MadDemiurg

I personally don't think that Paladin abilities should be on par witch Chanter/Priest, since paladin has much better stats (especially defenses). There should be some tradeoff. They should not be useless however. For instance, I find reinforcing exhortation reasonably useful (maybe it can use a small buff, like +5). Liberating is good with Darcozzi but not with everyone else (maybe it should add charm/dominate defense on top by default. not only with goldpact talent which seems far too specialized?). Deprive the Unworthy has a per rest instead of per encounter limit for not good reason. Hastening is good, but at level 11 it should be per encounter really. Pooling them all together in one per encounter pool sounds like a good idea (stronger ones can cost 2 uses instead of 1), There should also be some more variation, right now there are just too few of them for flexible builds.

Earlygame pallys are indeed quite good, since when your priest has like 5 spells per rest auras do not look bad at all. Their support doesn't scale into the lategame at all though (while their tankyness does quite admirably well). As for "packing a punch" I'm having hard time naming a class with lower damage potential than paladin (but probably that's ok). Paladins have OK accuracy, only fighters, rogues, rangers and monks have higher, and paladins get flames of devotion in level 1 and zealous focus on level 3, which make them quite able to give punch in early game, but in mid game they start to lose it and in end game they start to stay behind, but they can still do decent amount damage if they can fulfill other roles in party like support-tanking, so if their support capabilities are boosted then they would find easier their place in end game parties, as then they would be ok in support ok in tanking and not useless in dps. Technically most all classes (except for chanters and barbarians I think) have 30 base accuracy with their "main" attacks, the "main" attacks just happen to be spells for spellcasters. They are not that far behind on DPS vs some classes, but they have almost 0 DPS abilities (FOD which is 2 enhanced weapon hits per encounter, so nothing spectacular, and Sworn enemy, which is per rest and would be much better if pallys were better at dealing damage in the first place), so I'd say literally every other class has more abilities for dealing damage. Which is ok, since they are a tank/support class. Improving the support part would indeed make them more attractive for a party slot.

I like the other Darcozzi talent - +10 accuracy on Liberating exhortation that stacks (yay!) with spells. It is especially nice for dragon fights where it both adds +10 acc and suppresses Terrify aura, effectively granting 30 accuracy in 1 action. Granted, priest can cast suppress affliction anyway, but he can open up with devotions of the faithful for a change. Tossing that on your casters ensures that your CCs will land and that usually means a win. But one order specific talent hardly makes paladins good support in general (And I would never trade priest for a paladin, fighter is the only one who can be traded). Earlygame pallys are indeed quite good, since when your priest has like 5 spells per rest auras do not look bad at all. Their support doesn't scale into the lategame at all though (while their tankyness does quite admirably well). As for "packing a punch" I'm having hard time naming a class with lower damage potential than paladin (but probably that's ok).

So I've picked this spell, even though it's pretty bad and i've never picked it before. But I decided to give it a go. Seems that the spell targets an ally, affecting him with some jumping effect (says hits with Amplified Thrust for 0.7 sec in the console) and then jumps to a single enemy... affecting them with the same effect (says hits with Amplified Thrust for 0.7 sec again)... dealing no damage and ending since there's only 1 jump. So basically it does nothing. I think it's a universal problem, but if it's something specific to my game I can provide a savegame.

Yeah, the synergy is pretty strong. Moonlike on a monk would be an equivalent of wizard regaining spells when getting damaged if that was a thing, or cipher getting focus... oh wait...

Auras need to be bigger (zealous charge is 5m right now, others are 2.5. Let them all be 5) and count as talents rather than spells so they would stack with buffs. +6 accuracy or +3 DT is hardly gamebreaking (chanter has +25% dmg). Maybe make increased range a talent though, so you can chose if you want to specialize in wider area support. The only area paladins do not suck in atm is soaking up damage, but they still don't hold the line as well as fighters because of fewer engage slots (unless you burn a talent and pick a guarding weapon). If they had decent support though engage could be left as is, to differentiate the classes. I've never encountered the zealous focus bug, it has its crappy 2.5m range in my game. it's probably much better if your paladin bugged out but I wasn't lucky enough :D.

