Jivin

I would say there is even less chance of a patch than there is of an 'expansion' pack release. I honestly don't think I could answer whether or not I would prefer a patch or a kotor3 that finishes it up and continues the story (albeit from a different new characters perspective)... I actually dont think I care, as long as whatever it is gets all the development time it needs to make it awesome. From what i've seen I truly beleive Obsidian are capable of making a truly amazing game, should they allow themselves the proper time to create such a game. Bring it on! - Dan

Yeah... I kinda ignored her, lol When I play through the game for the second time it will be as LS Female. I imagine I will still have the same interest in Visas, but i'll be sure to give some attention to (in this case) the Disciple so I can train him as well as saving Visas Eventually I may replay the game as LS Male again though... Everybody wins! - Dan

Admirable Call me weak, but its the only way i'd have it too! :D No, being favourable to Visas shouldn't stop this. HOWEVER that said, I found that due to my favouring Visas, the Handmaiden eventually flew off the handle and wouldn't let me speak to her at all... period I'm not sure what triggered it, but im not sure it was a part of the relationships mechanics within the game, I think it was more because I didn't take her out on missions enough. - Dan

Remember too, he was only the death of the force through the eyes of the Jedi Council... and in their situation and given their almost dogmatic view on the matter its sort of questionable. I'm not saying the assumption isnt correct, but its more one of those things that is sort of open to interpretation... and its important to understand that if you want to get the most out of the game; or at least thats my opinion. I do agree with you though, but what you have to understand is that the chances of there being an official patch or addon to TSL are very small, so our only real hope is that (like we have both said already in this thread) KOTOR3 delivers the goods, and until I can see otherwise, im going to hold onto that hope - Dan

Hey Dan, I need to replay II to refresh certain aspects of it in my mind, esp for Visas. I was more interested in the Disciple/Atton problem and cos I never played Male, I never got to see as much of Visas as the Male players did. Gonna playthrough again soon as LSM, just to find out all I missed from the first time around. I'll let you know once I've done that and formed an opinion on it. I do remember bringing her along with me on Onderon, and losing influence with her because I chose Queen Talia over Vaklu the ass. I really didn't like that But I really agree with you on how Obsidian structured the characters in a very interesting way, with the top layer given and the rest left to you to find out or figure out. The influence device made things very frustrating to gain information but it added stunningly to the believability of the characters. I especially admire the way the writing left a lot of us to figure things out. Look at the numerous posts on this board regarding the story. It made TSL a thinking game, in a very un-Star Wars style. It has totally reinvented the spirit of Star Wars - in many ways TSL is an extremely sophisticated game for adults, in a way the entire StarWars franchise is a more simple story targetted at a General audience. I hope Obsidian tries again, with a longer deadline. If Obsidian does KotOR III and it comes out in like 2 years time I really don't mind. I'll be the first one in line to buy it - bluerosy <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for that, and I agree with your points. I will be interested to hear your opinions once you have replayed the game a male exile, and on the flipside, in time I think it would be worth my while to try it with a female exile... although it might be a tad weird... Interesting... I'm pretty sure I had her with me on Onderon (I took her almost everywhere lol), and I don't remember losing influence on that occasion. I could be mistaken though Thanks again, - Dan

Very interesting... thanks for clearing that up. The whole clothes thing seems very weird.. you think they could have come up with a better condition on which to base the killing of a character than what she is wearing. Either way, its good to know, and it confirms what I had sort of hoped wouldn't happen, because at least when they had given us -no- chance of closure, I could at least hold onto the hope that it meant they had something in store for her... but now I wonder how this will pan into the next game now? Maybe we will never see her character again? I hope it doesn't mean she won't exist at all in the next game, since its likely that most LS players who didn't sacrifice her will want closure... just like with every other character. I guess its yet another thing they will have to run a check for at the beginning of the game - Dan Edit: Ok I just confirmed it for myself by trying it out... so sad... but very touching. It's quite obviously a Dark Side thing... but like most stages in the game they like to give you the option to turn at any stage. I think it shouldn't have been an option for LS'ers, so at least then it could have been a simple Light vs. Dark issue come game 3. I still find it a bit upsetting that she is the only character they killed off (albeit only if you choose to), but I guess if it had to be any character it makes the most sense that it be her, seeing as she does constantly pledge "my life for yours". So sad. Compounded by the fact I am really pessamistic about her appearing in the next game now. I was much more optimistic when there was no two ways about her fate at the end of the game. Lets hope i'm wrong eh?

