MadDemiurg

Theoretically immunities can work well, but in practice most systems and environments tend to favor specific damage types and effects and having permanent immunities only exaggerates the issue (like the aforementioned NWN sneak attack issues).

I was expecting this reply. Anyway, all I ended up doing was repositioning my Cipher in the group (I use kind of an upside down cross formation with the tank one character space further ahead) so that he was on one of the sides instead of the middle. It made opening up with multiple Mind Lances much easier in dungeons. So much so that for many trash packs, I'd just pull with him too. Your numbers perfectly showed what you want a Rogue for. You have your three casters and your Rogue. All three of them have roughly dealt the same damage over the course of the game. But what is the one big difference? Your casters deal AoE damage. Whenever they cast a spell, they rack up damage by hitting four, five, six enemies at the same time, all of them contributing to the overall dealt damage. All the while your Rogue needs to attack one target at a time. Yet your Rogue managed to deal the same overall damage that all your other classes dealt by dealing their damage to multiple enemies at the same time. Simplified example: for every 10 damage your casters dealt to five enemies, your Rogue dealt 50 damage to a single enemy. What do you want your Rogues for? To burst down single targets. Enemy casters, bosses, dragons. All the stuff you don't want to stand too long. To be fair, most of rogue's damage compared to wizard comes from trash encounters where wizard barely casts anything (or probably spams low level CC later on on levels 9+). If wizard wants to do burst on a single target in a boss fight, he'll beat a rogue in this as well. OP's cipher numbers are just way suboptimal since ciphers can use offensive spells in trash encounters throughout the whole game. By the endgame AW spam alone deals like 5x damage of the ranged rogue.

I'm on the opposite side of the fence. I like (permanent) immunities exactly because they render specific builds completely ineffective (allright, I'll give you that sneak attack in NWN and the plethora of undead was a nuisance. But it was a GOOD nuisance). The way it is now, you can just find "the build" that will "stomp everything" and make a one-trick-pony that works against everything. No need to change approach, figure out if maybe some other spells are good, etc. It all just becomes a game of cookie-cutter builds, single item/weapon usage throughout the whole game, one-trick-ponies, etc. No variation, and a lot of min-maxing. On the other hand, if the game had mind immune mobs every now and then, I might actually have to switch from my CC grimoire to my damage grimoire on my wizard. If I encountered physically immune enemies, then I can't just lean back and rely on my rogue being the physical incarnation of the Reaper anymore. Where is my rustmonster, the most unholy dreaded fear of all fighters, which turns anything metal into dust? I could go on, but I hope my point is clear. Unique and weird enemies makes you think, try new spells, weapons and tactics. Now all monsters and all combat is quite like every other enemy and fight in the entire game. For me it encourages a homogenized builds that rely on the most "stable" effects, like the least resisted damage types and probably straight up DPS instead of CC because who knows what the next mob will be immune to. Unique encounters can be easily designed without resorting to permanent immunities. I agree that encounter design is too bland in PoE atm, but that's an issue with the encounters, not immunities or the lack of them. For instance enemies with monk talent to reflect ranged misses back would make ranged rogue oneshot himself (but are bypassable since you can lower their defenses so you don't miss) and likewise some enemies may have monk's talent to halve CC duration making your CC less effective (but not utterly useless). Enemies casting arcane reflection would make you rethink offensive spell use etc...

I can think of very few situations where you only have one possible damage type at your disposal in a party based RPG. And if you've gotten yourself into such a situation, well then maybe you deserve to die. If you're in such a situation but have min-maxed your burly crushing damage hammer guy and you want to be able to inefficiently hammer incorporeal entities, I suppose it's OK to have a system that caters to that. But I don't see that as being in huge demand. If you're looking for reasons to include immunities on enemies: 1) So that you can look in the combat log and see (X is immune to slashing) and immediately understand what you're doing wrong. Alternatively you're left guessing; maybe you're doing a little bit of damage and aren't sure if it's the DR or just bad rolls. 2) Lore. Fire elementals can be killed by fire? I suppose it depends on what they're really made of but generally a total immunity would be logical. Same goes for blinding skeletons, knocking down dragons, mind controlling fungus (you'd have to be a pretty skilled cipher). 1) You can see DR values in the log 2) Don't care about it much tbh Full immunity would force player to adjust, to be flexible. Hypothetical Fire Wizard a) does not exist, not here nor in IE games, as there are always other spells b) well, if one choses to be specialized it implies limitations by definition. Its not like specialization has only advantages. All this exists in context. There is nothing wrong with meeting golems for first time only to find out that your weapons cant hurt them and you need to figure out a puzzle. Fail of Ages was fun puzzle. There is also nothing wrong with picking 2H at level 1 and killing boss with 2H level 12 without ever being forced to switch because nobody is immune, game is not too difficult and buffs/debuffs will do the job regardless. I guess it could be argued that system with no immunities adds to replay ability as its not possible, as mentioned in OP, to figure out the puzzle to trivialize encounters. Question is, if encounters, and essentially whole game play, are not trivialized even without immunities because there is nothing forced upon player, nothing to solve. Depends on the game. Immunities annoyed me to no end in Dragon Age inquisition (which is a crap game, but this is another story :D) and there you only have a handful of spells, so not being able to use like half of them is a pretty big deal. Also lame boss design where the only thing that works is straight up tanking and dps because no CC or even debuffs actually work. I would hate to see smth like this here. Even in PoE, let's say wizard has fire and ice as his most damaging elements. Picking scion of flame & Secrets of Rime and then running into a mob with full immunity to these would be pretty lame. "Figuring out the encounter" can be done in different ways and does not require immunities. It's already present to certain extent in PoE where enemies have different forms of CC, different resists etc. I would rather see this impoved in a direction that encourages dynamic use of counter abilities like priest prayers, arcane reflection etc rather than simply tossing an undispellable immunity on every foe. Personally i felt will/ref/fort/deflection differences on mobs enough to warrant switching tactics, especially solo. 6 man party can use anything because 6 man party is just too OP atm. I think DT values can be tuned a bit, so damage types play a bit larger role though.

