DigitalCrack

Was there some social media news from one of the devs recently or what do you mean by 'now' ?Now - as in today - or as of the last BB build and/or also in previous builds the armors are/were different - they have different DRs for different damage types within the same categories as well as different DRs from one category to another - they have different recovery penalties from one major type to another (heavy vs medium vs light etc) and these differences offer people the opportunity to choose different armors for different class concepts - in fact even the min/max awesome vs useless crowd has decided there are two different choices - Plate or naked -I am not a min maxer by any means. I just want mid ranged armor to actually be a benefit of some kind to wear. As it stands it actually disadvantages you. "you can still use it and be fine" shouldnt be a reason not to make it better, especially when it could be better.YMMVWell some opinion is founded in fact and others wishful thinking. Considering all the math and playtesting that's been done by many in this thread, it would seem what I say is less opinion and more fact based off current evidence. Maybe if you would go to the same lengths to prove otherwise you could say the same. Post me some vids of in game examples, give me something to experiment with myself like the "min-max crowd" has.I have no desire to "prove" anything to you - the fact that armors are in fact different now is not disputable - it is a FACT to determine this all you have to do is read the descriptions of what each provides - whether or not you or anyone else feel the differences mean or don't mean anything to your playstyle is irrelevant to me - it's your game play or judge it as you wish to but the fact that these armors are different from one another remains along with the fact that they can be used effectively in the game if you choose to do so.Why should description be the "be all end all" if it doesnt translate noticably to gameplay? Wouldn't that mean its broken to some extent? If an object is described as being specifically "x" but yet in actual gameplay/practice doesnt resemble (or descernably so) "x" then something is wrong with it. Basically if they aren't noticably different in gameplay then it doesn't matter if its supposed to be different based on description. Differences in armor are not drastic enough to matter. I am not gonna swap plate for brigadine when up agaisnt crush because even though its described as having better crush defense you would never know in gameplay cause the brigadine bonus makes such an insignificant difference. It performs as indicated - the fact that you find that insignificant does not mean the armor is not different nor that it doesn't offer another choice - you are free to choose to use what ever you wish for whatever reasons you wish that's actually the whole point of having different armors - and that insignificant difference is just another generalization of the whole min/max it's either awesome or useless mindset - nothing wrong with that either but that doesn't mean that everyone plays that way nor that the game should be balanced like that nor that it is the only way to assess the manner in which the game works or doesn't work.So even if brigadine's bonus spares you only one point less damage vs crush (not actual difference just example) than plate then its working as intended and counts as being different?

Was there some social media news from one of the devs recently or what do you mean by 'now' ?Now - as in today - or as of the last BB build and/or also in previous builds the armors are/were different - they have different DRs for different damage types within the same categories as well as different DRs from one category to another - they have different recovery penalties from one major type to another (heavy vs medium vs light etc) and these differences offer people the opportunity to choose different armors for different class concepts - in fact even the min/max awesome vs useless crowd has decided there are two different choices - Plate or naked -I am not a min maxer by any means. I just want mid ranged armor to actually be a benefit of some kind to wear. As it stands it actually disadvantages you. "you can still use it and be fine" shouldnt be a reason not to make it better, especially when it could be better.YMMVWell some opinion is founded in fact and others wishful thinking. Considering all the math and playtesting that's been done by many in this thread, it would seem what I say is less opinion and more fact based off current evidence. Maybe if you would go to the same lengths to prove otherwise you could say the same. Post me some vids of in game examples, give me something to experiment with myself like the "min-max crowd" has. I have no desire to "prove" anything to you - the fact that armors are in fact different now is not disputable - it is a FACT to determine this all you have to do is read the descriptions of what each provides - whether or not you or anyone else feel the differences mean or don't mean anything to your playstyle is irrelevant to me - it's your game play or judge it as you wish to but the fact that these armors are different from one another remains along with the fact that they can be used effectively in the game if you choose to do so. Why should description be the "be all end all" if it doesnt translate noticably to gameplay? Wouldn't that mean its broken to some extent? If an object is described as being specifically "x" but yet in actual gameplay/practice doesnt resemble (or descernably so) "x" then something is wrong with it. Basically if they aren't noticably different in gameplay then it doesn't matter if its supposed to be different based on description. Differences in armor are not drastic enough to matter. I am not gonna swap plate for brigadine when up agaisnt crush because even though its described as having better crush defense you would never know in gameplay cause the brigadine bonus makes such an insignificant difference.