Level by level, all Cipher spells have greater damage ranges than wizard spells. Most durations are close to double the base of wizard spells. The base durations for the wizards confusion spells are like 6 seconds on a hit. That's awful. Other offensive durations are equally unimpressive. Even their spell which reduces DR only reduces it by 5, whereas the Cipher can steal 10 DR. The base duration is also far longer. Most wizard spells posses AoE, but I find the circumference of these spells to be sorely lacking. They are often too small to risk casting at a moving target, and rarely fit more than 2 enemies within them without risking friendly-fire. Several Cipher spells posses AoE and most do not have any sort of friendly-fire involved. Those that do are more easily managed than the wizards spells at the very least. The one aspect where there might be a deficiency, is that some of the cipher spells have gimmicks, like the requirements of being cast on a friendly target. Unless you are soloing, this is rarely a problem. Essentially the only thing the Wizard has as being noteworthy over the Cipher is Gaze of the Adragon, and possibly Essential Phantom if soloing. Else, the Wizard loses. Inferior potency, inferior accuracy, inferior duration, inferior ease of use. When you couple this with how large a percentage a wizard's spells will be lost to grazes and even misses, the wizard falls even further behind. Do you even play the classes or just read the outdated wiki? Level 1 wizard spell: Fan of Flames - 40-55 damage Level 1 cipher spell: Soul Shock (the most comparable one) - 22-30 Level 1 wiz CC: Aoe prone for 4 sec base Hazard aoe bilnd with 12-18 damage per tick and Blindness for 3 sec each tick, base duration 15 sec Level 1 cipher CC: confuse 1 target for 6 sec or charm for (9? don't have this one on hands) 6 sec is horrible... You know, mental binding is 6 sec base... Level 2 wiz confusion is 5 sec base aoe, and confusion > paralyze. Level 4 is 8 sec base and huge aoe. Level 5 aoe knockdown for 10 base... Cipher durations double the wizard ones? Which one? Phantom lolsfoes? Some more damage numbers: L4 wizard missles: 15-25*5 aoe L4 cipher lance: 35-42 line L5 wizard frost blast 50-80 L5 cipher... oh wait cipher L5 dd spells are all crap... DT steal is 7 btw (10 is outdated data on wiki) and it's singe target level 4. Wiz is aoe -5 DT -10 Deflection & Concentration aoe level 3. The fact that it gives DT to cipher is pointless unless you solo. The list can go on. I'm not saying wiz is OP, but saying that cipher has stronger spells is just ignorant.

I don't know how you people get damage difference like that? Do you run your party to its death and then solo everything with your PC? From my (abandoned) Paladin earlygame playthrough (lvl3): PC paladin tank: 2.1K (overblown a bit due to exp lead and prologue damage), Custom rogue: 4K, Custom monk offtank: 3.3k (also leads in damage taken), Custom cipher: 4.3K (probably could be more if not for CC spam), Custom Ranger: 3K (AC damage doesn't count most likely), Custom priest: 2K (duh)

Some of the best Cipher abilities must be targeted on a ally though, not oneself. Doesn't that make it sub-optimal for soloing? Or did it work with summoned creatures from figurines? Cipher loses a fair chunk of its power solo. You can still use figurines for tough fights, but with party many of his better power are easier to use/make more sense. it's still one of the better solo classes, but i won't put him at #1.

Cipher is without doubt, far more powerful in all situations than a Wizard or Druid. Regardless of how many spells per day the wizard/druids have remaining, this is just as true for trash as it is for boss fights--even more so for boss fights. The durations of their spells are significantly longer and their damage ranges far greater. Couple these with their ability to do things like reduce DR, reliably paralyze, while not suffering from the inevitable miss/grazes, their superiority to the wizard is unquestionable. How's that? Most cipher CC is single target. Wizard's is aoe. Damage ranges are not true either, cipher generally has less aoe and damage, outside of ray spells that do great damage but are difficult to execute properly. Wizard has aoe confusion on L2 and big aoe confusion on L4, along with huge duration aoe prone on L5. Wizard has petrify. Cipher has no petrify. Cipher indeed has slightly more accuracy, because of base 25 and +10 on some spells. Imo these spells should be toned down to +5, but that's hardly game changing. So cipher's CC is only slightly more reliable in general. Wizard can also reduce DR in aoe and whatever. The only unique cipher effects are charm/dominate which are mostly redundant with current confusion implementation anyway. Properly played wizard is much more powerful than cipher in big fights. Same for druid really. The main outlier in Cipher's arsenal is amplified wave tbh. it requires no proper positioning, has huge foe only aoe and does good damage and CC. It's level 6 though, and in boss fights stuff like petrify and essential phantom still wins. Warlock vs Wizard D&D comparison makes sense, although both wizard and cipher are much less powerful than these D&D counterparts.