Because it's still possible to deal with it using inefficient methods if you don't have any other, thus not negating your build completely if you happen to focus on these. You can also debuff DT etc. What good would a full immunity do?

If you're specifically building for the dragon fight, weapon focus is kinda useless since it will take ages to kill the dragon with a toothpick. Defensive talents are a solid choice. If you plan to keep at range you mostly need reflex, its melee attacks can target deflection and fortitude so don't try to melee if you don't have these through the roof as well. Adragans can attack fortitude and will with impressive accuracy as well, fortunately they are not that difficult to dispatch. Unfortunately, they can screw you up with a single cast. Be sure you have deep pockets if you haven't picked them by now.

Without arguing in favor of immunities, I will say that I think that this is a good example of why more generalized builds, particularly for spellcasters, are better than specialists. From a melee perspective, it'd be like building up a warrior who specialized in swords (i.e. slashing weapons) and then coming up against some bad guys wearing plate armor, which is highly resistant to slashing weapons. If you don't carry a single blunt weapon on this character, your swordmaster is going to be in for a really difficult fight trying to use the very weapons your enemy's defenses defenses are strongest against. Whether it's a swordmaster or an fire wizard, eventually you will run up against an enemy whose defenses are strongest against your specialty. And if your character refuses to be at least a little more generalized, those fights will be rather difficult for him/her. Pretty much. But in case of no complete immunities you're not completely screwed in this case. If immunities were a thing, said situation against fire/slash immune opponent would be much more punishing.

And what is Average accuracy if not average ? Paladin is a proficient weapon user. He has the same Accuracy as a Barbarian, for example. By default, Barbarian only deals more damage with carnage. Fighter has high accuracy. Paladin has high accuracy. Barbarian actually has 5 less base accuracy than both. Paladin and fighter deal exactly same damage without abilities and talents.

You can't force fighter to use defender either (although not using it would be stupid). Guardian is a trash skill. not a commonly used skill. Paladin also needs to invest in offensive skills to deal any damage above the baseline - Zealous Focus over Endurance, FoD over LoH, Sworn Enemy over Exhortations. Without extra skills damage is exactly the same for both classes.