Was there some social media news from one of the devs recently or what do you mean by 'now' ?Now - as in today - or as of the last BB build and/or also in previous builds the armors are/were different - they have different DRs for different damage types within the same categories as well as different DRs from one category to another - they have different recovery penalties from one major type to another (heavy vs medium vs light etc) and these differences offer people the opportunity to choose different armors for different class concepts - in fact even the min/max awesome vs useless crowd has decided there are two different choices - Plate or naked -I am not a min maxer by any means. I just want mid ranged armor to actually be a benefit of some kind to wear. As it stands it actually disadvantages you. "you can still use it and be fine" shouldnt be a reason not to make it better, especially when it could be better. YMMV Well some opinion is founded in fact and others wishful thinking. Considering all the math and playtesting that's been done by many in this thread, it would seem what I say is less opinion and more fact based off current evidence. Maybe if you would go to the same lengths to prove otherwise you could say the same. Post me some vids of in game examples, give me something to experiment with myself like the "min-max crowd" has.

Was there some social media news from one of the devs recently or what do you mean by 'now' ? Now - as in today - or as of the last BB build and/or also in previous builds the armors are/were different - they have different DRs for different damage types within the same categories as well as different DRs from one category to another - they have different recovery penalties from one major type to another (heavy vs medium vs light etc) and these differences offer people the opportunity to choose different armors for different class concepts - in fact even the min/max awesome vs useless crowd has decided there are two different choices - Plate or naked - I am not a min maxer by any means. I just want mid ranged armor to actually be a benefit of some kind to wear. As it stands it actually disadvantages you. "you can still use it and be fine" shouldnt be a reason not to make it better, especially when it could be better.

Yeah but their differences are too subtle and could be much more compelling. Right now its all so insignificant that it really makes no difference or at least no noticable difference.

Aumaua I pronounce with a Polynesian pronunciation. Which makes sense considering they are island-y types

I like it even if only for the fact that it sounds interesting haha. But really I want something that will make armor more compelling, especially if it means individual categories getting their own "identity" (unique benefit to using a certain kind of armor).

Any "foundation" element in a game system has significant relevance to gameplay because it effects everything "above" it. So baseline armor stats have significant gameplay relevance cause they affect the balance of all unique armor since its all built around that baseline.

The release version will not change considerably. The best we can hope for are minor adjustments. The entire current system favours heavy specialization and greatly awards min/maxing. While I share your wishes, I say curb your enthusiasm. Nothing will change considerably in 3 days. To say that the system isn't nice to hybrid builds or utility builds is probably the understatement of the century. That being said, it's also pretty hard to fail irrevocably. Even a really bad build should be able to finish the game. Yeah I will prob play through on normal first and just enjoy the story and emerse myself. With normal most any build I want should feel effective ha, even if technically untrue. I will wait for some significant changes before my second play through.

I hope the release version of PoE allows for viable hybrid builds cause I would love to have more of a utility build (perform decent in multiple roles). The current beta is not nice to hybrid builds.

Just based off the cipher specific dialogue options in the beta that class has peaked my interest. Some of the most interesting developments as a result of being a cipher.

I have three I am split between. A pale elf chanter, a moon godlike paladin, or an orlan cipher. I am think chanter at the moment. I like that's its a unique approach to a bard like class, which I have a weak spot for, and they are actually viable in melee. Its a match made in heaven for me.