Chill fog is pretty good if you tank in a corner/doorway and stack like 6 of them.

can see some of the test results in my scion of flame talent bug report https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78480-104-bug-scion-of-flame-talent-gives-no-bonus-to-searing-flame-priest-or-combusting-wounds-wizard-burn-damage-spells/?do=findComment&comment=1674506 Cleansing Flames (Priest Level 6) damage per tick is apparently 30 * ( 1 + mightmod) - TargetBurnDR * 0.25 .. It does speed up DOT effects (tested with Deep Wounds DOT and own DOT) .. It does NOT benefit at all from scion of the flame (BUG REPORT) .. It does scale duration (thus number of damage ticks, thus damage inflicted) with hit quality and Intellect mod . Combusting Wounds (tested of ring) damage per activation is 5 * (1 + might_mod) - TargetBurnDR * 0.25 It does NOT benefit at all from scion of the flame (BUG REPORT) .. It will trigger on DOT effects (tested with deep wounds and searing flames) Here's an example of Combusting wounds + deep wounds + Searing flames vs BurnDR 4 (elder lion) +0 ms |Health Damage 0.000000 // apply combusting wounds +10880 ms |Health Damage 13.803299 // sabre hit +32 ms |Health Damage 3.990997 // deep wounds tick +0 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // sabre hit -> combusting wound +9431 ms |Health Damage 0.000000 // graze searing flame +35 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // deep wounds -> combusting wound +1 ms |Health Damage 47.918915 // searing wounds DOT tick +2229 ms |Health Damage 3.990997 // DW +0 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // searing wound -> combusting wound +912 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // Deep wounds -> combusting wound +1 ms |Health Damage 47.918915 // searing wounds DOT tick +566 ms |Health Damage 3.990997 // DW +1 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // searing wound -> combusting wound +916 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // Deep wounds -> combusting wound +0 ms |Health Damage 47.918915 //searing wounds DOT tick +522 ms |Health Damage 3.908661 // DW +39 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // combusting wound +113 ms |Health Damage 2.750137 // last DW tick ? +0 ms |Health Damage 21.500870 // searing wounds last DOT tick ? +1848 ms |Health Damage 4.673584 // ?? Combusting wounds seems to work OK-ish - for the most part .. // auto attack deep wounds with combusting wounds dual sabres +0 ms |Health Damage 13.803299 // weapon +26 ms |Health Damage 3.990997 // DW DOT tick +1 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // 5 * (1 + 0.63) - 4 * 0.25 CW +1332 ms |Health Damage 8.803299 // weapon +27 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // CW +1501 ms |Health Damage 8.803299 // weapon +26 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // CW +138 ms |Health Damage 3.990997 // DW +0 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // CW +1204 ms |Health Damage 13.803299 // weapon +28 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // CW +96 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // CW +1333 ms |Health Damage 8.803299 // weapon +29 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // CW +184 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // CW +122 ms |Health Damage 3.990997 // DW +1 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // CW +1076 ms |Health Damage 13.803299 // weapon +28 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // CW +139 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // CW +208 ms |Health Damage 2.963730 // ? +1037 ms |Health Damage 13.803299 // weapon +208 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // CW +334 ms |Health Damage 3.990997 // DW +843 ms |Health Damage 13.803299 // weapon +251 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // CW +123 ms |Health Damage 7.153152 // CW +1040 ms |Health Damage 13.803299 // weapon +423 ms |Health Damage 2.976486 // ? +328 ms |Health Damage 3.990997 // DW Thanks. Seems very potent after all.

Cipher's not more OP than other spellcasters. Just more noob friendly (and more fun to play, although that depends). His different mechanics make him hard to balance. He already has less nova potential and generally weaker (with few exceptions) spells and more limited spell selection. He trades that for ability to spam spells in every encounter (which is of questionable value, but makes him more fun) and better weapon combat ability. If his spellcasting is significantly nerfed, he'll need to be turned into full combat class like monk to be viable. I don't think PoE needs another combat class.

140 is still 30% hit chance. You'll need 170 for 35% grazes only (which still hurt A LOT) and a theoretical 205 for complete immunity.

Hm, what exactly from the rogue kit do you miss to make cipher a "shadowblade"? Cipher already has increased weapon damage. Both SA and soul whip would be just crazy. I don't feel like mixing cipher with a rogue would bring smth new (Rogues don't have many distinct class features outside of SA per se). Introducing new cipher spells that support melee weapon playstyle would work better. Druid is already a very capable healer tbh. Don't see how Ciphers replaced Necromancers, they have no powers like that. An animancy class would indeed be cool.

