MadDemiurg

Not sure this is reachable even if you min/max. Maybe with buffs from priest/chanter. Well, for reference, you need something like 158 for the Adra dragon to only ever graze or miss you on PotD. I'm pretty sure that pre-buffing and without any of the single defense-boosting talents, a balanced set of defences defenses tops out at approximately 165/115/140/115, +/-5 or so. Dunno how high they can get once you start throwing buffs on. 158 is for weapon attacks. Most (if not all) of his attacks are abilities and get +12 accuracy bonus for lvl 12. So it's 170 actually, as Kaylon correctly noted.

That doesn't mean anything to be fair. It only means that you have suboptimal companions and/or don't micro them as much. You can solo the game with a paladin and he'll have more kills and more damage done. My hired Cipher in a party PotD playthrough had more damage done at the end for what it's worth since I got lazy at the end of the game and only spammed amplified wave. If I bothered to drop some blizzards and fan of flames on top, druid and wizard would keep up just fine as they did in the middle of the game.

Not sure this is reachable even if you min/max. Maybe with buffs from priest/chanter.

Sneak attacks are only +50% dmg. Many other classes have comparable +dmg and +attack speed modifiers. Not to mention abilities/spells. That's not that huge. 20% hit to cit conversion is like 10% extra dps for a talent and a class ability. And yeah, I don't really see the point of rogue without reckless assault, would rather roll a cipher or maybe even ranger(regardless of the multitude of complaints on how underpowered they are compared to rogues) instead.

Honestly I don't see where this "uber rogue dps" everyone's talking about is coming from, especially if you use a ranged rogue. Is it because the loading tooltip says they do the most damage? This is not true. The only really good rogue features are SA (don't see the issue with it requiring debuffs tbh, they are easy to come by), Reckless assault (melee only) and Deathblows (great, but this is lvl 11). Shadowing beyond is good for solo cheese (i'd rather have it only working in a party, but more accessible, like per encounter), but otherwise negligible. The rest of the kit is either mediocre or outright trash.

Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot. To sum up: There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though. Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"? With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks. Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage. Well, you can have fun with any class composition, but this is a balance thread, so purely from powergaming perspective priest is a better support. I'm actually making an RP playthrough with a PC paladin. Doesn't mean they are good. Doesn't mean I'm not having fun. My first playthrough was Priest, Druid, Wizard, Cipher, Chanter, Fighter. Fighter was then switched for a 2nd Cipher or a 2nd Chanter with varying success. Chanters with Dragon Trashed are far from garbage btw, but they are just static aoe dps with no micro, hence quite boring. From a purely powergaming perspective, anything other than the priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and monk is garbage. A level 9 ability that does 40 slashing + 40 burning every 12 seconds vs. reflex, with a max accuracy of 70 at level 12, which does not scale with might or INT, is completely eclipsed by the druid, BTW. From a purely powergaming perspective, thats garbage. Well, tbh 80 damage DoT is not too shabby even if you compare it with druid/priest DoT's. Druid can do more burst, yes, but this is pretty good at wearing down/finishing off big crowds and is free (it also does fully stack with druid DoTs unlike paladin auras and priest spells). It also kinda scales with INT (aoe) and I haven't seen it miss tbh, so I think it actually doesn't have an attack roll (Don't have the game to check it atm). The fact that it doesn't scale with might can be seen as a pro since you can dump it an go full tank stats. Chanter is one of the best solo classes because of this. This is going a bit offtopic however.

Ranged flanking works if other 2 characters (or phantom forces) do the flanking.

Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot. To sum up: There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though. Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"? With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks. Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage. Well, you can have fun with any class composition, but this is a balance thread, so purely from powergaming perspective priest is a better support. I'm actually making an RP playthrough with a PC paladin. Doesn't mean they are good. Doesn't mean I'm not having fun. My first playthrough was Priest, Druid, Wizard, Cipher, Chanter, Fighter. Fighter was then switched for a 2nd Cipher or a 2nd Chanter with varying success. Chanters with Dragon Trashed are far from garbage btw, but they are just static aoe dps with no micro, hence quite boring.