So after my most recent play-through, I really dislike how armor currently is. the fact that medium armor really doesn't have any benefit for using it and that plate forces you into a tank role ruined the experience for me a little. It really made armor feel "meh" all around. Armor should be an exciting element not a punishing or pointless element. Edit: Honestly armor should not effect your damage output or at the very least not as much as it does.

Yeah honestly the horns on moon godlike just don't seem appropriate. The portrait looks awesome but the actual heads (for males) don't come close. I get they are supposed to have unique appearances but two of the males heads just don't look good even taking that into account.

I don't follow. Armor currently just increases your recovery time by X%. How does that "amplify any aspect of" gameplay? I'm unclear on what you mean by breaking it down "that far," and what criteria beyond "is it necessary?" you're using to decide whether or not something should be in the game (as I'm fairly certain you aren't suggesting that something that isn't strictly necessary shouldn't be in a game's design, as that would eliminate about 90% of the game). Sorry didn't realize I needed a spreadsheet of figures for you to understand what I was referencing? So when your done nitpicking about stuff that doesn't matter (which was my point) maybe I can get a less douche-y response. Anyway what I said was in reference to the changes you were suggesting for slowed recovery while moving which is unnecessary in the first place because as sensuki has showed many of times it fails at what it was supposed to do (another kite prevention measure).

Ranger disappoints me because all I see is wasted potential. They could have done something far more interesting than ranged pet wielder and even then they managed to make it not as interesting as it could be... Hopefully they have (or will) made some big changes between beta and release version.

I realize most of what's being said now in this thread is kind of "for the heck of it" anymore anyway haha.

That is true. Slowed recovery time can't be effective at preventing kiting "because engagement." That's engagement affecting kiting tactics, not slowed recovery time. I get what you're saying, but it does matter. Or rather, I could just as easily say that it doesn't matter if your speed is faster than the melee attacker or not, because the globally-slowed recovery times while moving already negates its own impact upon kiting discouragement. So, in the case of everything else being identical between the kiter and the kitee (save for the kitee wielding a melee attack instead of a ranged one), the kiter is going to be delayed exactly as much as the kitee between attacks. In fact, if the kiter were "naked," and the kitee had full plate on, the kiter would be completely uninhibited in fleeing and attacking again faster than the kitee could manage to attack again. And that's not even including engagement attacks. For what it's worth, reading some more gave me an idea for how a movement penalty could be useful: Have armor provide a smaller base recovery time modifier than it currently does (something like +.25 sec, +.5 sec, +.75 sec, +1 sec respectively for tiers of armor), then have the current values apply to recovery time slowing while moving. Wearing full plate and you want to jog around everyone all the time? You're going to be a lot more tired from doing that than that guy wearing a couple of animal skins. That would at least be a more sensical application of the idea of movement slowing you down. Of course, you could STILL just use simple stop-delays. Did you move more than like... one footstep? Okay, you can't attack again for .25 seconds. Are you trying to accurately fire a cross-bow? It'll be .75 seconds between your stopping your movement and the actual firing of your ranged weapon. What would be the point of breakingg it down that far and going to such lengths to implement something so unnecessary? I mean gameplay wise that wouldnt amplify any aspect of it.

Disengagement attacks are more than enough to punish movement.I'm curious if anybody feels that the disengagement trait bonuses are even worth taking over other perks. Edit: my punishment in game for this choice is to basically never move when engaged. Personally I will not be taking disengagement bonuses because I feel there are more valuable options, where it seems as if obsidian believes this is a game play value to have a movement based penalty offshot by player selected abilities. What if the ability instead ALLOWED a character to disengage in combat without penalty instead of adding +12 to DR. Wouldn't that bring the system into alignment with playstyles? I'd take that ability for a front line dps or offtank. Those very much reflect my feelings. I don't take anything that gives me disengagement bonuses, because it ends up being a waste to NOT take talents that boost combat efficacy. In my opinion your character should be compitent enough to move around, not nessecitating a learned talent(s). And yes it is a huge waste given that other talents increase your combat abilities far more than any disengagement talent.

