Volourn

Balony. ME countries use the West as scapegoats when the ones who treat their people the worst or the ME leaders. Just look at how they treat Palestine all the while bashing Isreal. Don't blame the US for the sorry state of the ME. That's the ME's doing.

"it's simply an organization looking to fill it's coffers; you can't put the blame on them for putting people out of jobs & hurting econony." Hamas is the democratically elected governemtn of Plaestine. It is their job to do what's best in the inetrest of Palestinian civilians which they do not. "(because countries don't take part in suicide bombings, extremist groups do)." Wut? Sure, they do. Isn't old skool Japan known for its kamakazee type of attacks? Palestine also commits sucide bombings and that's a governing body of a country. So, why make stuff up? I think the misatek you people are making is assuming I'm notsome hardcore Isreal backer. I'm not. I'm all for a Palestine country. In this thread, I criticzed Isreal for how it handle this particular situation. I still find out Hamas, and Palestine seems to get a free pass from anti Isreal groups. "Assuming it's the latter, lol. Considering Israel had the western world's support from the very beginning, and considering their economical & military strenght, I doubt they recieved any kind of psychological trauma, suicide bombings aside (because countries don't take part in suicide bombings, extremist groups do)." Western support from the beggining? L0LZ How quickly one forgets the Holocaust. How quicjkly forget the constant attacks on isreal by the UN despite there being much worst countries in the world when it comes to abusing human rights. Let's not forget the 6 Muslim countries that all attack Isreal at once. Or the threat by iran to wipe 'Isreal off the map'. That's the difference. Isreal isn't trying to wipe out Palestine, but the current democratic leaders of Palestine surely would wipe out Isreal if they could, as would Iran. "I doubt they recieved any kind of psychological trauma" Yeah, because the the threat of constant rocket attacks or suicide bombings at bust stops and coffee shops isn't psychologically traumatic. Come on, now. Palestine and Isreal are BOTH guilty of inflicted psychological trauma each other, and until they BOTh ship up, it will continue.

"And Jews were not the original inhabitants of Israel, either. That would be the Canaanites, or perhaps an even earlier group of tribal hunter-gatherers which has ultimately disappeared from the historical record." Never clamed they were. That's why I had (and others) in brackets. "In the 21st (and late 20th) century, destroying people's homes and taking their lands for your own people is not considered the norm. It is considered outrageous and out of the question. And yet Israel did that. And now they're destroying Gaza's economy in an attempt at psychological warfare hoping they'll just give up and leave." You just dscribed how every Muslim country in the ME feels and has done to Isreal, and you probably justify it. And, Gaza's economy is destroyed because of Hamas, the rulers of Palestine.

"So it would be okay for native Americans to drive whites out of the new world?" No. They weren't the original inhabitants of NA either despite the 'native' part of their name. On top of that, considering the fact, the natives (which btw I am technically enough indian blood in me to be considered for bigoted native only bonuses in Kanada go figure), hypocriticval claim that 'nobody owns then lan and is everybody's all the while staking their claim on it. On top of that, indiains had a habit of murdering each other for the land, women, and goods (and, yes, I know now all tribes were like that as there were peaceful ones as well) so what's good for the goose is good for the gander. So, yeah, if Natives could take out 'whitey' (it';s nice to see your bigotry towards whites is high sicne you didn't bother to mention blacks, mexicans, and other races just the big bad boogeyman whitey) then by golly they could do it. In conclusion, antives NEVER owned NA so they have no real claim to it contrary to what butthurt people think. Like I said above, going by many Native teachings, NOBODy can technically own land and it's owned by 'everyone'. So.. why so butthurt? P.S. The alrger issue though is that peoplem who spouse the fact that the 'jews stole palestinian land' is laughable modern talk since a) the land was jewish before it was stolen and b) palestinian is a modern made up term, anyways. P.S.S. This doesn't mean eveyrthing Isreal is does right. In fact, they do lots of things wrong. But, let's not make up facts.

"Why is it that if anyone says anything mildly bad against the jewish people, it's anti Semitic but when anyone does that to any other group (or they do it to any other group) it's not made much of?" Kiddin' right? Say stuff about Blacks, Muslims, and Mexicans, and watch the accusations of bigotry fly. I feel for the poor Asians myself as people seem to be able ttrash them and get away with it. "They've been stealing Palestinian land since the 30s." Nonsense. The 'Palestinians' are a makebelieve group that was inventtedn out of thin air and are relatively new decribed as 'Palestinians'. The so called Palestinian land was stolen from Jews (and others) well before that. Is it REALLY theft to take back that was stolen from you in the first place? Really wish people would pay attention to real history and not the modern fable that's been pushed as 'fact'.

