Orchomene

3) you need to talk to the guy in Nar Shaada that says the ebon hawk is his ship.

I wanted to thank the devs. Why ? because I've not played a game with such a good story since Planescape: torment. Sure, there are some bugs (minor for me) and a lack of quality testings, but the story is very well written. The NPCs have depth (well at least during a big part of the game).

I'd rather see Obsidian do the third one. It's more complicate, interesting with twited plots you just see through the lines. Kotor 1 was good, but there was less feeling that the story was part of a big scheme that is more intricated.

Also, I've added a big parallel between Hegelian and Nietzschian philosophy and the jedi/sith and kreia's point of views in the thread called "fill the gap bla blabla" if you are interested. That gives a point of view that encompasses the story (well, for me at least).

Well, what I said was : -the exile destroyed (using Boa Dur) an entire planet. -the exile was at that time a jedi. -a jedi who destroys an entire planet should fall to the dark side. -the exile refused to hear the pain, cries,... and rejected the force, and then didn't fall to the dark side. -the force uses minions (jedi and sith) and the horror of M5 and also maybe the hole in the force created by the exile created such minions : sion and nihilus. That's all I said. I've never implied that the exile fell to the dark side, only that a jedi who mass murders people should fall to the dark side according to SW universe.

The flaw in the jedi code : if you are a jedi, you are no more a human being, no emotion, no passion... it's the same flaw in the sith code. It's an ideal, it's not a way of life. In that, the master jedis are more jedi than human. Is pity the same thing as forgiveness ? is redemption the reverse of corruption or is it the same thing ?

Interesting. I've the idea that Kreia was first a jedi, then fell to the dark side but recovered from this fall. Now, she is (during the game at least) neither jedi nor sith. I agree with the "betrayal' theme. But I don't know what was the first betrayal. During the war against Exar Kun ? possible. It's sure for me that Revan knew that both codes were wrong. Revan also share the idea of conflict that revels the nature of human. (from HK discussions) HK-47 even says that Revan started the war to recruit force users, certainly an idea of Kreia, maybe because of what is hiding in the outer space. But it failed, completly. Revan was the only one who was free from both sith and jedi code. For me, Kreia/Revan are like Zarathoustra in Nietzsche book. They do the same error : they want to teach people that they can be free from all codes, but you can't teach this form of freedom because it contains in itself a strong opposition between the message (this form of freedom) and the way to learn it (by teachings). Thus, she knew that this can only be taught by experience. So, she created many conflicts for the exile to confront (sp?). She knew that he has to learn himself the lesson. Thus, She certainly was the one who manipulated Atris to betray the exile. She was the one who took Hanharr to show slavery. Every people around the exile were manipulated (more or less) by Kreia because they knew (and she also knew it) that they did something that was against their ethic code. They "betray" themselves at some moment. And for her, that is the big hole in the jedi or sith code. To be really free, means you can betray everything you learned because at some moment, you have to do it or die.

Excuse me, there is some misunderstanding. I didn't meant that the exile would have been Nihilus, he could have become something else, but the fact is, in the SW univers, everybody has to assume the power of the force, that is, to be clearer : the exile destroyed malachor and hence should have become a "sith" or dark jedi in the end of the force. It's the term of the contract every jedi signs with the force : you use it in some way, you face the consequences. So, the Exile cut the contract, he cut himself to the force : it was the ultimate treachery. The real traitor is the exile, it's the trahison toward the force. So, I see Nihilus and Sion as some tool the force uses because it couldn't use the exile anymore.

But Solan, in that, they are more Jedi than the Exile. For the Jedi, it's not saving the republic that is important, nor saving lives. It's all about the light side. It's something higher than the republic, or people. You should have a closer look at what people say about Jedis in the game. They show arrogance and inhumanity. Not because they have fallen to the dark side, but because they think that the light is higher than humanity. That's what I called "fallen to the light side". It's no more humanity. If they had a bit of humanity, they would have reacted during the mandalorian wars, but they never moved, because they knew there was something behind it that was a bigger threat to the force. I.e., they were blinded by their code to the point they didn't choose to reject the code at a time they needed to.

Exactly. Nihilus is the one you could have become if you did'nt cut the link with the force : a tool used by the force to counter balance the results of Malachor. Like a tsunami : a natural power. It's embodiment is there because the force use minions (jedi and sith) and because it's a common thing in mythology : the use of human being to reflect concepts. Sion is an other aspect of this.

