Dark Moth

Evidence of tamepring? I was simply giving a link telling you how the who Trinity thing got started. As for tampering I don't think I need to show evidence of that because its not that hard to find. Just look at the various "versions" of the Bible: http://www.hope.edu/academic/religion/band...INTRO/BIB_1.HTM And that is just the recent history. The christian bible has been translated, revised, retranslated, shortened, expanded, blah blah blah over the last 2000 years so much it just can't be taken as credible. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Just one thing: there are so many versions because the originial text was written in Hebrew and Greek. There are many ways and preferences to translate it into English, hence there are a lot of versions. But it does not imply tampering.

Why do you believe in God then if that's how you view things? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So... You find beleiving in God illogical and unreasonable? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No. I'm just asking Hades how he can believe in God if that's his view on life. I have no problem admitting not everything in the Bible can be proven with fact and logic. But why would one believe in god if everything must be proved by solid fact, which is what Hades is implying?

Why do you believe in God then if that's how you view things?

That proves absolutely nothing! Even in the link you provided, it gives no evidence of tampering. It was a council called together to interpret the scriptures and to make judgements based on that, not the other way around. OMG... if I have to point you to The Blind Men and the Elephant one more time, I might actually just put it in my signature. P.S. Allah means god. Its his name as much as God is God's name. So? That doesn't prove or disprove anything. The point is that each religion is different, but they worship the same being. Christians differently than Jews, and differently from Muslims. In order for you to hold the Trinity up as a different god, you have to say Jews also worship a different god. They don't, they just worship the same god in different ways. Islam sees that Trinity [Father, Son and the Holy Spirit – three persons in one God] contradicts the concept of the Oneness of God. This is which is taught by the revealed scriptures of God and categorically stated in the Bible itself. Please read the following verses - among others - emphasizing belief in the One and Only God: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord thy God is one Lord.” (Deuteronomy 6:4) “Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.” (Isaiah 44:6, You also have the following passages in the New Testament, in the words of Jesus Christ: “And Jesus answered him, the first of all the commandments is: Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is One Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these…” (Mark 12:29-31) “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3) Reference Nowhere in the Bible does it say that god is bound by anything. He is what he is, did you bother to read my post? Maybe, but understanding it - obviously not. I once again point out that you need to do your research. "Nu-uh! I say so." Yes, he loved the Egyptians when he buried them in the sea. Or when he rained fire on Saddam and Gommora. Or when he allowed Satan to test Job's loyalty. Or when he decreed that lying with another man as you would with a woman is a tremendous sin, worthy of death. Both religions have the same policy. "Embrace me, and my teachings as holy, otherwise you're out of the family." Again, Allah is personally responsible for Jesus. Heed your own advice, but not just to my posts, in your so-called research. "Because I said so." Intercessor is intercessor. God sent Jesus to save people. God sent Moses to save people. God sent Mohammed to save people. They all had the same message, God says do this and you will be saved, failure to do so means bad things. Blind man. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1/2. No crap Allah means "god"! I'm referring to the two separately so it's easier to tell when I'm talking about Islam and Christianity! And also, just because two people share names doesn't make them the same person. Otherwise, you'd have to say the Arabic pagan moon god "Allah" is the Allah of the Quran. 3. Of course it means something. If the Quran says that one faith is wrong, how can you be sure if the two gods are of the same nature? And as for the verses you listed, yes God is one God, but he manifests in three different ways. Islam teaches that Allah has only one form, one form only. No trinity. 4. Of course it does. And God is bound by his own nature to do things that are right. Whereas Allah can do whatever he wants, and is capricious. 5. In the Old Testament sense, before Jesus's sacrifice, it was punishment. Remember, God is also just. After Jesus's sacrfice, it was no longer necessary. And keep in mind, these were only specific peoples for crimes they had committed, not humanity in general. 67. Allah never intervenes personally. And no prophet was sent to save us in Jesus's sense. Jesus was the Messiah and God himself. Allah never did anything like that. And if you really studied Islam, you'd know what I'm talking about when I refer to doctrines. If you really studied Islam, you wouldn't need me to post verses. If you think I'm wrong, back it up with more than just calling me "blind man", otherwise you'll only make a fool out of yourself. And until you're ready to stop name calling, we don't have much more to discuss.

tsk tsk mothy, that isn't really biblical. Look at John chapter 1. Jesus has always been with God, and has always been God. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Jesus didn't come to earth before though, which is why they didn't know him and Judaism has no concept of a trinity.

That proves nothing, since Biblical scripture supports the idea of Jesus being God anyway. So it wasn't they who deified Jesus.

Okay, bad choice of words on my part. :"> Islam does borrow ideas from Christianity and Judaism, but the nature of the two Gods as well as how they relate to humans are different, as stated in the quote. And as for what I said in about the two faiths teaching radically different doctrines, if Shadowstrider really did study Islam, he'd know that already. It's not hard to see how the two faiths teach different things.

