Tigranes

Magister: the basic logic is, if the industry people have a way to create a certain thing, then the warez people will find a way to undo it. Because they're all basically working with the same building-blocks. Ain't like manufacturing where only the industry has big specialised tools. DRM .exe? Crack the .exe. Superior cd check? Produce 1:1s too. etc, etc. If the devs can do it, chances are the warez people can do it too, eventually. I do wonder, too. It would probably actually take a while, because the culture won't be able to keep up.

He lied to us! BURN HIM!

....That's the first time I've heard her speak. Okay, I mean, I'm the first one to hate people for judging on appearances.... but next time I need to know what she said, I'm reading a transcript. Otherwise I'll probably be more biased than a monkey doing a limbo on the leaning tower of Pisa.

jags swings by now and again, I think. I was here on day one (and lurked in BIS couple of years, aaah, Gromnir), but I think I was basically dead a few months, so I missed a bit. I miss most: Meta, Zoq Fot Pik, and when pixies used to post more.

Of course not, nocd-exes solve everything. Okay, without being silly - I'd point out how that's not relevant at all (unless someone is arguing that everyone in the whole world is being attacked by angry cd-checks with tazers, in which case we would replace this post with a visual representation of epiphany), but I'm so afraid of starting another logical merry-go-round. Still, I can sort of understand the urge to point out that some people do get along fine with DRM. It just doesn't change the issue. Heh. I remember lots of NZ homes still had dialup 'bout 5-7years ago. Some kids kept trying to pirate the latest games, but they were starting to come out on DVD, and that increased the d/l time by days. Some of them gave up on the game, some of them kept at it and pirated anyway... I think this one guy I remember did eventually buy. Anecdotes everywhere, and they all represent a segment of the population. Except everybody and their mom already knows that all these demographics and all these varieties of experience exist. Anti-DRM argument has no problem with that, because it doesn't need these happy-DRM-users to disappear for its arguments to be true. Pro-DRM, however, does rely on those unhappy to disappear, or become miniscule. Such as EA's misleading statistics about the activations.

The thing is, let's say Atari exclusively focuses on casual & handheld games for its publishing portfolio. What the heck is the point of it holding onto the D&D license then... unless it goes for casual / handheld D&D games (eh)? If they go down that route, wouldn't it make a lot of business sense for them to let others use the license and pay them? I dont know how license laws work at all, but why would Atari pay Hasbro the $ for the license then just let it sit on its arse when they know the money to be made?

Heh, opinions, opinions. See, I hated Bloodlines combat. That, and the bugs meant I never really got to play it properly. The CD's burning a hole in my closet and I've got to go back to it once I have a better computer. I suspect this one couldn't quite handle a badly optimised Source. Also enjoyed NWN2 combat - certainly wasn't worse than NWN1's. It's not IE engine but despite its response lag and all, it's alright. Er, for me. Shandra was really the only thing that nearly broke the game for me, I hated that. And finally, I still don't get what's so great about HOTU. I played some of SOU and all of NWN1OC (I wanted to see how bad it would get) and HOTU, and well... HOTU was certainly hte best of the bunch, but elsewhere it wouldn't get a pip for me. MOTB would.

By the way, I think this is one of the reasons I couldn't enjoy Spore as much as I might have. (Yeah, it's gone now) Because of my 4-year-old computer spluttering every step of the way, everything was pretty damn ugly. All your creatures and houses would wear butt-ugly pixelated textures, there would be no grass or pretty effects, etc.... and I think for a game like Spore you really need to be able to play on recommended settings.

I don't know. I loved the NWN2 OC enough to play it twice over. And while there were people slagging it off way back then, I don't remember nearly as many people taking the OC's crapness for granted now. It's as if when MOTB came out, people (including journos) started saying, "hey, get this, it's awesome! Oh, you didn't like nwn2? Well, the OC wasn't as good. It was crap. This is great!" Not saying people did some sort of mass hypocritic turn, just saying the general opinion about it seems to have changed for the worse around that time. It's interesting, because MOTB *was* certainly a lot better, but I thought the OC's high points such as the Trial and the Keep, and some of its NPCs such as Bishop, were great; and if it wasn't great all throughout, well, it was a massive campaign. Certainly, in terms of gameplay hours, I thought there were very few horrid areas (Orc Caves, mystery invisible assassins barracks).