"Great. You're basically citing only old games. That kinda proves my point, thanks Vol! " Dragon Age. NWN series. KOTOR series. Probalem with bigots who look down from others is that they are ignorant. They simply don't know what theya re talking about. Just because Amerikans may not like AP as much as Europeans do does not mean theya re dumber or hate RPGs. That's silly talk. Plain, and simple. Espicially, since the ratings aren't that much of a difference.

Was it decent human behaviour to fire me? Was it decenet human behaviour that led me to quit? No. I owe them nothing. And, if the products sucks and I feel people who buy it would be wasting their money, then yeah, the product can be considered 'harmful'. I would stand up, and give my opinion, but I would also own it as my own by not hiding anonymously.

"Actually, he didn't say it just based on AP. Also bigotry =/= cultural differences. Looking at various reviews of various non-AAA games, it's clear that european mags (which could or could not be in line with what european gamers think) like RPGs with 'old concepts' more than american ones. There's no bigotry in saying that, and it's not certainly meant as a condescending remark" It is bigotry. No way around it. And, like the vast majority of bigotry, its due to pure wanton ignorance. Amerikans don't like 'old skool' rpgs? Must explain the success of the GB games. The Wizardrys. The Might & Magics. the Fallouts.The Ultimas. the Bgs. This myth that Europeans are all so smarter because they seems to prefer SLIGHTLY one particular action rpg more than Amerikansis silly talk rooted in flat our bigotry. "I think around two and a half million is accurate for all platforms (assuming about a million on Xbox 360, and maybe half that on PS3), which is still good, but not great, especially considering how long it took to make the game (and also when you consider how hard EA has been pushing for post-release DLC)." Silly talk. 3mil copies sold is fantastic. Anymore than that, and DA would be at the level of true mainstream games like Mario, Madden, and the like. BIO is not at that level. Any game that sells 3mil is a blockbuster. "most fans of games in the genre also generally aren't too concerned with mainstream Western titles." Any evidence? Speaking in generalities really helps nobodye spicuially with words like 'most' can mean almost anything. (just like almost) "Knights of the Old Republic is Star Wars, and anything Star Wars will sell." Nah. No doubt there are SW games that flop or sell middle of the world. SW games, in a way, are a niche. "hover between 200,000 and 600,000 on average - not awful by any means, but definitely falling into niche territory." You make it sound like it's the norm for games to sell a mil+. It isn't. A game hit a mil, it's a hit. m Niche is way too broad of a word to mean anything. D&D is a niche afterall, yet the fanbase is huge enough to support games. SW is a niche yet obvious the fanbase is huge. "Mass Effect isn't much of an RPG. Gameplay-wise it's a relatively sloppy shooter, and it features simplified play mechanics. Mass Effect 2 was dumbed down even more to the point where it's basically an action game, and from what I recall it outsold the original Mass Effect almost two to one. " Doubtful. Last accounting was ME2 at just over 3 mil, and ME1 sold about 3mil copies. And, oh, both MEs are Action RPGs. As for DA, it's sold 3mil+ copies as well. To claim it was some sort of 'mild success' is silly... unless you were really expecting it to sell 10mil copies which would be silly since most BIO hits sell in the rnage of 3mil. This is why, while JE was a solid hit, it wasn't a block buster since it sales, IIRC, came in about 1.5-2mil. Still a goopd amount, but definitely not BIO blockbuster numbers.

"I think Europeans in general like RPG's and Adventures more than our American counterparts..." More nonsense. This is simply more bigotry that has no basis in fact. The idea that Europe like RPGs more than Amerikans based on the seperate opinions on one particular game is silly. It's not like it's a secret that Obsidian is a RPG developer. Amerika reviewers surely know this. They simply like AP less than other RPGs. Big deal. They simply prefer NWN2 to AP. *shrug* It's like saying someone doesn't like action games simply ebcause they gave God of War a lower score. L0L

"@ Volourn: The distinction seems to be European reviewers review it as an RPG (which, you know, it is). The American's however thread it as an action game (which, well, it ain't), which gives a very false impression." Nonsense.

75% is still rather not impressive. "Metacritic doesn't seem to have most of the european reviews though. " That's because they tend to focus on well know (on the internet) reviewers not every reviewer. Sucks to be European in this case, it's just the way it is. I do notice there was no Europe vs North Amerika civil war over Obsidian's other games so this tells me there's a lot of butthurt by Europeans because Amerikans don't like a game they've taken to so there's been a lot of bashing Amerikans as to make one feel better. P.S. This doesn't mean I agree with Amerikan (or European) reviewers either. I haven't really given my opinon on the agme itself as I'm currently playing it, and will give my opinion in due time then people can then bash me either as an Amerikan (even though I'm not even Ameirkan, lol but Europeans like to bash everyone as Amerikans) ignoramous for not 'getting it' or an elitist European wannabe. We shall see...

