Jivin

Which is ironic given that it is that same will that kreia despises so much

Great post Jediphile! I had just assumed Kreia was exiled from the Jedi Order because of her suspect teachings that led to the fall of a lot of her students, and I imagine it was then that the beginnings of her hatred of the force showed itself as she willingly searched for Revan at Malachor V, and then when she got there she was consumed by the dark side, which was fueled by, and in turn fueled her hatred for the fact the force has a 'will' which took away control (to a certain extent). Twisted by the dark side, but with a great understanding of all things, she set out to train one who would spite the will of the force, one who would almost be above it. But thats more of a what, not why.... like me in some other areas I suspect your looking for a deeper reason, and its doubtful you will ever get a certain answer... so dont go too crazy over it haha, this game really gets into your head As far as the 'grey' side thing goes, I cant comment about things from kotor1, but in kotor2, visas would have to be an example of sorts. I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as being truly neutral when it comes to the force... the characters are either light or dark side, however there is certainly grey areas within the dark side, and there is no doubt a character can change orientation, if they are in the grey area of the dark side Visas was a part of the dark side to begin with, no doubting that... but she was pushed into it, no small part due to her weakness at the time when her race was culled. Her hatred over what happened to her people is what drove her to a certain extent, and that is a dark side trait, but her enslavement by darth nihilus was also a catylst for her dark side orientation. from the way i played the game it was easy to see that she was good at heart, and she sought you out after all, feeling that you and her shared an emotional wound suffered at the hands of something larger. All it needed was for her to break away somewhat, and face her demons, and her true spirit arose, as can be seen at the end of the LS game. This is an example of "there is more to the sith than some would have thought" mentality that I think they try and push a lot in this game, which sorta introduces an element of complexity that was compounded when they neglected to end the game properly (all though to be fair with regards to this specifically, the travells and futures of the characters could be elaborated on in kotor3). Of course though there is always going to be more ambiguity when it comes to the sith than with the jedi, because by their very nature the dark side is much less restrictive than the jedi, and there is far more room to be ambiguous... both in behaviour and beleifs.

Another thing I would like some opinions on if you will... In other posts I had said I liked the character of Visas... and through the game I always beleived in the good of her character, regardless of her sith branding. In the ending the way I played out the game, I was told basically that Visas could not come with me from that point onward, regardless of the decisions I could have made, but at the same time (as a result of the ending they chose), you never got to finish up with your comrades properly. I read through a lot of the gold material hidden in the game files with the KOTOR Tool, and it seems there was a scene that was written whereby Visas dies in the fight with Darth Nihilius. I didn't listen to the sound, but it was truly a touching scene (or could have been... it could also have been very evil ). I had a little play ingame, but I couldnt get this scene to play out... does anyone know if this scene is actually a part of the game? If it is, in some ways I would rather replay and go with that opion, so that I get some closure with my fav. character.... however maybe thats just my pessamistic side talking, because even if it wasn't possible to get her killed (and thats what it looks like... and the same with all the other characters), then i'm not sure how much I trust that she and the others will re-appear in the 3rd. It just seems like its a very long shot that IF its feasible in the first place that there would need to be some serious information gathering done at the start of KOTOR3 to make it authentic. Can anyone enlighten me as to what the alternatives are for Visas come the end of the game? Does she live on regardless, and its more just a question of light/dark side orientation? If so that would be slightly more promising. But on the other hand.. if no-one you love can come with you, then why milk it like they have? Just let us finish it up properly, and then even if kotor3 included your exile, they wouldnt have to worry as much about working in the characters? Ahhh the possibilities... for the time being I almost just want to forget about the game entirely until KOTOR3 comes out... cause htere is obviously nothing we can do but hypothesise about what might be... but there is just too much left uncomprehended and unresolved in my head! and my cousin is having the same problem, she keeps ringing me in the middle of the night to talk about it lol There is no doubt, if nothing else this game gets into your head

Sure thing mate, sorry for the hijack I'll probably leave it be though, unless one of the artists that has already seen my post would see fit to give it a shot. Thanks a lot to Darth Spock too, your drawing was very good.