I voted "No, the game sucked lets move on"... because that was the closest my view game to matching one of your poll options... but its not very accurate (in hindsight i shouldn't have voted at all ). I beleive the cut ending would have been better, and at least that way we would have all gotten storyline closure and closure with our favorite characters, but its all said and done now, and I did not think KOTOR2 sucked. I would rather they forget about KOTOR2, and focus ALL of their energy on creating a truly epic KOTOR3, which will silence the critics and bring us all the closure we longed for after KOTOR2, as well as being a truly kickass game on its own. Who cares if it takes them a couple of years... personally I would be willing to wait. There is a lot at stake though... I mean, in some small way, I would be crushed if they botched KOTOR3.

I couldn't agree with you more here, and I can't help but think the way this was written in KOTOR2 was very deliberate, and was done this way to give the characters a different kind of depth. At least a few of the characters dont slap you in the face with all they have to offer... instead they give you the surface of their personality, and you have to dig deeper (both in your mind and in the game) to discover the detail about the characters. I would go as far as to say some of the characters do nothing less that -inspire- you to dig deeper... but of course that will differ from person to person. From what I have seen of KOTOR1, the characters still have a good level of depth, but it requires less... mindpower (for the lack of a better, or more existant word ). It appears in kotor1 that all of the character depth is sitting right there in front of you, you just need to progressively peel back the layers. I can understand that some people may prefer that, but personally, having a great interest in the psychology of it all, I find it much more appealing that TSL characters were so thought provoking (and I have an inkling that this very difference is what deep down affects a lot of people). I am only 8 hours into KOTOR1 however, so I cannot comment too much on my preference ala kotor1 vs kotor2. By the way, great post bluerosy - I enjoyed reading it, and the responses it has provoked are equally interesting! (well most of them) - Dan PS: Bluerosy - Now that I think about it, it would be wonderful if you wouldnt mind checking out my post regarding characters (specifically visas) here: and perhaps add your thoughts/opinions? I'm curious to get some other viewpoints from people who share a similar beleif regarding the character depth. I would appreciate it if you could

Nice sketch there Vashanti! - Dan

Hi, I've heard this mentioned elsewhere, and I, among others, am interested in seeing it through to a proper conlusion: Can Visas be made to sacrifice herself in Knights of the Old Republic II? Of course this goes without saying I mean in the retail game, with no modifications or anything like that (if such things even exist). I am inclined to think 'no', though I admit my bias could well have an effect on my opinion ( "). I have read the posts of a 1 or 2 scattered users who claim they got her to sacrifice herself during the Nihilus fight as a Dark Side exile... however (and I honestly mean no offense) I have a little trouble beleiving the claims. If more people come along though, perhaps with some proof, that would be great! If it turns out she can be killed... and I admit this is a distinct possibility, it would present yet another complication for KOTOR3, should the developers decide to actually finish up KOTOR2 at all. I could be worked in, just like everything else... but it just adds another thing they need to keep in mind when making kotor3 It would also be interesting because (and correct me if im wrong here please) that would make Visas the only one of the exiles companions that can be killed in the game, which seems odd to me, since its almost like the developers went out of their way to remove all such events from the game (eg: attons death, visas/handmaiden fight, bao-dur(?)) Thoughts? - Dan

Thanks! It's always nice to hear that people share your point of view, even if your an advocate for accepting all the alternatives It seems like there is a lot of people who dont like her character at all, and a lot of others who only like her character because she is 'hawt' (haha), both of which are fine... but it's good to see someone else who thought her character was worthwhile from looking at her on a deeper level also.

Just curious... but for my LS ending I thought I was given the choice (in Kreia's speech) to stay on Malachor V to be a guide to others 'touched by the force. I don't remember if it was an actual choice in the dialogue, but I know Kreia presented this as an option. Was this a dark side choice? That would have resulted in the DS ending? Because the notion of a Jedi staying at the Trayus Academy to guide others doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, given the planets very high dark side power. - Dan

Started with a grenade or 2 (concussion if possible?), then I just ran like a little girl with the camera facing backwards and then I would just repeatedly turn around, and power attack or critical strike (or something, as long as you hit the thing ), then keep running... basically just to limit the chances he has to get his mits on you. My general philosphy was.... if in doubt, run like a little sissy girl until you figure out what to do :D

It's a bit weird, I agree... perhaps a bit over the top. However that said, I think if you look into her character a bit its basically just reflective of her complexities, which I've outlined from my perspective in other threads. I've mentioned this to you before if memory serves me correctly, and I still beleive you can view the game and its characters however you want and I certainly beleive thats your right, but it does appear the developers tried to push that a lot of things in this game shouldnt be taken at face value... - Dan

I assumed that went without saying, so I simply pointed out what I thought was more pertinent to Lannister. Didn't mean to sound like I was ignoring what you said, I was just adding my own comments to top off your response