The cipher and wizard in the party. can blind, flank, and paralyze. Which gets you automatic sneak attack. You want all of them crits to be sneak attacks/deathblows as well. I would probably go soldier. You can use the Arbalest and the Arquebus. Once they fix the Speed Mod on weapons the 1st Arbalest you see will probably be one of the best ranged weapons in the game. If not you have the Wrecker as well. And the Arquebus are extremely good as well. Especially 2 of the named ones. Or go Crossbow, the Wendgar has 10% crit chance (your chance can get upto 40% if you go orlan) and speed mods once the devs patch it. To take advantage of crits you want to bring out the biggest damage dealer. Since the Game Engine uses Percentages for everything you want a high base damage to start with. So then you can apply lash damage, talent damage, crit damage, sneak attack/death blow damage etc. My Rogue was a sniper just 1 shotting enemies all the time. Just make sure that wizard or cipher are doing some kind of AoE debuff for to activate sneak attack/deathblow. Then you can swap out penetrating shot for gunner. And again once the Elemental Talents are fixed by devs you could take one of them as well to increase damage. There is also an accuracy boosting item you can drop on your Rogue as well. Then anything that improves Rogue's critical chance or critical damage multiplier. I don't really understand how the game engine using a percentage for everything favors slower, harder hitting weapons. Sure, each crit will do more damage, but you're also going to hit (crit) much less often with either the Arbalest or Arquebus and often when you do it would be overkill and completely unecessary other than for an opening shot. I used to actually do all opening shots with an Arbalest and then switch to the War Bow, but eventually it just felt like too much busywork and not needed at all. Also, when you mention other classes using spells that add debilitations, you're just suggesting limiting their own damage for a utility spell as if it's actually going to help the group damage overall more than simply doing 60 - 80+ damage to 5+ enemies at the start. It's not. The Rogue is single target damage and will be single target the entire fight, and they aren't going to make up for the AoE damage the other classes can do on larger fights. The enemies are usually already blinded from Chill Fog anyway, and the Rogue can add a secondary defuff by themselves for the extra Deathblow damage. The only time I ever bothered to add long lasting debuffs were on boss fights, and those were rare. FWIW, almost all of the attacks the Rogue landed were at least normal Sneak Attacks for almost the entire game. I was expecting this reply. Anyway, all I ended up doing was repositioning my Cipher in the group (I use kind of an upside down cross formation with the tank one character space further ahead) so that he was on one of the sides instead of the middle. It made opening up with multiple Mind Lances much easier in dungeons. So much so that for many trash packs, I'd just pull with him too. I frequently used druid and wizard in the front formation in my first playthrough. Winter winds + Mind lance spam. Intercept with 2nd row if anything gets through. Pretty good cipher tactic is also casting ectopsychic echo on a monk, who runs into enemy backline eating disengagement attacks (moar wounds!) if needed, melting everything in between.

Mobs still have different levels of resistances to different damage types and attacks (deflection/will/fort/ref). Personally I never felt the need to optimise the damage types much even solo, but attacking weaker saves is a pretty common move. If the combat was harder damage type optimisation might also become necessary. Personally I don't like (permanent) immunities, since they render specific builds completely ineffective. What's the point in building a fire wizard if his spells don't work in significant number of encounters at all? I wouldn't mind temporary immunity buffs which you can dispel or wait out though.

KD is still > FoD any time of day. Defender is a vastly improved version of cautious attack basically (which paladin would also take). Guardian is not usable with Defender and is crap all things considered. You're forgetting weapon mastery, armored grace and confident aim which together make fighter a better offensive class than paladin imo.

As I said earlier, very little, and you seem to agree now. I would only ever use melee or hybrid rogue, otherwise wizard or cipher are better.

You do need to get rid of her or its no true solo.Moonlike is the best race by far, sorry but its a fact. :d Solo achievement is granted if you do not recruit anyone after Ciant Lys (or whatever it's called). If you feel like using her somehow breaks solo rules you can just park her in the corner of the map. Moonlike is OP, but for paladin wild orlan is probably better for really tough fights.

You don't need to kill Calisca or be a moon godlike to solo PotD .

Well, medium lore score would mean ~15 accuracy loss over maxed out, plus all buff scrolls would work exactly the same. This would only matter against tougher enemies, which I think is fair. There are only 5 scroll levels in the game though . And even 1st level scrolls are pretty powerful, although it might be more of low level vs high level scroll/spell balance issue.

That's a bit too situational . You have no problem resting throughout the game. I wouldn't rate build effectiveness based on the tutorial map performance. As for stats boost, yes. I just thought you were saying you get +8 from whores alone. And yes, fires are useful at the start no doubt, you have only 6 talents though and you also delay useful defensive talents with it. So you're effectively trading better mid/endgame for easier earlygame.

LoH has much more impact when it's used though, at least earlygame. If you swing 100 times in an encounter (likely more since your damage is "awesome") flames are 1% dps increase on average. I also wouldn't go moon as a paladin, wild orlan is better imo (depends on the fight though, but definitely better for dragons). If you have 8 CO and 7 Mi adra dragon and petrify mobs are gonna be very challenging if possible at all (you need sky high fort for them). +8 to stat? how? Most of them give like +2. Is there some stacking trick I don't know? Btw whores are not always free. It probably depends on some stat. Most likely Dex :D (my low dex main wasn't able to get their services for free).

It would have same accuracy as level 12 char @ 12 lore. 12 in a skill is not that easy to get (12 in mechanics makes you pour most of your levelup points into it). I do see a potential problem with low level chars however, where you can have much higher lore than your character level. Maybe base accuracy should be also a bit lower for scrolls.