hahaha

There's a difference between an open ending and no ending. Empire Strikes Back had an open ending, where it was clear that a lot of plots were intentionally left unanswered (will Han Solo be rescued? Is Vader Luke's father? Will Luke become a jedi now that he has defied Yoda and Obi-Wan? Will Leia choose Han or Luke? Etc.). However, you did get closure to that chapter, even if it was a "to be continued"/cliffhanger ending - you knew where the protagonists were at in their internal relationships and which conflicts they had to confront in the next chapter. You just don't get that in KotOR2. I still don't know if Bao-Dur lived or died, or whether G0-T0 or the drone won their little fight. I know that Mira (or Hanharr, if you were lightsided) lived, but otherwise I'm left with no idea of what happened to the characters I spend an entire game building relationships with. Kreia makes some predictions, but - I mean - consider the source.... Sure, I've read and heard much of the cut material, but we still don't know whether that will be considered 'canon' in the next game. After all, since it didn't make it into the actual game, it is not impossible for the developers of KotOR3 to just ignore it all, since it didn't really happen - it was just something planned that never made it into the game. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> All good points, but I think the way I made my post probably left me open to misunderstanding. Like you, I am of the opinion that the ending to KOTOR2 wasn't up to scratch, even for an 'open' ending, however that said, even with plot lines unexplained and character relationships left hanging, it is still an ending that is very open to a 3rd game, and my point was that I want closure to KOTOR2 a LOT, and because of that I feel its good in a sense that KOTOR2 was open to a 3rd game. Of course, as I said, this is a huge catch 22, because its the fact that they made it a 'open' (albeit crappy) ending in the first place that drives this... Of course there is a possibility that they proceed to make a 3rd game that more or less ignores the remaining issues from KOTOR2.... and that would just be horribly annoying However the premise of my posts were that at least by leaving it open, they have the oppurtunity to take all the development time they need and address the KOTOR2 issues in KOTOR3 and make it into a really kick ass game. I'm not sure that when/if they do that I will get everything I want out of it, but who knows... maybe they will work in some info-gathering questions at the beginning and do a really great job of working it all in as well as creating a kickass new game. - Dan

That was very helpful and made perfect sense to me - cheers! I still don't fully grasp Kreia's actions on M5 though... when you say 'does her thing on Malachor'. The way I played it (LS all the way), is she meant to be unhappy that I went light side and failed to fall to the dark side? Or is she just satisfied that she trained a jedi that became powerful despite the will of the force? Did she want to be slain because... it was the final step in my 'training' ? or because she had acheived all what she wanted? Someone mentioned her plan was to create an even larger wound in the force by getting the exile to tear away from the force again... how did she plan on going about that? in the game it seemed her primary wish on malachor was to get you to fight her and when she posed your options to you, its not like she was pushing you to go into exile again - she really didn't seem phased? Its just all filled with ambiguity to me.

[Exile] Ok, I see it, im going in! [Exile] Switching to targeting computer... landing ramp in sight... [Visas] Use the force, edwuado... [Exile] Uhh ok... *closes eyes* Bao-Dur (over intercom) General, you switched off your targeting computer. What's wrong? [Exile] Nothing, I'm fi...What the?... Damnit Bao-Dur get off the security cameras, can't you see im "meditating" here!? *they hear sounds of blaster shots and then someone running to their quarters* [Han Solo (out of nowhere)] Your all clear kid! Now lets do this thing and go home! [Exile] I'm trying! but I cant see anything with my eyes closed! All I see is blue! [Visas] Stay here... with me, where it is just -us-... [Exile] But what about him? *looks at at han* [Han Solo] Forget about me kid, you've got a job to do! [Exile] Riiight *looks back to visas* Oh wait... here we go... [Visas] Ohhh!! [Han Solo] Great shot, kid! That was one in a million! [Exile] ... and im spent. [Exile] I must leave now, doing this again would only weaken me for the battle ahead. [Visas] Then I shall wait; and if you do not return I shall wait until the end of my life where we will meet in places where the force does not touch... [Exile] Its a date! [Chewbacca (from nowhere)] *Yells excitedly*

It would be great if one of the talented artists here could take a shot and drawing LS Visas... personally I would like to see Visas and a male exile, or Visas with a purple lightsaber... or meditating.... something cool - the possibilities are numerous, and im certainly not going to be picky! Im sure there are others that would love to see this, as there isn't much around of Visas... or male exiles for that matter. Of course its all the choice of the artist and I respect that, and I know these things take time, but if any one of you would even consider it, I would be grateful - Dan

Man there is some good idea moving around in this thread! I don't really have much to add, but one thing is for sure, regardless of what they do, they need to close it properly! Give the people closure! For pete's sake don't leave us hanging again. My list of things I hope for in KOTOR3 is pretty simple: - find some way to give some closure to the key elements of KOTOR2 that were left unfinished - end this one properly - take the time to iron out bugs in the game and in the plot In some ways I think there are hints given to what characters are likely to return from Kreia's future-telling at the end... eg: Mira's future didn't sound like it was made for a return in kotor3, however visas' just sounded like it had more potential... or maybe thats just wishful thinking On top of that though, im not even sure how the dark side/different paths affected the appearance of party members... is it possible that you can play the game so that Visas isnt there at the end? If so (for any of the main party characters) then maybe it introduces too much complexity for the developer to deal with when starting the new game? Either way, if they dont work them in, please find some way to tie up the end to kotor2! ahh! - Dan