I don't think it's true, and if ti is, the guy is a piece of crap coward. It's that simple. if you are gonna slam someone at least own up to it. Also, this idea in this thread that you somehow 'owe your silence' to former employers is silly. No, you don't (barring contractual agreements legally, of course). You owe them. their former employeers which means they fired you or you quit. If someone fires me I owe them nothing, and if I quit, I obviously had reason to quit so depending on situation, I owe them nothing. If I still respect them then I'll be nice. As for why current Obsidianites claim to like their game, of course they do. Notice hwo the ones who like AP are the ones who own up to their comments/ They're certainly not gonnja slam AP if they still want to work with AP so cna't say for sure if their comments are genuine or not.. but, at least they are a billion times superior than this loser punk since they own up to their words. I LOATHE anonymous sources. They're disgusting creatures, and I avoid them whenever I can.

"it's selling better than Vampire : Bloodlines, and probably Torment too" A. That's not impresssive consideirng we all know what happened to Troika after BL . B. Don't be so sure about PST. While it was no BG in terms of sales, it sold well enough. "So, reviews, even in number, don't mean anything. More than that, reviwers are blatant lyers of accusing a game to have many flaws when you don't see most of the flaws announced. Of course, people expecting a shooter won't find this game is a good shooter, people expecting a stealth game won't find it's a good one. But people expecting a good action RPG with choices that are not railroaded and some moral ambiguities should find a very promising and interesting game." Your opinion isn't any better or worse than anybody's. Your post hasn't proven anything except that you personally like AP. Nothing wrong with that but bashing otehrs for theirs is silly. P.S. 65% on meta critic is really, really, really, really bad. No waya round that number. And, 70ish for gamer scores isn't exactly awesome. People shouldn't forget that other games that don't sell well that people really like tend to do much better in the review scores despite low sales so the metacritic score is disgusting.

"Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is said to be considering sailing to the GAZA strip with an aid flotilla backed by Turkish Navy ships, international news media reported.The Lebanese newspaper al Mustaqbal quoted a security source as saying that the Turkish Prime Minister has been pondering a move that could break the blockage imposed by Israel against Gaza." Yeah... it could break the blockage.. or it could be considered an act of war... military ships entering another country's land. That's just asking for trouble. No doubt, if the US were to think of doing soemthing like this, they'd be called evil troublemakers. P.S. My gov't is as evil as Isreal as we board ships all the time randomly in international waters searching for weapons and illegal goods...

"It's hardly irrelevant when lots of gamers think like that. At least on few finnish gaming sites pretty much every discussion about Obsidian turns into arguments about KOTOR2 vs KOTOR. Salewise it was a success, there's no argument about that. I was talking about the image the game gave Obsidian. Since people still moan about the game being "unfinished"." No. Personal opinion about whether a game is a success or failure IS irreelaqvnt in a thread supposedly dicussing financial success (or failure). "It isn't great, but considering the bashing by both the reviewers of the world, and also your type -- it's not bad, either." If Ap sells just 30k it would be an unmitigated bomb. 30k sells is great if youa re some namby pamby internet only gamer. 30k for a major release such as AP is a flat out disgusting number. Thankfully, I seriosuly doubt AP will onyl sell 30k. It's been too hyped for such a number, and Obsidian's own customer base numbers more than that let alone the random masses. "I'd disagree - I think that the reviewers are more to blame than Obsidian or SEGA." Nope. This is sega, and Obsidian's game. It is THEIR job to convince others to like it not reviewers. Reviewers', barring actual bribery, job is to give their opinion on what they think of the game and either reccommened to play or avoid for their readers. They don't owe Sega/Obsidian nothing. Short of some competitor actually paying reviewers to bash AP, there is two groups responsible for the poor reviewers: Sega, and Obsidian. And, hey, Sega and Obsidian wanted to play with fire by pimping AP as aME wannabe so what did they expect? They would need to deliver a game that completely blows ME out of the water to live up to their pimpage.

"Not everyone considers KOTOR2 a success." Irrelevant. I've heard people call DA a failure because it didnt sell as much as ME. *shrug* Going by the numbers - and since this thread is discussing finances and preumsably that means hard numbers - , and not make believe stuff like quality, creativty, or anything else largely based on one's own opinion, that's what matters. Like mentioned above, anyone who expects AP to sell blockbyuster type numbers is fooling themselevs. Conversely, anyone who thinks Sega or Obsidian would be satisifed with 'niche' type sales are being illogical. AP is a major release. It may not be THE major release, but it definitely is one. "RPGs are fairly niche genre." So, are sports games generally, yet some do rathe well. So, are games absed on tv, comics, or movies. The RPG 'niche' as it were is a rather large one - just ask anyone familiar with the success of DnD: a 'niche' for nerds, yet has been trucking along for decades.