Well, You still have a per rest requirement, your spells are just distributed between grimmoires and you can cast more that 1 of each without switching... which sounds fun on paper, but imo is not that great in practice. Plus given how you can hoard grimmoires now, Per rest would be effectively gone when you assemble enough of them and this would make wizard highly item dependent. Not sure that I like it. This, OTOH, is a pretty cool idea. For what it's worth, here's a write up of a class that uses one of the alternative resource ideas: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77556-new-character-classes/?p=1674302

Ok another class idea. I think the game lacks a more interactive melee class. Monk is the closest match, but he is more "reactive" than "proactive" :D. Also chanter, but chanter is bit too passive and slow. Also, a frontline character that can tank not only by abusing the weak AI. Mystic Knight Resource: Energy. Starts each combat with 4*level (which is max). Endurance: 36+12*level Accuracy: 25+3*level Deflection: 25 Health: 5*Endurance Class features: Strikes and Powers. Powers are utility spells. Strikes are configurable melee attacks (full attack). Much like chants, they are edited though a menu. Each strike consists from up to 4 components and there can be 4 strike types prepared. Initially only 1 component can be used for Strikes. An additional one is added at levels 4, 8, and 12. Both Strikes and powers cost energy. All strikes have an innate +10 accuracy modifier and Average Speed. Starting talent: Tap life force. Refill your energy pool to maximum by subtracting 5 health per energy point recovered. health is taken directly from the health pool without affecting endurance, unless current health is equal to endurance. It can never reduce health below 1 and only recovers a portion of energy if health is not sufficient. Instant speed. Progression: L1- +1 1st level Strike L2- +1 1st level Power L3- +1 1st level Strike L4- +1 1st level Power, +1 Strike component limit L5- +1 2nd level Strike L6- +1 2nd level Power L7- +1 2nd level Strike L8- +1 2nd level Power, +1 Strike component limit L9- +1 3rd level Strike L10- +1 3rd level Power L11- +1 3rd level Strike L12- +1 3rd level Power, +1 Strike component limit Strikes: Level 1: Corrosive Strike - Physical damage converted to Corrode. +1 Energy cost. Fire Strike - Physical damage converted to Fire. +1 Energy cost. Lightning Strike - Physical damage converted to Lightning. +1 Energy cost. Frost Strike - Physical damage converted to Frost. +1 Energy cost. (All elemental strikes are affected by elemental talents) Thrust - Push target 5m, +1 Energy cost. Crippling Strike - Hobble for 15 sec. +1 Energy cost Dazzling Strike - Daze for 15 sec. +1 Energy cost Level 2: Forceful Strike - Strike can target Fortitude, if it's the lowest of all defenses it can target. +2 Energy cost Telekinetic Strike - Strike can target Reflex, if it's the lowest of all defenses it can target. +2 Energy cost Withering Strike - Weaken for 15 sec. +2 Energy cost Blinding Strike - Blind for 15 sec. +2 Energy cost Knockdown Strike - Prone for 6 sec. +2 Energy cost Critical Strike - +0.5 critical damage multiplier. Can be stacked multiple times. +2 Energy cost. Mighty Strike - +20% damage. Can be stacked multiple times. +2 Energy cost Resonating Strike - energy bursts from the original target to 2 additional foes within 5m, dealing 66% of the original damage. Can be stacked multiple times for additional +2 targets. +2 Energy cost. Accurate Strike: +5 strike accuracy. Can be stacked multiple times. +2 Energy cost. Level 3: Paralyzing Strike - Paralyze for 6 sec. +4 Energy cost Ghostly Strike - Ignore 50% DT. +4 Energy cost Drain Might/Constitution/Dexterity/Perception/Intelligence/Resolve - -6 to select stat for 15 sec. +4 Energy cost. Shadow Strike - Teleport to target (melee weapon only). +4 Energy cost Fast Strike - Improves strike speed to Fast. +4 Energy cost Powers Level1: Focus - +15 accuracy for 10 sec. 4 Energy. Fast Arcane shield - +15 to Deflection and Reflex for 10 sec. 4 Energy. Instant Threaten - +2 engagement limit and +3DT for 30 sec. 4 Energy. Instant Surge - +3 movement speed and +20 defense against disengagement for 30 sec. 4 Energy. Fast Tactical blink - Switch positions with the targeted ally. 4 Energy. Fast Level2: Shockwave - 2m aoe, centered on caster, Prone vs Fortitude (+10 acc) for 5 sec. 8 Energy. Fast Pull - teleport targeted enemy to caster (if there's space available) vs Will (+10 acc). 8 Energy. Fast Shackles - 1.25m aoe, Stuck for 10 sec vs Will (+10 acc). 8 Energy. Average Telekinetic shield - Shield on target that absorbs up to 100 damage, exploding for damage taken/4 when it wears off or is broken and pushing nearby enemies 5m back. 15 sec duration. 8 Energy. Average Blink - teleport to targeted location. 8 Energy. Fast. Level3: Time bubble. - 3m aoe, aura. Enemies in aoe get -2 speed and -30% attack speed vs Will (+10 accuracy). Allies get +20 deflection against ranged attacks. 30 sec duration. 16 Energy. Average Bladestorm - Get +50% attack speed for 20 sec. 16 Energy. Fast Bind - For 30 sec, every 5 sec targeted foe is teleported to the caster if he's more than 1m away and the caster gets a disengagement attack against him. +15 accuracy vs Will. 16 Energy. Average. Greater Arcane Shield - +25 to all defenses for 20 sec. 16 Energy. Fast.

