunderbuss is already great without mod, but this would take it to another level. I think it is great because it emphasized the strength of the class at alpha striking, not just trying to imitate other class feature. PoE1 fight aren't that long (compared to PoE2), so a good alpha striker can really turn the tables. 2) These improved deep wounds are neat, and emphasizes with the already strong use of Scrolls and item abilities. 3) The modded version of Riposte seems easier to build around reliably. 4) The other changes are less interesting, but are essentially buffs so it can't be bad anyway. I'm really thinking to use this mod when I will come back at PoE1, since it solved the aspect of the game balance I'm the most uncomfortable with, which is the relative weakness of the rogue.

I'm more or less aware of this. There are indeed strange rules that apply to current health while max health is changed (mostly through CON buff). There was even a thread about it (started by @thelee if I remember well), but I wasn't able to find and necro it. The topic was more about CON Inspiration though. In general it isn't gamechanging, but in case of Megabosses, well, it is. And yeah, it's hardcoded. Gotta love this BPM SC Ranger permanent CON Debuff I guess.

OK, so wrong description or wrong proc chance ? Which to tweak ? I would lean to the former since it changes the game the less.

All I'm saying is that the 20% values does not seem to be used (apart description) according to the structure of the code.

I did it. Oh my ! If I understand well : { "$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp", "DebugName": "Mercy_strike_SE_ApplyOnEvent", "ID": "dec282fb-96f1-45b7-8566-33d89ce5873f", "Components": [{ "$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectComponent, Assembly-CSharp", "StatusEffectType": "ApplyStatusEffectOnEvent", "OverrideDescriptionString": 254, "OverrideDescriptionStringTactical": -1, "UseStatusEffectValueAs": "None", "BaseValue": 0.2, The 0.2 does not feel suspicious, but the ApplyStatusEffectOnEvent is. Compare with Weightless draw and Galawain's Harry from Saint Omaku and Veilpiercer : { "$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp", "DebugName": "Weightless_draw_SE_ApplyOnEvent", "ID": "01badb09-824d-4e49-b77a-f670eda74a50", "Components": [{ "$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectComponent, Assembly-CSharp", "StatusEffectType": "ApplyStatusEffectOnEventWithChance", "OverrideDescriptionString": 278, "OverrideDescriptionStringTactical": 745, "UseStatusEffectValueAs": "None", "BaseValue": 0.5, { "$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectGameData, Assembly-CSharp", "DebugName": "Galawains_harry_SE_ApplyOnEvent", "ID": "c1048185-e71d-46cf-8d19-a77a7ef2b6fe", "Components": [{ "$type": "Game.GameData.StatusEffectComponent, Assembly-CSharp", "StatusEffectType": "ApplyStatusEffectOnEventWithChance", "OverrideDescriptionString": 249, "OverrideDescriptionStringTactical": 746, "UseStatusEffectValueAs": "None", "BaseValue": 0.5, In short, it is 100% chance on Crit. EDIT : Then, if it doesn't work everytime, it might be because negating recovery might work weirdly with melee weapon (negating recovery before it has started might lead to mess, ranged weapons won't have this issue because of the projectile non-null travel time).

Was Frost / Shock, as KW and description suggest. Right, it was an oversight of 2.5.0. Somehow I forgot to actualy change LoPZ damage types... Just released 2.5.3 to hotfix it : Deadfire Balance Polishing Mod at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com)

I don't remember that. Or maybe once, a long time ago, but discarded quickly. Blood Surge works on friendly target though (and add health), making it somewhat more useful vs bosses. Barbs are indeed less about resource regen, but they do get extremely cheap stuff, to the point SC Barbs were considered okay even before BPM. Yup. And they gain 1 tier 7, 2 tier 8 and 1 tier 9 slots when going SC, which is way more resources than martial +2 pool. Not really. Ghosheart is anyway dubious as SC because vengeful grief fix the main drawback of non ghosheart SC. Still far from unplayable, but works better as a MC (which is fine for a subclass. Anyway if you get enough bond to cast Bonded Fury repeatedly, the problem fixes itself.

Maybe better to ask @MaxQuest then

Because I buffed its weapon, shield and armor to harmonize scaling rules. Substancial phantom has better stats in addition to its spells. Sometimes it justifies tier 7, sometimes not. Indeed It is not OP with BPM, barely middle of the incarnate road. Still super high health pool summon is a special trick that only SC Chanter can mimic. BPM Eothas has the best summon (bot the subclass is meh otherwise). You get 2 Lvl 20 casters (and all their spell slots) and 1 lvl 20 fighter for its price, worth even the PL malus (which can be decreased by Resolve in BPM, a max Res/Int priest build could be worth considering). One can even make an argument for it being stronger than Ancient Weapons when they start spamming Symbols. That is a bit the point of Incarnate to provide above the (non-chanter) curve summons, but not controllable and with a workable downside. Still Incarnates are kind of committing, so priest getting a super well rounded summon at tier 6 is nice.

To say it in another way, Summons are so good that even a bad summon could be good enough if it was the only summon. I don't think that Spiritual Ally is so great. The Robust inspiration it can cast is short lived and it has a significant recovery. You cipher buddy will do much better with Pain Block, and Spiritual Ally healing does not stack with it (or the "most cost efficient/action economy efficient" healing in the game, Nature's Balm). Not to say it is bad, but it is not that much superior to everything. (but I pick it on every MC Priest in existence, of course). Anyway Spiritual Ally is well-rounded (also controllable), Incaranates are not (not even Rymrgand), so I would inclinate toward the Ally most of the time.