I know it is definitely possible to train both the Handmaiden and Mira as Light Jedi, however it is not possible to convert Visas in the way you are referring to. Her character is complex already, especially with regard to her force orientation. Regarding the personal story of Visas, If you follow it through to a conclusion (slaying nihilus) as an light side player and say the right thing when she removes his mask, then she will basically give you the confirmation that you have helped her relinquish her hatred and come to terms with her past, and guided her to the light. From memory she more or less states that she wishes to learn the ways of the light jedi through you so she can begin to help the galaxy as a way of doing something good, instead of seeking revenge. That is about as close as you come to converting her... but something tells me there may be a conclusion to that tale coming in the 3rd game perhaps? - Dan

I like the way her character is so open to interpretation though... I don't know if it was something deliberatly done by the developers or not, but I beleive beyond the surface she is arguably one of the more complex characters in the game. I think this bloke summed it up very well from my perspective: It's interesting though, because at the end of the day we are all just ordinary people, but this game drags us in to such an extent that some can almost get caught relating to them like real people, which only proves the power of the human mind. I seem to mention it all the time, but I really loved the character of Visas, largely because of that depth. Sure, there is probably a lighthearted sense of romance in it, but I look at it more as her complexities in the context of the story rather than from a correlation between real life personal relationships and the ingame situation between the exile and visas. Someone else on this forum stated this: That sums me up. Call me a sucker for a bit of a sob story, but on the surface there wasnt much to her, but as you come to understand (and i admit the progression of the relationship ingame is a bit awry) her character more you see that depending largely on the way you view her, you see the finer points of her situation and character. This is left up to the imagination a bit, so obviously some people wont see past the surface and dismiss her... and thats cool, there are other characters to relate to that can fill her role. but yeah, I dont see it as much as a physical attraction thing as some people have seen it, its just more even though its just a game, if your like me and like to think a lot, and read into things, then you see that her character and your character share a very emotional bond, and there is something special to be gained by setting her free, so to speak. If you choose the light side, you get the chance to help her face her demons and extinguish her buried hatred, which is all that is binding her to the dark side that was forced upon her. In the game it is obvious that beyond this she also has feelings for your character, but why that is is completely open to speculation from each individual playing the game, but there is no doubt to some of us, throughout the game a sort of special bond was felt between her character and the exile, and im my case it wasnt due to the way she looked (although she has a sort of sexy mysterious thing happening, and her voice is divine), but it was more wrought out of seeing the good in her character and helping to save a good soul, and becoming attached in the process. Her character isnt as headstrong and shielded as lets say, Mira... but I think its interesting that people dismiss her because they relate her to their real personal lives and see her as 'clingy'. From my point of view there is far too much more to her character than to allow for such a simple comparison, as her 'love' for your character isnt as simple as it may seem. She has had her life taken from her, and what remains is passive hatred that was forced upon her, and she knows this... being young at the time she was too weak to have a choice. But as a light side exile, to her you represent everything at the other end of the spectrum.... a being not so unlike her that gives her hope of regaining life, and for that she 'loves you more that she loves herself', to paraphrase. You gave her life hope, and in that your presence gave her the drive to attempt to break away from her master somewhat, giving you that chance to help and bond with her, if you choose to grasp it. The way I experienced it, this bonding shows more traits of an extremely deep-seated loving friendship if you will, rather than a 'clingy' intimate relationship. I am aware this is a truly huge post, and for that I apologise to those who dislike reading, but I couldn't let the oppurtunity pass to voice my opinion on this wonderful character. I think there is some 'truth' to the way I perceive Visas, but I also think 'perceive' is the key word there, and as such there is so many different ways you can understand her character. Also, sorry if i seem to have babbled and gone into ridiculous detail on seemingly 'nothing' issues in my time on these forums, but I study human psychology, and being my first RPG game, I find it all incredibly interesting, especially now after finishing the game, and reading here the impact the games have had on you all. I am particularily interested in character relationships both within the game, and the effect of those relationships on you all, and in fact, I am seriously considering making this the primary focus of my major thesis due for submission at the end of this year. The level on which the whole RPG immersion 'phenomenon' (if you will) is occuring is just staggering when you step back and look at it, and it can be a wonderful thing, and to some extent, it would have been unthinkable just 20 years ago, and on a global scale no less! I would love to keep reading your thoughts on these sorts of character related matters, so everyone be sure to share! There is no shame in admitting these games have an affect on you if you allow them to (not that anyone here suffers from that beleif, im sure!). Its only human - Dan

The idea that Kreia used dantooine and the slaying of the remaining council members to mask the exiles "death" makes sense to me... but how did the sith turn on each other? I don't remember a scene in particular that portrayed that... maybe someone could remind me?