"While numbers like that sound disappointing, one also has to realise that a title like Alpha Protocol is fairly niche," Define 'fairly niche'. AP is a game developed by one of the premier Western RPGs, makers of the successful NWN2 and KOTOR2, and published by a well known company like Sega and as been pimped as being inspired by the super popular ME. That doesn't sound niche. If those sales quoted are accurate, it's not impressive. If I were to wager how much AP sold, and how successful it'll be, I'm sure it'll okay. It won't be a top seller; but it'll do, solid business.

Like Isreal is the first country to use more violence than required to accomplish their goals: *cough* the entire history of Europe *cough*

"The fact that Hamas is the only armed force actively standing up against Israel army tells a different story. I mean, sure, we can play politics on another side of the world, in the safety of our homes, all we can; but like I said we can't know for sure what's going on in Palestinian people's minds, or if Hamas is actually helping them or not." Look, if Hamas was doing such a fine job defending Palestinians from the Big Bad Isrealis, Isreal wouldn't be able to go through Palestine at will whenever they want, and leave when they decide to leave. This is why Hamas' big mode of attack is randomly shooting missles at isreal blindly hoping they kill some baby. Plus, Hamas does a greta job defending Palestinians, they have no problem murdering Palestinians. What a great defender.

"not what's being reported in Swedish newspapers. And in this case I choose to believe my local sources." Hilarious.

"Maybe out of fear? I mean out of fear of Hamas, OR Israel. When someone starts bombing your neighborhood and killing people you know, I think you simply want them to go away, you don't think about "how". You vote for whoever seems more able to protect you, and has the guns to prove it. Or, they could always intimidate you into voting for them with said guns..." Hamas has done a rather poor job defending Palestinians. In fact, they have done nothing to protect Palestine. If that's a reason someone cites for voting Hamas, they are dumb.

"By this quote-unquote "logic," most Americans during the Cold War approved of the systematic overthrow of democratic governments and supplanting them with right-wing autocracies. Check your premises." Check your premises. Difference is, did the voting public know before hand that the governemnt they voted in would do so? if they did, then yeah, theyw ere giving their approval otherwise no. In comparison, most opeople who voted Bush in the first time did not vote for him to invade two countries since he, in fact, ran on the principle of non violent confrotnation... ebfore 9/11 occured and changed everyone's outlook. Palestinians knew before voting for Hamas the kind of group - and political party - they are. They know Hamas targets children and are proud of it. Hamas targets Palestinians, and are proud of it. Hamas's main goal is the iradication of Isreal, and are proud of it. None of this knowledge is secret yet the Palestinians voted for them,, anyways, despite having a suitable altenrative who while anti isreal aren't as bloodthirsty as Hamas. This tells me the Palestinians tatitly approve of Hamas' shenanigans or prefer it to the alternative party's shenanigans. The truth may hurt but it's still the truth. "But still, does it mean "they got what they deserved"?" No, of course not. Nobody deserves to be slaughtered, and wiped out. Including them dirty evil Isreali Jew monsters. "And besides, if it was "Gaza = Palestine = Hamas = Terrorist" then nations around the world would bomb them all to hell instead of sending them aid, and get it over with." A. Most civilized nations tend to try avoid such massacre. B. There's a huge difference 'tcitly approving' of the terroist actions and being a terrorist.. C. Many Palestinians didn't vote for Hamas so obviously disaprove of their actions. Why punish them. D. Many chidlren are there. Why punish them? E. Even Isreal doesn't mass bomb Palestine for multiple reasons (some genuinely morale others for PC reasons) even though they have the capaibility to dos. F. If 'evil terrorist' was a reason to wipe a coyuntry out, NK would have been lit up years ago. Don't be silly.

"how did they manage to escape this horrible, life-threatening situation without casualties" Weren't 9 soldiers injured including some seriously? Those are considered casualties. "Again; Hamas is not a state. It's an extremist group, believing in whatever they believe, doing whatever they do. No one, except for Hamas, can be held responsible for Hamas' actions." Hamas is the democractically elected government of Palestine. The palestine people want them leadingb them. This, to me, says the Palestine people largely agree with what Hamas does.

"This kind of thing doesn't happen in our part of the world," local lawmaker Jamie Reed told the BBC. "" Lying bigot. It just did. Don't be so ignorant, loser punk. Anyways, tragedy like this simply sucks. Whata wack job that loser murderer is.

"From their reviews, it seemed to be a more classic Icewind Dale type game than the standard narrative RPG's we see mostly today. " The difference being that IWD is a genuinely fun dunegon crawl with fun combat, enterteresting encounters, atmospheric locations, cool dungeons, solidm writing, and is just plain fun. Same can't be said for SOZ which is too bad because the idea of an old school dungeon crawk adventure with the added bonus of a deeper character system is absolutely awesome which is why I was looking forward to SOZ and was dissapiinted hence my over the top exaggerated hatred of it.