I think you've passed closed to the solution. But in fact, for me at least, they have fallen to the light side. It's not a joke. It's written between the lines in the whole game, the temptation of goodness is as dangerous as the temptation of badness. I'm sure they are suffering of their decission and I'm sure they think it's the best one for everybody and that why they don't admit the paradox of their own attitude. They are blinded by the light side as much as the sith masters are blinded by the dark side. Sure, they fear you. Not because of what you can do, but because you exist. You are the contradiction of their life. Their life is a constant fight between light and dark, blind, terrible and with many casualities. They understood what Revan did. Revan was the one who showed everybody that the teaching of the Jedi was the same as the teaching of the Sith, only the inverse, but it does revolve around the same mistakes, the connection with the force.

... a bit more. You can gather many of the hegelian problem with the discussions with Hanharr. It's the them of slavery. It's really well done and the conclusion is good also. To make sure the PC is free, he vowes he would kill him without pity. It's the same idea behingd Kreia teachings. By helping the poor, you harm him because he becomes dependant of your actions, he becomes your slave. The other lesson from Kreia is to know you have sometimes to make choices that are against your moral (being the jedi one or the sith one). So this games offers the real opportunity for the not light not dark side to be the winner. It's the neutral side who wins in the end. All that kreia wanted to stop was the waves from light to dark of the force. In some discussion, she talks about it. About the fact that the force uses both the jedi and the sith to reach equilibrium. Sure, at the end, one side has a little power over the other, but it's a little one and it's there because true equilibrium is not possible with an instable situation (both jedi and sith want to eliminate the other). That's why there is so much frustration if you are jedi or sith in the end. But just look at the situation you are neither one nor the other. Will the galaxy be better without both ? Kreia says yes. Jedi and Sith say no. In the end, the answer is not there, because it's ending at the turning point. The point where all possibilities exist. You can argue saying that the jedi are good, but the code itself is so rigid that the jedi destroy themselves the power they have and the republic is then weak because the Jedis are the core of the republic. In the end, Kreia killed the force, as Nietsche killed God. Not really, not practically, but philosophically. This is the idea of the force that is killed in the galaxy. People know in Kotor2 more and more that they have to construct the republic without the jedi and the sith at the top of it. And in this, the republic is saved, for at least 5000 thousand years. It's a enormous achievment ! In that, this story is really, really a jewel of complexity and really well shows what is existing in our world history.

Very interesting. But I think (contrary to many here as it seems) that it's a good end, ok, a frustrating and a bit quick one with too many fights, but it avoids a lame conclusion like "creating a new jedi school or sith school". Let me explain why all things are tied very cleverly. First, it's like a philosophical conflict between hegelian and nietzschian philosophies. Kreia and Revan are in the Nietzsche side. The jedi and the Sith are in the Hegel side. Why ? For Hegel, people define themselves as slaves and masters where the slave is the weak and the master is the powerful one. But, for Hegel, this relation hides a dependance of one to another in that the both depends of the existence of the other : the slave because of his state and the master because without a slave he is no more a master. In this situation, the Jedi is the slave of the force and his moral. The sith is the master of the force. But both depend strongly of the force. More than this parallel, in Hegel, the master and the slave are looking for recognition : the slave from his master and the master from other masters, because he knows he is already recognised by the slave but at the same time he denies the slave the power of recognition. I could go on with this, but I will let you do it as a maieutic adept (cf. Socrate). Now for Nietzsche. Kreia is the Traitor. She shows that everybody needs to break with this link of dependance with the force and sees in you the Zarathoustra she never was. Sure, like Nietzsche, she knew why it was needed and how to teach someone to open his/her eyes, but she was too conformed to this and never had the opportunity, like the PC during mandalorian wars to completly close herself to the force. She is a looser and more than that knows it. With this knowledge, she forged the goal to teach someone into behind the Ubermensch, the PC. Revan, also, was the first to see that conflict was the tool to revel the true behing the teaching of the Jedi. The Jedi are weak because they let the force guid them and the Sith were weak because they overuse the force to the point they are consumed by the dependance they have toward the force. Like in Nietzsche famous book (so spoke zarathoustra, or something like that, I've not read it in english, sorry), there are some exemple of the difficulty to be an Ubermensch : Nihilus and Sion are both pretty obvious exemples. Nihilus and Sion are consumed by their own power : hunger and pain. Nihilus is looking for even more force to drain and Sion can not even more kill someone, as long as this someone accept his/her death. Both are weak because they lack the possibilty to be different. They accepted their state to the point it became as rigid as the jedi code.