Definitely Visas. Mysterious, Beautiful and that voice! I would say I became the most attached to her in the game... I dunno, the handmaiden just never quite appealed to me... not sure why. Handmaiden ended up going spaz at me and wouldn't let me talk to her, so I sorta ignored her and didnt use her at all after that :D Was cool training Mira to be a jedi though, I enjoyed that, and I got a laugh out of how you can ask her for something "a little more intimate" Don't know why they didnt let you say something like that to Visas, considering in my game at least the other characters hinted at it regularily, and Kreia even warned me not to "mate" with her.... hahah Contrary to what I had seen from the general marketing of the game (from lucasarts and info sites ect), I never really viewed Visas as an evil, dark side sith or anything, and I think she is the perfect example of the blurring of the traditional jedi/sith line. I assume in everyone elses game she started well into the light side? she certainly did for me, and by the end she was at the very upper extreme of the light side, the same as my character, and thats the way I always saw her character. Basically I saw her as a force user who had been forced into a sith role and learning the force from a dark side perspective, instead of the much more restrictive light side perspective, however she is good at heart and understands the force deeply. In many ways I guess she is a lot like our exile characters in that she wounded by the force, isnt conventional and approaches the force from a different perspective. Visas all the way But after reading some of the replies here regard character relationships and how they are better in KOTOR1, im keen to give that a go sometime in the future

I probably could have lived with the fact that there were some other unconcluded plots in KOTOR2, and I like the fact that it has been left open for good integration into a 3rd game, but I can't beleive they neglected to give you sufficient closure to the plots and relationships of the characters you travelled with, -especially- since interactively developing the relationships with those characters had been such a big focus throughout the game. I loved the characters in TSL, and since I got into it so much and bonded with those characters I felt might ripped off that the ending didn't entail what a good ending for such a great game should have. At the end of the day, despite my love of the game in general and the characters... if KOTOR1 tied it all together and ended it properly, then I would rather that over the advantages KOTOR2 has to offer (great characters and an ending open to a 3rd game). Ending the game properly is just that important to me. And really, the only reason I like the idea so much of KOTOR2 being open to a 3rd game is BECAUSE they didnt conclude the game properly - because if they had have finished it up well, I wouldn't be so worried about wanting those characters to re-appear in the 3rd installment (although it would still be nice)... so its a bit of a catch 22. I'm yet to play KOTOR1, so im really just going off common opinions though when I say that KOTOR1 tied things up well. - Dan

Ahhh, so the council saw the exile as being similar to Darth Nihilus, in that he draws his power from others? (in the case of the exhile, his companions as well as through the people he kills?), and they saw this as the death of the force because he didn't have the normal passive connection to the force, and instead he was channelling it from his companions and such, almost 'stealing' from others. I agree with you on your thoughts too - espcially when your companions urge you to beleive in your characters reconnection as well... it seems quite obvious to me that the council merely has a very restricted view and that they didnt understand the situation. I got the feeling the game sort of pushed that view a bit. I mean, it wouldn't make much sense with the rest of the game if your character really did resume a full normal connection to the force, it was more that he had a new and different way of feeling the force that was less attached to its will, and the council didn't understand that properly, and only saw the evil in it. On a similar note though, can you tell me if I am understanding the events of Malachor V? The way I understand it now is that obviously the exile caused a lot of death and destruction there, and the suffering caused this strong echo in the force... is it right that of the force sensitive, some embraced the suffering and therefore embraced the dark side (eg: darth nihilus and many others... but nihilus obviously was more powerful than most because of it), and if you would not do that you would either be overwhelmed and die, or if you were strong enough (like the exile was) you could turn your back to it all, but the pain would deafen you from the force. Is this fairly correct? One thing, and I think this might just about be my last question (): Kreia said at one stage (almost as if it were a revelation to her), that she finally understood why the exile did what he/she did on Malachor V (im assuming she means withstanding the dark side and power and turning away), and she said it was because the exile was afraid... and that was it - i was assuming that was the precursor to something but it didnt seem to turn out that way... does anyone have any insight into that? Thanks again, - Dan