*groan* you didn't. that is the problem. duh. HA! Good Fun! Well, let's agree to disagree, I'm kinda tired too.

doesn't really matter. the aura is persistent and requires no initial casting-- significant advantages but hardly earth shaking. regardless, the ability does stack and stack effective. ...I actually was being sarcastic when I said it is awesome. The only thing that stacks effectively there are priest spells. Paladin is not providing +6 accuracy if a priest uses blessing, it is +1, which is nothing really. All paladin provides is +1 accuracy and +5% hit to crit. No synergy. Effectively anti synergy since you're overriding part of the blessing's effect. The only use for this is to actually AVOID casting blessing, which frees up some casting time for priest, and I would probably go this way if I had a zealous focus paladin (provided paladin's aura even reaches the back row, which is not always the case). Even then, if comparing zealous focus vs blessing directly, blessing is better since +15% dmg > 5% hit to crit, and +1 accuracy doesn't make up for it. So all it does is basically saving ~3sec of priest's casting time. You know, you can have a 2nd priest in place to cast ALL buffs twice as fast effectively. The fact that it's persistent hardly matters on mid-high levels. actually, at mid and high levels it is increasingly important. the developers played fast and loose with the casting times o' some foes at the start o' scripted battles. am not sure why enemies can get off spells almost instantaneously-- is more than a few such situations. our casters has been interrupted (or worse) at the start o' battles. so, with a paladin and a priest sharing the work, both characters can be doing something else during those precious seconds... and we need not have to worry 'bout recasting either. no casting time at all for the paladin, so even more is accomplished with the paladin and priest combo. but go ahead, keep ignoring the fact that you were wrong AND pretending it ain't a very useful combination. is funny. is particular funny since you thought you had made some kinda revelation without realizing you is simple the last in a considerable line o' obtuse posters who even once informed o' their error, continue on undeterred. funny. HA! Good Fun! ps what is it about the paladin threads that has folks abandoning their reason? is just plain weird. ...Where did I say I've made some revelation? I've just pointed out that Zealous charge is the only aura that is not largely made redundant by priest spells, which i still stand by. Recasting is hardly an issue on high Int priest, battles don't last that long. For trash battles you don't need the buffs, so limited uses are also mostly not an issue (and basic priest spells become per encounter @lvl 9). If your priest is getting CC'd right at the start of the fight you're having bigger problems than not being able to get that +6 accuracy buff. I haven't seen fights where I wasn't able to counter it with my own CC though. Seems to me I'm not the one who's being ignorant here. is funny. you tell us how quick the battles are at higher difficulties, but you don't see the advantage o' a persistent aura with no need for casting. keep at it though. oh, and have you admitted that you were wrong? btw, this is where you initial shared your (misinformed) revelation http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77839-are-paladins-really-not-that-bad/?p=1670284 thanks for letting us know. you then followed it up by telling us you had tested priestly stacking with paladin auras. afterwards you informed us that you had searched the forums for examples o' priestly abilities stacking with zealous focus and found nothing. you told us all kinda wonderfully wrong stuff. is tough to keep up with just how mistaken you are. HA! Good Fun! I'm starting to think you have comprehension problems. Where did I admit I was wrong? My initial (misinformed as you say) opinion that you linked still stands. All other auras are made largely redundant by priest spells as pointed out by me and many other people before. If you consider 5% hit to crit stacking significant enough - good for you. I said from the get go that it might stack, but is largely negligible. I see the advantage of no need for casting, it is not large enough to validate paladin's presence in the party. As I said already, it saves ~3sec of priest casting time. If you think this is enough to warrant a paladin - well, ok... Yep, battles are pretty fast but they are not 3sec fast. HA! Not even fun already!