I speak french, of course, also english and german and can understand italian and a bit of spanish. Btw, 70 in french (only in france, in other french speaking countries they say 'septante') we say 60 10 (soixante-dix) and not 50 20...

At least, all mini games will be optional...

So, you are suggesting that "los[ing] vitality points or constitution to show the corruption of the body" will make the DS more seductive ? How to make it more seductive without it being as powerful. And, by the way, Yoda is partial.

I like the idea of a better DS, like in the d6 PnP RPG system : after some dark action or misuse (is it english ? ), you earn dark side points and each DS point adds to you control of the force. Then, each time you gain an other point, you have a chance proportionnal to the amount of DS points you have to turn completly DS. What I like with the idea is the risk to become lost but the temptation to get one or two points just to gain a bit of power. So, imagine a scale from 0 to 5 (light 0 and DS 5) for your DS bias. This amount adds to your level to determine the efficiency of your force powers (all of them, not only DS powers). But each point substracts to actions such as diplomacy and people tend to react upon it. You can say that in this case, there is no balance, but who said there was a balance between a Jedi and a Sith. You can add a decay in it, but it should appear normally after a long time (some years) so wouldn't impact on the character (only at the end, in the epilogue). This way, I would be happy to roleplay a real DS user really more potent with tyhe force AND a jedi proud to be less powerful but pure...

I think I wasn't clear. I'll try to develop what I meant. I know (at least for some crpgs) that if you develop a game using a 'normal' setting for dialogues and situations (as in real life) some parts are cut because the developers are in fear to miss the teen rating. I don't want to have an 'adult' game full of 'adult' things as in xxx-rated films or other, just a game without constraints like "you can't do that because the game can lose its teen rating". When you look at dialogues or situations when playing a bad guy, or looking at bad guys in Kotor 1, I'm sure everybody here are thinking dialogues are pathetic. I had pity for my character that he was only some stereotype of comic 'bad guy'. Let's face it, the first was really far from what could be the dark side. there were some exceptions, but when you look at the sith in their nazis or ss uniforms being so politically correct, I feel ashamed because I can play them without the impression to be a monster. If the sith were really as horrible as nazis, I think only few of us could play a dark jedis without to be disgusted. So, the product I hope to see would be a realist one without such constraints (and so would be rated mature) with another version (easily done, only some small parts would change) for kids. The problem is when you talk about an adult creation, everyone thinks about something specific to adults. I only want a creation without constraints. Take a book as an exemple, some books are not recommanded for children because some part of it can be shocking, but it has a sense. The real life is full a shocking situations.

The first time I'll play the game, I don't know... but if I'm planning to play a good guy, I'll choose a dark side revan and blabla respectivly... in hope there will be more challenge.

...So, just try the three of them.

I think it's more the problem of adding a bigger set of discussions and voices... In fact, it's not so hard for the developpers : they just write the game without constraint of age (adult version)... then, when censorship (or whatever you call it) comes by, they have to change some dialogues -> teen version. After that, the problem is more for the publisher, because of marketing and logistic, but in the end, with a small work you can increase the audiance of the game. In fact, I think having PC and X-Box versions of the same game is asking for more work than having an adult and a teen version.

What about ? Darth Fect Darth Deed Darth Volved...

I've read somewhere here a very good idea. It's so simple I can understand why nobody thought about it already and I thought it could be a bit more stressed, thus this topic. What about having two versions of the game : an adult one and a teen one... with only some changes (dialogues by exemple). First, this would content more people to have a product closer to what they are expecting. Second, the developping community would see that by now, there are many adults playing video games. What do you think of it ? Of course, I'm not thinking about doing two different games, just some changes from one core game into two specific games, that shouldn't need too much work.

I chose dark side, in hope to have a real dark path through the game.

I thought that the spirit of Hit points (at least in Ad&D) was more the ability to avoid/dodge attacks than the ability to take a hit without being knocked out. So, if combats were made such that you almost never really hit opponents until they only have something like ten hit points, we would agree that when the lightsaber or any weapon really 'touch' the opponent, the result is death.