When did I say things like "wrong"? My whole point was just to say the two Gods were different. And Shadowstrider, I know perfectly well why you posted that link. No, I didn't read it because I'm not looking at this from the perspective of my religion alone. Also, here's a quote so you can understand my stance better: "I believe that the key isssue is the question of the nature of God and how He relates to His creatures; Islam and Christianity are, despite formal similiarities, worlds apart on that question." - Dr. Samuel Schlorff.

Oh goodie. Rather than actually listen, you do the old song and dance routine. Go read the Blind Men and the Elephant. Wholey untrue and inaccurate. I'm not sure what you mean by "knowable." In fact, the god of the old testament is purposefully elusive. Yahweh means "I am what I am." This is what he told Jacob, after they wrestled when Jacob asked his name. This was done to prevent Jacob from gaining power over him. According to the belief at the time, to know a god's name and invoke it was to gain power over that god and command it to do your bidding. The god of the old testament purposefully would not reveal it's name, in order to prevent this. You can know OF god, but you cannot know HIM/HER/IT. I fail to see how this proves anything. See the link I posted. Judeism does not embrace the Trinity. Support? I'm aware of no quote in scripture that says God is limited. In fact, it says he is infinitely perfect. As for Allah's no limit, both religion's have that. They are defined as infinitely perfect beings. In fact, in Islam, the belief is that humans can only understand 99 of Allah's attributes. The Bible says "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16 NKJV). The converse of this statement is that the rest of humanity will perish, that is, will go to hell without any other way of receiving His forgiveness for the sin they did not commit. "Say, if you love Allah, obey me (Muhammad), Allah will love you and forgive you your sins, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful" (3:31). According to Islam, the Allah is responsible for Jesus. "Behold! The Angels said : 'Oh Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee, chosen thee above all the women of all nations'", The Family of Imran : 42. This doesn't prove anything. All prophets are intercessors. They all teach a way to be saved in the eyes of their god. *Waits for more "proof."* <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1. The concept is that a human can be close to God himself, as you would a person. But here there is still a small part of God, since he is a deity, that humans do not know, hence his name. Allah on the other hand cannot be known on a human level. 2. God is spoken of as a being with intellect, emotion, and will. Allah is not to be understood as a prson, as it would lower him to the level of a man. 3. That was because it was before Jesus's coming. That was when it became a trinity. Islam teaches that those who believe in the trinity are blasphemers. Sura 5:73. 4. I meant that God is bound by his nature which means he will not do things that might make him imperfect, hence he cannot lie or do evil. Allah could easily lie or break promises, as he is not bound by any nature of any sort. As for the 99 aspects, you'll see they are things listed that Allah is not, not what he is. 5. Ah ah - Not loving in the same way as the bible. In Islam, Allah can only love you if you follow him and obey his commands. Christianity teaches that God loves everyone, even those who do not believe in him. 6. Please read my posts more carefully. Allah never intervenes pesonally. He sends prophets, like Jesus or Muhammad, but he never participates himself. Jesus, which Christianity teaches was God, is a perfect example of God intervening himself. 7. Not in Jesus's sense. Jesus was supposed to be more than a prophet - he was a Messiah. And he was an intercessor because he enabled humanity to be forgiven of their sins and released from punishment. Islam has none of that. Also, remember both faiths teach very different doctrines and ways to worship God.

I know that. But you see, I based my reasons on the secular and theological sources I've read. I'm not really looking it from the perspective of my religion. Before I actually studied Islam, I too thought the gods of both religions were the same. Why do you think I never post a religious thread? First off, Judaism didn't really have a predecessor. And second, my point was that Judaism and Christianity were two religions, but with the same God. And Christianity was more of a reformation of Judaism with God being worshipped differently. Islam was more of a faith that borrowed from Judaism and Christianity and combined it with new elements and a deity with a different nature. And unlike Christianity, which recognizes both the Old Testament of Judaism and the New Testament, Islam recognizes neither and takes its lessons from the Quran only.

Well, I thought you'd want me to quote passages exactly, so I edited the post. And as I said, they aren't net sources, so I'd have to dig them out first. I just thought I'd list the sources first.

First of all, I was stating my reasons. Shadowstrider gave no reasons for his viewpoints. I wasn't really looking for a source. As for my statements, I can't quote them exactly (as they aren't net sources), but they come from The Quran, the Hadith, and The Islamic Invasion (very good book). Since you'll obviously want verses, I'll need a minute though to find them.

I'm trying to back up my reasons for stating that the Gods of Islam and Judaism/Christianity are different. It'd be hypocritical of me not to back it up.

^^^ see edited post above And as I figured, you still can't seem to back up your statements. So far you've only made statements.