Yes both of you so far have helped to clear a lot up. I already knew the core bits of most of what went on, its just it helps enourmously to read someone else explaining it, filling in the details What about the whole deal with the exile forming force bonds, and the relation between that and the fact that the exile is this 'wound' in the force? I remember the jedi masters mentioning it and attempting to disconnect me from the force because of it, but I never quite understood how or why that worked? Speaking of that too, when I replayed that bit today, I hit an interesting big which I didn't even know existed: On Dantooine When I asked the council why they went into hiding (i accidentally clicked that one, i usually didnt bother because id asked all 4 of the jedi masters previously), and Vrook got a bit upset and i went through a question or two and then the game sort of went skitz on me... all the Masters died and fell down, but then quickly got back up again... and then Kreia came in and started talking to me as if I had killed all of the council... even though they were standing right there! Then she went on to ask me if I got any satisfaction out of killing them... but I hadnt killed them, so I said that I wasnt satisfied because there was still sith left to kill. She went nuts, got angry and said I woudl be responsible for the destruction of the universe, then burned me with her lightening and abandoned me... but not before saying she was through with me ..... has anyone else gone down that road? I assume its a dark side path, but I think I sort of ruined it because I killed the jedi council but then sorta answered the questions from a light side perspective - Dan

Hi, I just finished KOTOR 2 and I have to say after being absorbed in it for hte last 1-2 weeks, I feel a litle empty :| Not only because its all over, but because I dont feel it was ended very well. I mean, from the light side perspective (all ive played), it pushes you into forming relationships and bonds with other characters, and they seem to have done that really well, but then at the end they give me this horrible ending whereby I don't really get to actively end the game and give the relationships a bit of closure. I thought Visas was an intruiging and awesome character and I guess I sort of shifted my focus to her a fair bit (we looked upon eachother.... lol, don juan eat your heart out!). I dont play many games anymore since work consumes so much of my time, but I was truly absorbed in this game, it was crazy, and I really did think my girlfriend was going to leave me cause I wouldnt return her calls lol Anyway, Ive since discovered this forum and read lots of intruiging info from you guys and gals who share an interest in this game, so I thought this would be the best place to field to you guys the questions I have about this game: 1. Can someone please explain again to me.. what was Kreia's purpose through all of this? Obviously at the end she made it clear she hated the force - however she seemed satisfied enough with herself that she had trained me to be a strong jedi despite the will of the force (which i assume means the fact that I turned away from power at malachor and was deafened, but learnt to feel the force again). So what was all that atris said about Kreia wanting to create another echo in the force, one larger than the one created by the Mandalorian war? I think I am perhaps missing the bigger picture? 2. Relating to 1. - Did Kreia used to be a Jedi? and then fell to the dark side and then became neutral? I mean I guess being a 'jedi' as such is pretty finite, but during the early stages of the game I was under the impression she was a force user, and technically a sith because of her attitudes, but not necesarilly part of the 'dark side'? I'm really not sure about this, but regardless I like the way game used the characters (especially Visas and Kreia) to blur the traditional black/white view of the jedi and the sith. 3. Why is what happened on Malachor V all the characters fault? Everyone seems to be blaming me as if I was the only one there I mean it sounded like a big war, my guy couldnt have been the only general. Or is it just that my guy was the only force user to reject the power available after the destruction and death of the mandalorian wars and then return to face the council? 4. What is the overall premise of the whole 'echo in the force' thing? Is it basically just that the death and destruction during the war caused an 'echo', and it affects force users greatly, and you basically have the choice to thrive on it and fall to the dark side or if your strong enough, turn away and then be deafened from the force? And if you do the latter... you get the ability to form strong force bonds? I mean this stuff was explained and I read it... but I just fail to understand it... I assume its just me. 5. I haven't played the first game (I will as soon as i've put in an appearance at this thing called real life for a bit, lol), so if this is related to that, then just say so but: I remember Sion say something about Revan also turning away from the power that the echo represented (he was saying I was weak, like him) or something similar.... did I read that wrong? I thought Revan did fall to the dark side? Is it the general opinion of hte people here that the ending that was in the game has perhaps paved the way for a KOTOR3 that involves some of the characters from KOTOR2? I mean the ending described (that I dont totally understand... big suprise!) that was peiced together from the missing bits sorta makes it very hard to include characters in a 3rd installment, but the whole "hey im happy let me give you a present and show you the future of your friends but ill be vauge enough that we can still use them" thing sorta makes me think its possible. Personally i'd love to see a questions style again at the beginning of KOTOR3 that finds out about your KOTOR2 experience and uses it, so that they can do KOTOR3 properly and give me some closure with Visas, Atton and co. - however im not very optimistic about that. Sorry about the huge post, but its a big game, and the sudden end of the game and then the discovery of so much new info (eg: i only found out about the missing bits and stuff today) has left me with so many questions that im not 100% sure of. Any answers woudl be appreciated - from what ive read im sure most of the poeple here have all the info I need in their heads Cheers, - Dan PS: my fingers hurt from typing