...I actually was being sarcastic when I said it is awesome. The only thing that stacks effectively there are priest spells. Paladin is not providing +6 accuracy if a priest uses blessing, it is +1, which is nothing really. All paladin provides is +1 accuracy and +5% hit to crit. No synergy. Effectively anti synergy since you're overriding part of the blessing's effect. The only use for this is to actually AVOID casting blessing, which frees up some casting time for priest, and I would probably go this way if I had a zealous focus paladin (provided paladin's aura even reaches the back row, which is not always the case). Even then, if comparing zealous focus vs blessing directly, blessing is better since +15% dmg > 5% hit to crit, and +1 accuracy doesn't make up for it. So all it does is basically saving ~3sec of priest's casting time. You know, you can have a 2nd priest in place to cast ALL buffs twice as fast effectively. The fact that it's persistent hardly matters on mid-high levels. actually, at mid and high levels it is increasingly important. the developers played fast and loose with the casting times o' some foes at the start o' scripted battles. am not sure why enemies can get off spells almost instantaneously-- is more than a few such situations. our casters has been interrupted (or worse) at the start o' battles. so, with a paladin and a priest sharing the work, both characters can be doing something else during those precious seconds... and we need not have to worry 'bout recasting either. no casting time at all for the paladin, so even more is accomplished with the paladin and priest combo. but go ahead, keep ignoring the fact that you were wrong AND pretending it ain't a very useful combination. is funny. is particular funny since you thought you had made some kinda revelation without realizing you is simple the last in a considerable line o' obtuse posters who even once informed o' their error, continue on undeterred. funny. HA! Good Fun! ps what is it about the paladin threads that has folks abandoning their reason? is just plain weird. ...Where did I say I've made some revelation? I've just pointed out that Zealous charge is the only aura that is not largely made redundant by priest spells, which i still stand by. Recasting is hardly an issue on high Int priest, battles don't last that long. For trash battles you don't need the buffs, so limited uses are also mostly not an issue (and basic priest spells become per encounter @lvl 9). If your priest is getting CC'd right at the start of the fight you're having bigger problems than not being able to get that +5/6 accuracy buff. I haven't seen fights where I wasn't able to counter it with my own CC though. Seems to me I'm not the one who's being ignorant here. Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot. To sum up: There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though.

...I actually was being sarcastic when I said it is awesome. The only thing that stacks effectively there are priest abilities (blessing & radiance). Paladin is not providing +6 accuracy if a priest uses blessing, it is +1, which is nothing really. All paladin provides is +1 accuracy and +5% hit to crit. No synergy. Effectively anti synergy since you're overriding part of the blessing's effect. The only use for this is to actually AVOID casting blessing, which frees up some casting time for priest, and I would probably go this way if I had a zealous focus paladin (provided paladin's aura even reaches the back row, which is not always the case). Even then, if comparing zealous focus vs blessing directly, blessing is better since +15% dmg > 5% hit to crit, and +1 accuracy doesn't make up for it. So all it does is basically saving ~3sec of priest's casting time. You know, you can have a 2nd priest in place instead of the paladin to cast ALL buffs twice as fast effectively. The fact that it's persistent hardly matters on mid-high levels.

Int is also useful for LoH and exhortations duration. Plus it's a good conversation stat is you use this as PC.

the crit bonus is not as insignificant as you make it seem, particular as it is potential party-wide and persistent, but for funsies, add in the actual full range o' bonuses from the first level priest spell you wanted to dismiss as being overridden by zealous foucs: bless. is probable the poor reading skills that made you overlook something important. so, inspiring radiance + zealous focus+ bless results in what kinda synergy from combination o' persistent aura, a per encounter ability and a lowly first level priest spell... but again, this is all repeated. you were wrong. dead wrong. horribly and morbidly wrong 'cause you didn't bother genuine looking for answers even after you were informed that you were wrong. HA! Good Fun! It's very nice of you to turn to personal insults when you run out of actual arguments. I've looked through this thread again in search for revelation but found none. Let's see: Blessing + Zealous focus + Inspiring radiance... +5 accuracy blessing (overridden by +6 from focus), +15% dmg blessing, +5 accuracy radiance (stacks with everything), +5% hit to crit focus (as discussed 2-3% dps effectively) for a total of +11 accuracy, +15% damage and +5% hit to crit. Let's see what the Paladin is providing here: +1 accuracy and +5% hit to crit. Sounds like an awesome synergy to me. Good Fun!

Monk seems to keep its MAD problems from D&D seeing how you also want constitution as it's effectively your "mana pool"

I was going to mention the cipher with tactical meld. Seems to be on the same level (base 5 lower but +20 vs +15)

Fighter is pretty obvious because of no actives. This doesn't reflect the real situation though, for instance monk can CC the fighter for extended period of time which would likely tip the scale.