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Volourn & randomnoob at the same time, but yeah, I do. When I saw Magister's OP I cried foul as well, but when I read the full link I saw that it was part of a transition towards DRM-free song and they hadn't been selling DRM songs since February, it makes a lot more sense. They might have given more time for people, such as a full year, but it's definitely a move that makes sense. Now, the bit about whether they're giving enough notice. Are there pamphlets & notices at American wall marts all over the place? Are there popup announcements at WalMart's site and the site where you buy/dl music from WalMart? If so, then nobody can complain about not checking their corporate mail (even if it is an understandable practice due to all the spam). If it's just one mail lodged in, say, 10 pieces of spam Walmart sends you every week, perhaps there is cause for complaint. Still, I agree with Magister on one thing: this really shows how the closing of online activation servers is something that can really happen, and soon.

Is he going to play American football?

Yep. I'm not accusing ramza of being a rabble-rouser or anything, but tthis one is a stretch too far and it really does muddy the waters. If the public feedback against draconian DRM is to have an effect, it needs to prevent becoming polemical/reactionary (any more). Rob's comment is fine.

I heard Alvin embroiders Crates

I think you're overreacting a little bit ramza, matter-of-fact comments like that, albeit from the dev's pov, can be found everywhere. Anyway, remember when we were asked to buy BoS so Van Buren could be made? Can't get worse than that. As for MoW, well.... I try not to think about what's happening with that. Heh.

I remember that, what with the anti-console import policies (directed at Japan of course). My cousin had the Dreamcast and N64 as soon as they came out, but they were bootleggish. I played the original Sonics (1,2,3) like a madman when I was a kid in the '90s. I think I started with the Genesis. My aim was always to learn the levels so well that I could play through the whole game without EVER stopping or slowing down - I maintain to this day that's the only way to play Sonic. Left Korea and came to New Zealand in '97, when I was introduced to Romance of the Three Kingdoms IV (KOEI), which got me hooked into strategy gaming (specifically, historical strategy gaming). I believe my move made me miss the Starcraft craze, too. Also, the Playstation came out soon with a lot of hoopla and some pretty effective marketing. After a brief stint with the original Pokemon Blue on Gameboy (hey, I was 10), Final Fantasy VII basically made me get the console, whatever the means. I think I actually played FFVII, FFVIII and FFIX for about 2-3 years. I couldn't afford any other game, and I didn't see much point when each one would take up to 100 hours to clock. The stories were extremely engaging to someone my age (or rather, VIII and IX were just fun enough; VII was really engaging at the time), and I don't know, the grind wasn't bad. Anyway, I also had the habit of flippiing over game magazines in bookshops during that time (heh, not so much the internet), and the previews for Shadows of Amn caught my eye. I hardly knew about D&D (being a Korean and 12 years old, of course), but this was clearly an RPG, and it looked infinitely more complex and interesting. I recall thinking hey, these guy don't line up to fight, this is much better! Back then I was still a poor kid, so once it came out, every day after school, I'd go straight to the local EB, and play the game for an hour before they kicked me off. I did that for 2 months until I could afford the game; so that's what, 60 hours? And I never even got out of the dungeon! I usually spent about 40 minutes at character creation stage, and they never let me save, anyway. I could recite Irenicus' lines by the end, though. (Actually, I can still recite all of his cutscene lines...) At the time I was also introduced to Planescape: Torment. A gentleman a friend of my mother knew, this +40 fellow, insisted that it was an infinitely superior experience. I tried it; well, I recall thinking the text is awesome, but still too much, so skipped half. Already knee deep in BG2, the towns seemed tiny and the combat was abysmal, and I passed. Played BG2, then TOB, then BG1, for about 2 years straight, I think. I also picked up some strategy games - Age of Kings then Age of Mythology, specifically. By then I was in the middle of high school, Neverwinter Nights was taking goddamn forever to come out, and I needed games similar to the BG series. It was also then I started really surfing the web seriously (thank God, what if I posted in those forums at age 13?). So found out about Torment & Fallouts, tried 'em, loved 'em, then NWN came out, OC was a crock of guano and went back on shelf after 3 days. Basically my gaming interests just expanded from those early games I found great - all the way u pto, say, Total War/Civilisation series, Final Fantasy Tactics or Elder Scrolls. Oh, yes, and I had a 8-month love affair with Diablo II. God that was fun.