Go ahead. But you still aren't backing up your statements, as I thought. Islam was in a way spawned from Christianity, but the God it teaches is very different, teaches radically different doctrines, and also as I said contradicts the Bible. And unlike Christianity, which was more of a continuation/reformation of Judaism, Islam is a faith which took bits of both religions and added new elements to make itself. And unlike the Bible, which contains both the Old and New Testaments, the Quran contains neither, and is an entirely new book. I'll say it again: the God of Islam is not the God of Christianity or Judaism. Here are some examples why: 1. God is knowable according to the Bible, but according to Islam Allah is unknoweable. 2. God is more of a personal being as taught by the Bible, Allah is impersonal. 3. God of Christianity manifests in three forms (the trinity), Allah is one being. The Quran also denies the trilogy as blasphemy. 4. God is limited by his nature, meaning he cannot lie, cannot break covenants, cannot do evil, etc. Allah has no nature to limit himself to. Allah also is capricious, meaning he could easily say one thing and do another. 5. God is loving. The Quran states many adjectives of Allah, but not loving. This would lower him in a way. The closest thing it describes him as is compassionate, but that is not the same thing as loving. 6. Allah is passive in history. He never intervenes except by angels or prophets. God himself does intervene, including when he came to earth as Jesus. 7. Christianity has a saving intercessor (Jesus), Islam does not. Also combine that with the fact that they teach radically different doctrines as well. BTW, historical evidence indicates that Allah actually came from an older Arabic moon god of the same name. Ever wonder why Islam has a crescent as its symbol? So no, not the same god. If you'd like more, I shall post them.

Your lack of knowledge on this subject, combined with your assertions absolutely astound me. You really, really, really need to do some research. I know you're going to proclaim your knowledge and harp on what you've read, etc... Read it again. Read it all again. Until you get it right. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Alright, then, Shadowstrider. Prove me wrong. Judging from your posts in the past, you don't seem to have high knowledge of the subject, either. Or maybe you weren't here when I listed a whole bunch of Quran verses which contradict the Bible, including reasons why Allah and the God of Judaism/Christianity weren't the same? Or also maybe you're not aware of how Islam teaches that Christianity and Judaism are corrupt faiths? And if you can't back up your statements, then don't post at all, otherwise you'll only make yourself look foolish. And I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again: I form my opinions based on what I've read, which includes theological and secular sources. Not only have I read the Quran and the Hadith, but numerous books and articles on it. If you think I'm wrong, then back it up.

Every time I hear "True Sith" I think to myself, "What the hell were they [Obsidian] thinking?"

I think I'll add myself. Only problem is I wouldn't be able to use a real pic of myself.

1. More like 2. Christianity was spawned from Judaism. Islam is really a new religion that stole bits and pieces from the previous two. Also, since neither religion really justifies the killing, then it'd be humanity's fault, wouldn't it? 2. Well, using your "all gray" philosphy, it should be okay since there is no right and wrong. Right? 3. It may corrupt humans. We are human, after all. A deity is supposed to be something better than human, so no. 4. Same as post 2. 5. How do you know that? And why would you believe in God then if you can't believe in Jesus's tale? Good question.

Mostly because of the piss-poor writing and storyline we got in K2.

The question was, is it safe to drink and post at the same time?

A little quicklime and a shovel, of course.

Nah, they fear us. Commy, it's not unusual that you didn't find any spiders. The little buggers usually leave their webs up but beat it once morning hits. If I were you, I'd also check the vents, any cracks or holes in the wall, and underneath any furniture. By the way, just how big was this web, anyway? Luckily for me, most spiders we get are little garden ones. We did however have this one mamoth spider than made a web outside one of our windows and stayed there for over a month.

Am I right, fellas? I mean, am I right?

First of all, one problem is that some people, not just our fellow posters, hate to be told how to live their lives and what is right/wrong. They view it as a violation of their own free will as human beings, and they refuse to accept it, even if it is from a deity that was here even before humanity. While I think it's rather arrogant to assume a human would know better than a deity, many people here don't share my views on what a deity is. Hence, I believe my God is just, omnipotent, and omniscient. Others however don't view God as any of those, and some view God as little more than another human. Therefore, to think of some being punishing them for their actions seem outrageous and unfair to them. Also, this has to do with a post-modern perspective of looking at the world in shades of gray. Me, I tend to view things more in black and white with some gray mixed in. I believe not everything is black and white, but to disregard it entirely is wrong. With this in mind, some believe there's no real right and wrong, and therefore anything they do could be percieved as good or evil, and therefore no one, not even God, has a right to judge them. I've always believed that to say there is no right and wrong is a lie. Even if you look at the world as a whole, there seem to be universal concepts of right and wrong that reach out beyond one particular culture or religion and influence the entire world. This is a something I believe is discussed in another book by C.S. Lewis, maybe called The Abolition of Man?