I've checked most stats of all summons (googlelize thread "summoner's tables" from a while ago) and the general rule is that most summons aren't properly balanced. Some great (Phantoms, Twins, Primordials, Ancient Weapons) some are bad. The most common trait is that even if their level scales with the summoner's, their weapons and armor do not. So you're stuck with whatever the game gives you. For incarnates, they are either Superb Quality or normal quality. Really it depends. The Fighter part of Berath Incarnate has a normal Greatsword... Which leads to penetration issues for most... Meanwhile Ancient weapons or Ranger Companion all end up with legendary quality weapons... Spellcaster ones are good though, basically providing a level 20 caster fellow. One of Eothas Incarnate acts only once. It has a freaking infinite recovery. Not joking. Basically they were poorly tested, and their design was probably too hasty. Then since the malus is so big, no one used them... So not much people actually complained. So their correction wasn't prioritarized by the devs, leading to current situation. Finally the malus applies instantly, reducing the actual duration of the summons... Yeah It's a shame because even with the malus, they could have been somewhat decent without the Eothas bug and random level of quality of weapons. Priest does not have many summons (bar your healer/tank spirit ally) so it could have worked. How good/bad they are currently greatly depends on whichh one we are Talking about. The most balanced one is Rymrgand's, which has basically an "infinite" health pool and a PEN 12 AoE attack.

Version 2.5.2 has just been released : Deadfire Balance Polishing Mod at Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Nexus - Mods and Community (nexusmods.com)

Carnage is not supposed to proc on your main target... but sometimes it does. The predictable case is using pushing weapons (Llengrath warding staff). It basically push your target out the position where carnage doesn't work... so it works. For similar reasons, it might proc on moving targets. Not sure what cause the damages to apply in your particular case. Might have something to do with the size. Which would be ok since size prevents the effect from applying to other targets. Anyone with further input on this would be welcome.

It might not be entirely wrong if BPM Scrolls of Tornado provided a viable solution to beat HoW avaiable for all classes. Granted you need to dedicate a fair number of stacks to them, and having scolls of Meteor Shower along might be more efficient to hasten the risky phase, because of its extremely high damages. Also beware that Tornado targets Fortitude (Gigantic Black Ooze has 142+15 Fort in PotD...)

It would be better if it would, but even with Community Patch change, it still doesn't count as a weapon attack in all cases. It works for Focus, but for other effect it depends. And it would be fairly technical to change (without further consequence such as enabling AoE enfeebled with AoE weapons).

Bumped for @Shai Hulud

Nope, Sacred Immolation is fire only (and LoPZ is vessel/spirit only). A SC paladin has really no offensive ability vs Fire based non vessel/spirit (and Fire absorbing vessel - at least Doru) No, that's really just picking one backup ability (2 if upgrade is counted). A Chanter build without any summon is a bit weird. You will need them at some point, at least vs Megaboss (or the build is suboptimal anyway). Her revenge has base 30-42 damages (because 3x what displayed...), with bounce on top. It should be enough to spam. Bellower are also the best subclass at summoning. As I said above, I don't intend to change much damage types. Well, I think it is all about Tier 9 scrolls. A Tier 9 scroll is worth about "4 martial ressources". You can have 5 per slot, 4 to 6 slots. That's up to 120 points of ressources. How can it be balanced anyway ? I don't think Tornado scroll is another league than Maelstorm. Maelstorm deals way higher damages, with an AoE sufficient for most fights. How many fights can one clear with 16 Maelstorm scrolls ? Even if the absence of CC means you have to handle your defense somehow, and manage a bit more the AoE. I think you have a point that Tornado has a special edge when cast repeatedly. But the risks with Maelstorm isn't that much higher (especially with tanky classes such as Fighter) and the reward is way above. My idea is that using consumable is a win, but is not a free win. And that it won't work vs certain Megabosses (I think the Oracle has a tolerably high fortitude). That's why I'm not considering nerfing the scrolls in general (not limited to Tornado). The Tier 9 ability itself is limited by its mediocre damages, casting it once is great but isn't going to win by itself. Benchmark vs comparable Random AoE Tier 9 spells (Meteor Storm, Minoletta's Salvo). There is a dedicated thread about it. That's why the nerf wasn't so big.

Because slayer claw basically create a new status, and probably only copy the duration. There are a couple of affliction/inspiration statuses with secondary effect attached to them (such as non BPM Confounding Blind or Perishing Strike Weakened). The additional property is also lost when the affliction is upgraded / downgraded through weakness / resistance.

Carnage can crit only with balance polishing mod. Interrupting Blows applies to Carnage crits only with BPM too. And Blood storm without BPM is extended by kills, not crits (which is useless vs some Megabosses).

No pb I mean compared to MC Chanter, it has a relative cost of 3 instead of 5 phrases. Console command can do this. I don't allow NPC classes for PC since it's not the purpose of the mod, and it is easy to do through Console. Well, I don't change damage type unless absolutely needed. SC Paladin has exactly zero non fire sources of damages apart weapon pocking, while a Chanter can use summons, Dragon trashed, "thrice was she wronged" and "boil the flesh" as backup to deal damages. Summons especially are often fire related (the wurms are extremely cost efficient for damages). PEN 9 or PEN 10 are relatively high PEN for AoE spells. PEN 9 happens but is high PEN on its own. PEN 10 is basically more PEN than 90% of damages spells, even counting the raw one (I mean, apart Minoletta Precise Burst, I can't name another non raw AoE spell with 10+ PEN). So I count it as High PEN. Also both upgrades basically add +1 PEN because it scales the intresic level of the ability (while PL still provides benefit as if non scaled). Deadly Deadfire and the various difficulty options (including solo) will do the trick. This is not the purpose of BPM Well, great to know but spamming expensive consumable is kind of... legit to kill a boss ? Of course, it could have had more expensive component, but my priority is to have a great ability for SC Druid. If someone wants to use such joker to clear a particular fight, why not ? It isn't a "free" win after all.