Wizards may have been less boring if metamagic was the core class concept -- if they were something like a Warlock with more flexibility and Vancian spell limitations. While I agree that metamagic is fun and would make wizards more fun, I don't see how wizards are boring. Are you bored of all Vancian spellcasters? They're definitely more fun than autoattack classes. Cipher is probably more fun, mainly because he both uses abilities more often AND a lot of his spells require you to be more creative with positioning and application. I'd say wizards would be more fun if they had more diverse spells and more highly specialized but extremely effective in certain condition spells (this would also give some meaning to having multiple grimmoires).

As for resource mechanics, I think one of the option would be to introduce a per rest pool, not unlike health, with per encounter limit on how much you can spend for some class and get rid of spell "levels" and move to costs. Basically a per rest mana pool with per encounter limit. This would limit the "nova" potential while giving more flexibility in terms of casting. Another interesting option would be to give some starting amount of resource, not unlike cipher, but not allow any additional generation without tapping into some "per rest" pool like health. So you can use a few abilities for free and if you want more you get taxed. In fact, I'm gonna write down a class idea based on that for fun. But as I said, I like existing classes as is, some new unique ones would be cool for PoE2 though.

Not an elf or moonlike :/. -1.

You can build a decently tanky DD if you chose so. You want to be super tanky AND deal top damage? Balance man is upset with you.

Tbh I think wizard's grimmoires should either be ditched or some new mechanics (like metamagic) should be introduced fro them to make sense. As for cipher being OP, he might be on low-mid levels, although he's quite squishy to compensate. At high levels, when priests and wizards have a lot more spells per day and much more powerful effects available to them. They were much more important for tough encounters in my party playthrough. Also, wait for the expansion when fireballs are per encounter at level 13 (unless Obsidian decides to completely rework the system, which I doubt) and see how's cipher OP then. Personally I enjoy Vancian casters and I think they're fine apart form some gimmicky mechanics like wizards grimmoire and some spell balance problems, with only a handful of spells useful per level. As for martial classes, yes, they are low maintenance, but I don't see much wrong with having a low maintenance class. You're playing with a party of 6, 6 wizards would be a lot of clicking. I've played with 4.5 casters (I count chanter as 0.5) and that was more than enough for my liking. You have a freedom to chose how much micromanagement you want in your party and compose it accordingly. Some minor improvements for martial classes per encounter abilities are imo in order though (Rogue's high level strikes are bloody useless for instance).

Some more for the classes I omitted in my initial post: Rogue: Misdirection: 1/encounter - Targets an ally. Rogue becomes invisible until he attacks or until the targeted ally is knocked out. Targeted ally gains +1 engagement slot. Long activation time. (Would also make a good cipher spell alternatively. Basically per encounter invisibility that is not as abuseable as shadowing beyond solo, with some extra utility on top). Overwhelming assault - Passive. Hits inflict -10 accuracy on target for 5 sec. Fighter Bodyguard - transfer 25% damage dealt to allies in 2m radius to self. Modal. Ranger Bonded rage - Replaces bonded grief. Gives +33% attack speed for 15 seconds instead. Longshot - gain damage bonus proportional to the distance to the target for a max +30% at 12m.

Yeah, I know. Will take a long time to max it out though. As I said, paladin has better perma defenses (which get better as the game progresses), fighter may have better temporary defences + constant recovery.

Paladin has (overall) better permanent defences with Faith & Conviction, fighter has better defences with Vigorous Defence for a short time, albeit bit too short if you dump int. Wary defender doesn't stack with cautious attack, but it is much better, because it's 15 deflect and 10 will/ref/fort (+irrelevant for solo engagement slot modifier). So it's pretty much equivalent to a paladin with Cautious Attack and basic Faith and Conviction (Paladin will pull ahead by getting reputation). Constant recovery is pretty great anyway since it perfectly stacks with moon godlike and allows you tap your health resources even more in tough fights.