Ok, doing a search rendered references to some wonky bugs like zealous focus stacking with itself which I have not encountered in my playthroughs or stuff I've already tested myself. To summarize (again): Zealous focus accuracy bonus doesn't stack with accuracy spells (apart from spells that give +melee/ranged accuracy like devotions of the faithful or borrowed instinct, which are a different effect and stack with accuracy spells themselves). Crit conversion bonus DOES stack, but it's very small. Zealous endurance doesn't stack with armor of faith or wood skin Zealous charge likely does not stack with speed spells (didn't test), but these are relatively rare (wiz self buffs) and it does stack with chants because chants DO stack with spells Darcozzi unique accuracy buff does stack with spells. Likewise, Reinforcing exhortation deflection buff also stacks with spells. Finally smth decent.

Solid build, although I probably wouldn't dump might completely as it affects your healing (even if it's only LoH, for moon godlike it's also their racial) and you have enough hp anyway. For the last talent, nothing spectacular, but maybe Bull's Fortitude since it's your worst save and getting petrified sucks.

Lead splitter is much much better than 2 exceptional ones though (which also cost a fair bit of money). That's what i was talking about - hard to find 4 more or less equally good weapons from 1 group.

... where does all the misinformation come from, or is it nothing more than that folks extrapolate hasty conclusions from shoddy premises? is any number o' ways to get the auras to stack with various effects and spells. priests have a number o' ways o' enhancing aspects o' the paladins' zealous focus, making the combination o' the two support classes working in concert particularly formidable. unfortunately, in each paladin thread we needs necessarily deal with the same misapprehensions again and again and again and againandagaianandagainanadagainanadagain... am s'posing as a timesaver you could simple look up eubatham posts in previous paladin threads and see where he were corrected 'bout crit calculations and stacking and that sorta thing. HA! Good Fun! I tested everything myself, thank you very much. Zealous focus doesn't stack with accuracy buff spells. It's hit-to-crit enhancement might (didn't test), but 5% hit to crit is not that great for a talent, even party wide. Well, if you have nothing else to pick then maybe. It does stack with +ranged/melee accuracy buffs which seem to be a different effect. Priest has both types however. Lvl 1 priest accuracy buff doesn't stack with zealous focus. Zealous endurance doesn't stack with armor of faith at all. again, do a search. being ignorant is not a crime. being willfull ignorant is unforgivable. you are correct that level 1 bless accuracy boost does not stack with zealous focus. and from that you extrapolate a general rule o' application? do the search. honest. HA! Good Fun! As I said, critical boost might stack (and probably does) but you're effectively picking 1 class ability and a talent for 5% hit to crit conversion which is like 2% dps increase effectively, even though it's party wide.

... where does all the misinformation come from, or is it nothing more than that folks extrapolate hasty conclusions from shoddy premises? is any number o' ways to get the auras to stack with various effects and spells. priests have a number o' ways o' enhancing aspects o' the paladins' zealous focus, making the combination o' the two support classes working in concert particularly formidable. unfortunately, in each paladin thread we needs necessarily deal with the same misapprehensions again and again and again and againandagaianandagainanadagainanadagain... am s'posing as a timesaver you could simple look up eubatham posts in previous paladin threads and see where he were corrected 'bout crit calculations and stacking and that sorta thing. HA! Good Fun! I tested everything myself, thank you very much. Zealous focus doesn't stack with accuracy buff spells. It's hit-to-crit enhancement might (didn't test), but 5% hit to crit is not that great for a talent, even party wide. Well, if you have nothing else to pick then maybe. It does stack with +ranged/melee accuracy buffs which seem to be a different effect. Priest has both types however. Lvl 1 priest accuracy buff doesn't stack with zealous focus. Zealous endurance doesn't stack with armor of faith at all.

Cmon ! THINK :D Finishing Blows = Level 5 DeathBlows - 11 also i think rogue had Bloody Slaughter too not only Finishing Blows so damage multiplyer went crazy this was done with lvl 7 party with paladin pc lvl 8 i think because rogue had exceptional boressaine I misread finishing blow for deathblow. Imo finishing blow is kinda gimmicky since if you got smth to 25% it's pretty much dead anyway.

Dweller at level 11? I did it level 5. Cipher can do like 300+ damage per cast on level 11.

Tbh I don't see how ranged rogue is any good either. 50% damage from SA isn't making it and reckless assault is melee only. Deathblow is lvl11 and while quite good, by lvl 11 nuclear warfare takes over while rogue is still shooting its medieval guns.