Go on, post it! As long as its not smutty or pornographic I dont see any reason why you shouldn't be able to post it here. There isn't enough people doing fan art of Visas, so good drawings or fair attempts at them would be great! - Dan

Great thread! I imagine some people are sick to death of reading KOTOR3 speculation, but im sure they will manage I find it hard to beleive that the developers would leave KOTOR2 with so little character closure without having a pretty solid view that there would be a KOTOR3, and that they would be involved in it in some way. I am really not sure of the way the end of the DS game panned out, but the idea of KOTOR3 picking up with a new character trained/training at an academy run by the new jedi (made up of Atton, Visas, Handmaiden and Mira) really gels with me. This would give the developers the perfect oppurtunity to merge together a suitable 'ending' as it were for the characters who were basically dismissed at the end of KOTOR2, as well as starting with a fresh character who can then go off to take the PC role in a story that leads on from the existing ones. The specifics of this are something that I could probably spend forver thinking about, but i'd rather not if at all possible, and due to the number of quality posts here, I dont think i should need to However the possibility of perhaps electing which of the new jedi you would have train your character (based on the character you had the most bond with in kotor2) would be great, and there is no doubt that working in the other characters beleivably in the story would go a long way to making it a truly epic finish. Especially with regard to the KOTOR2 characters, I beleive this is important to the developers as well, as it is clear from the missing parts that were written that they understand the importance of giving proper character closure. Of course one of the main things I have neglected to factor in is the DS path... my hopes that i outlined above would be all well and good to lead off from a LS KOTOR2 path... but I imagine dark side might differ? I had just assumed that it was a mirror of the LS, but instead a dark side academy would be created with your companions training dark jedi... which might perhaps lend itself to a style where you basically choose your force orientation at the beginning of KOTOR3 based on what side you ended kotor2 on (or whatever side you wanted to choose)? I think in order to make kotor3 the game everybody is desperate to see, it will mean a heck of a lot of work... as there is a lot of storyline issues stemming from choices that we were allowed to make that would need to be worked around or worked in, but I honestly beleive it can be done. - Dan

Hey thats a good point! I had always just had a laugh at the whole "charge her up the loading ramp" thing But it does make sense what your saying... I found it interesting that they just jumped on the whole "the male character must be attracted to Visas" thing from the get-go, when it seems obvious that just as many blokes seem to like the handmaiden, and she was on the ship before Visas. You never hear any of the other characters assume that you and the handmaiden are an item, and you certainly dont hear Kreia warning you against taking to her with the old jolly roger. Maybe from the very beginning the writers scripted it such that Visas would be the mysterious object of love, and the handmaiden to be the poor one that is in love but always misses out? Storyline wise though, I guess there is no reason why that shouldnt be well founded, as you and her do share an scar and a loss thats fairly deep and emotional, however thats an assumption, because doesnt really take into account how the player approaches the game. Either way I think your point lends itself well to the idea of the thread

Thanks for that! What i'm discovering that I love about this game now that I have finished it is that in general (and not just KOTOR2, but also the original), there is so much that is left for you to decide what you beleive, regarding the characters and your relationships with them... Of course some of it relates to how you play the game, but its obvious that some people view different characters in totally different ways to others, and they actually beleive in them and read into their actions, especially with it comes to their force orientation. Its just great to see... and its food for the mind.

(cough)...Visas...(cough) From I'll destroy you to I want you is not odd? From DS Servant to Very very very High LS (yep, that's me) instantly... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> From my understanding of this character I didn't think it was odd at all, but I guess in retrospect if you weren't very fond of her character to begin with I can see why you think it was odd that she attacked you in the beginning. Your entitled to your opinion - Dan

I'm curious as to how you think Visas was odd? (dont forget to fill me in on whether you were LS/DS) I thought she was intruiging and a bit mysterious, but overall a wonderful character... with a lot of depth to her, even if you dont notice it at first. She was a great personification of one of the themes of the game (from my perspective at least) as well. I admit they probably could have handled her relationship with the exile a bit better, but thats nothing specific... its more a problem with how they brushed off the relationships at the end for -all- of the characters.

Well, since I spent a little while searching and I cant find a definitve answer, I will post it here for the sake of future people. From what ive found there is two extra scenes in the Nihilus battle, and they are basically dark/light versions of Visus' death, and neither are viewable from within the game, even if you follow the directions outlined in the dialogue file. In one version she is obviously slain by Nihilus, and you speak with her as she dies, and the dark side version involves your character actually asking/telling her to sacrafice herself so that you may defeat him and live on. Both are very sad, touching scenes. Most of that is probably not new info to the majority, and im aware of that, I was mainly posting for the sake of anyone in the future that might search this topic. - Dan