Just to clarify newc. What about a game set in, say, Tethyr, few decades away and only very loosely connected to the bhaalspawn saga but with a fresh story, setting and characters, sharing some familiar gameplay elements such as squad tactical RTwP D&D combat (albeit in 4E).... that's not BG3 either? It has to have something to do with Bhaalspawn saga? Or are you arguing against a BG3 that is unrecognisably different? (i.e. any more than TBH) If the former, I can't see your logic at all. If the latter, well... that *is* sort of unlikely, isn't it?

SPINNING FIST, MEGAMAN!

If the business model generally switched to such a scheme, the deal-makers/breakers for me would be: 1/ Easy modding, which not only includes big mods by dedicated teams I can download, but the possibility for myself to just go fiddle with some files and change some values - i.e. changing the walking speed in Morrowind. If I can't do that, they better have a lot, lot better post-release support. 2/ An attitude hwich does not abuse the model by gratuitously banning players (but hey, EA's already got a head start) from these 'rents', throwing invasive advertising or somesuch. 3/ The automatic release of all discontinued games into public domain. On each of those, I harbour doubts.

Nowhere as effective a brand name, though.

Actually, I don't think it will. Fallout is largely defined by its unique setting, one which was entirely invented by the game's creators - so that there is not as much room for reimagination or reinvention that doesn't seem out of place. On the other hand, people in generla have an attachment with the Bhaalspawn saga, but the setting is... just the Sword Coast, and hell, nobody had a problem with not even having Baldur's Gate in the second game. It's FR to boot so theres a lot of room for new stuff without offending people. The only way BG3 would gain the kind of hatred FO3 gets, is if it decided to directly continue the Bhaalspawn saga or have the same PC or something silly like that. I mean, look at TBH. All you need is ~2 months of good solid marketing to drum "its bg3 NO ITS NOT BHAALSPAWN SAGA" into people's heads.

And much faster loading times. Those two are enough to make the Witcher worth playing again, for me. ....when I get a new computer.

It was idiotic a few years ago, and it's still idiotic now. It was idiotic when other companies did it, and it's still idiotic now. I mean, what? This is a very valid point if you are trying to salvage EA's reputation from being unfairly condemned, but it does nothing to change the fact that it is an abhorrent practice. (Kids breaking windows are nothing new, this kid isn't the only one to do it... but that doesn't mean we just let it go right?) Yeah, I'm pretty sure EA put in some sort of all-purpose clause in the Spore EULA. Probably says something like this activation key may be rescinded at any time for any reason at our leisure. The thing is, I don't think the discussion of its legality in this specific situation is the point! The point is whether they should be able to legally do this in the first place, and whether it's good business practice to do it, whether legal or not. Legality is not the main issue. Saying they can do it because it's legal is... well.

A combat system which emulates D&D rounds into pausable real-time, involving a PC and several NPCs that may be directly controlled, all of it using D&D rules and systems? I obviously left out all the differences, but hell, of course it's related.

Yep. On that issue, you have to balance it out: 1) They did good on listening to people's complaints and making it not so bad now. 2) The restrictions are still there, however, as witnessed by this new and even worse abuse of the activation code right in this thread. 3) The fact that they fixed what they did wrong, doesn't mean that we should forget they did it in the first place. 4) And no, (2) and (3) don't invalidate the goodness of (1). I'm not taking you for an idiot Moatilla, but rather, I'm sick of how the debate as a whole keeps shifting between black & white, so excuse me on this. Anyway, yeah, y'know what this makes me think of? Raise the bathwater temperature little by little, nobody will complain, but they sure will die.

Oh, and for people who said "I don't care about DRM as long as/as far as it doesn't affect me"? We can see how the online activation, which seemed relatively innocuous (to such people) at the time, turns out to be a mechanism by which EA can rob you the game you paid for because you lodged a complaint on their official website. That's my point. It may not affect me/you today, but as DRM gets more draconian and more powerful, the number of ways in which it *could* expands dramatically.