If you dump intelligence you might as well skip the darcozzi talents - no need to bother with that duration. You also pick FoD over LoH to get it and the latter is better and much more consistent. Going without W&S style up to level 6 is asking for trouble on a tank build imo. My non solo Darcozzi build was: 17-18 Might, Int, Per, Res, min Con and Dex. For my solo attempt I used more Con and Dex and dumped Int (also used a different order). Talents/abilities (non solo) - 2 - W&S style 3 - Zealous focus 4 - Cautious attack 5 - Liberating 6 - Inspiring 7 - Sworn enemy 8 - Deep faith 9 - Reinforcing 10 - Superior deflection 11 - Hastening 12 - Bear's fortitude Ended up being a decent scroll/spellbind user. Had white spire as a backup weapon and opened fights with blizzard . On a solo build, If you waste talents on stuff like Fires of Darcozzi palace or weapon focus, you won't have enough defences to deal with endgame content like the last levels of Od Nua. For stroty only optimal build is not required really.

Again, the point is not making lore weaker, but rather removing high reward for a very minimal investment. If you put enough points into lore it would be just as strong. That's in line with how other skills work (you need a sizeable investment for good results). Right now even 2 points in lore is very strong. @Svirvenblin, scrotlecmb I think separating spell and weapon accuracy would be a good move for the system - this way cipher can have higher weapon and lower spell accuracy compared to wizard for instance (rather than having both higher atm). As for using this accuracy for scrolls - I don't think this is a good idea, since all classes should be equally rewarded by investing in the skill. So smth like 20 base (as most scrolls already have + accuracy on top) + 3 * lore + other modifiers for everyone would work fine imo.

You can't be serious about damage. Sworn enemy is like level 7. By level 9 cipher gets tac meld and/or borrowed instinct, negating any accuracy advantages paladin might have. Not mentioning the +40% damage that is always on and spells that do far more damage than any weapon. And the ability to target will/ref/fort and most enemies have at least one of these at much lower level than deflection. Darcozzi fire shield is alright for the fist few levels, but it's pretty much a dead talent later on. It doesn't help you to be tankier either, only dish out some damage in return (if it hits).

I've come to a conclusion that Lore is a bit OP atm, and even investing only a couple of points can give you access to powerful spells which you can cast at your max accuracy. I think scroll accuracy should scale off lore level rather than character level (e.g. it would be the same as currently at level 12 at 12 lore), as it currently happens with mechanics. Discuss.

Ranger can stun even on hits with any weapon against targets engaged by AC. Plus, stalker's link stacks with everything. Also, you likely won't be using devotions in every fight, in which case vicious aim would be nice. Swift aim penalty can be negated by a talent almost entirely (-2 remains), but it is not very good for weapons with no reload and you likely want fast weapons for stun proccing.

Tried a priest, don't have time for a vid yet, but pretty easy overall. Tactic is as follows (any char can use it, but priest has several advantages): Loadout: 10 x malestrom scrolls, 5 x paralysis scrolls 5 x valor scrolls (not needed, but since 1 takes a slot too might as well have 5), obsidian figurine, slot 6 is entirely optional, maybe another figurine just in case. Boots of speed are essential, rest of the gear doesn't matter much. Rotfinger gloves or gloves of accuracy might help. Run into the treasury. Everyone will aggro. (Eliminating adragans first as Kaylon did is probably a wiser move but we won't be doing it) Eliminate the xaurips. It is possible to do with priest spells, but would be faster with scrolls. Cast scroll of paralysis on Xaurips (they have low will so its a guaranteed hit). Cast 2xmalestrom scrolls on xaurips. Since they're paralyzed their reflex is abysmally low. They should be dead or almost dead. Finish off any that remain. Run deeper into the cave. Buff with crowns for the faithful, prayer against fear, champion's boon and devotions of the faithful. Finish with scroll of valor (lower duration). As the dragon approaches you need to stop her somehow. There are several options: 1) scroll of paralysis 2) halt spell (> 20 sec duration, since buffed up you have 30+ int) 3) summon with withdraw. 4) trap the path with repulsive seal When dragon is disabled proceed to pummel with scrolls of malestrom and/or priest spells. Your spell damage is very high under champion's boon. Adragans should still be way back, but if they appear use scroll of paralysis. If dragon somehow breaks the CC just back up and recast. When dragon is dead proceed to finish off remaining adragans protected with prayer against treachery/imprisonment. Rebuff other stuff if needed. Good combo for cleanup is shades + sparks of the righteous (heavy lightning damage and interrupt under champion's boon) Think more or less similar tactic can be used with many classes, but priest has several advantages: High accuracy with devotions of the faithful. The only classes that can compete are cipher, ranger and paladin No need to use potions of recovery and/or scrolls of prayer against fear since you can cast it yourself - one extra quick slot Very high spell/scroll damage with champion's boon - no contest for scrolls, spells like shining beacon or electric seal also hit like truck High CC duration with crowns for the faithful - no one can get Int as high as a priest Multiple options for path blocking/CC - only one is really needed but options are nice. Seals are pretty much impossible to resist once you buff up. Can make himself almost immune to adragan CC if needed and overall buffed saves are pretty insane. I might record a vid if I feel like it on the weekend, will post it in some other thread though.