Right here is the heart of problem. People use no armor over light and medium armor because the damage output lost is so much greater than the defense it gives. Which is why plate is the only armor worth using and only for characters that built to be tanks, whose damage output is a non-factor. Not to say you can't use mid range armor and make it work, it just wont ever be beneficial or advantageous to do so.

One thing I have not experienced in any playthrough of POE beta is dynamic battle motion. Like in BG2 there were a number of times I had to drop a frontliner back to save a my back row as well as retasking a frontliner to rush my enemies back row. Not that its impossible to doin POE it just doesnt help you to do so cause you have to eat so many penalties or burn through a bunch of abilities to do so.

That's the first time I've heard ANYONE accuse Pillars of Eternity of being simulationist. Are you really sure you've played the game?Are you in love with hyperbole? Do you normally throw out other people's modifier words to twist their sentences into a narrative that allows you to try and attack their credibility?More. More. More. > And it is, factually, more of a simulation of fantasy combat scenarios than IE. As an rpg it is never actually a simulation. That makes no sense...the entire point is to represent complex minutiae with numbers. I'm really concerned that you still don't grasp abstraction layer yet. Please open your mind to new ideas, stop living in the past. It's almost frightening how neurotic your social interaction style is. Do you want to voice chat me? Do you need an irl friend to calm you down? Did you get bit by too many spiders as a kid? I can't fathom why you take something so innocuous, non confrontational, and factual and attempt to construct a conflict out of it. I'm really worried about you. What the difference between sensuki's "attempt to construct a conflict" and your passive-aggressive escaltion of the those conflicts? Your telling him to chill out and then giving him reason to react that way at the same time.Did I create the thread in all caps? I am definitely not escalating, I'm diverting. I want him to be a better human being and argue in good faith. I don't actually care at all about the design outcomes of the game;I gave obsidian money because I trusted the product they would create. Reason to react what way? He chose a comment I made to another person, and intentionally misappropriated what i said to construct a false narrative. That's deceptive, period. I am certainly confrontational but I am not misleading in what I take issue with. And considering how many people have repeatedly pointed out his predatory argument framing to no avail, you are just enabling him by claiming he has an ' excuse '. There is no excuse. Sadly these aren't the EJ forums or this wouldn't even be necessary. Its saying things like "I want him to be a better human being" that escaltes it because it comes off as "I need to teach this lowly peon how to act" whether that's your intention or not. Considering the whole "sensuki is rude and hostile" feels like an attempt to discredit or invalidate his points on the topic or at the very least distract people from the point of his post. So if your going for the whole good Samaritan thing its not being percieved.

That's the first time I've heard ANYONE accuse Pillars of Eternity of being simulationist. Are you really sure you've played the game?Are you in love with hyperbole? Do you normally throw out other people's modifier words to twist their sentences into a narrative that allows you to try and attack their credibility? More. More. More. > And it is, factually, more of a simulation of fantasy combat scenarios than IE. As an rpg it is never actually a simulation. That makes no sense...the entire point is to represent complex minutiae with numbers. I'm really concerned that you still don't grasp abstraction layer yet. Please open your mind to new ideas, stop living in the past. It's almost frightening how neurotic your social interaction style is. Do you want to voice chat me? Do you need an irl friend to calm you down? Did you get bit by too many spiders as a kid? I can't fathom why you take something so innocuous, non confrontational, and factual and attempt to construct a conflict out of it. I'm really worried about you. What the difference between sensuki's "attempt to construct a conflict" and your passive-aggressive escaltion of the those conflicts? Your telling him to chill out and then giving him reason to react that way at the same time.

First off, that argument is a non-starter. At that point, you could just make a sandbox and tell everyone to make up their own rules. The only functionality of unrestricted movement of the kind that the IE games have, is for the player to abuse AI behavior with it. In general, supporting design choices that allow for exploitative behavior isn't something I'm interested in. Secondly, the argument that this further promotes static combat, or that the game promotes static combat, has not even been conceded. As I have already stated, as have many others, I don't play PoE statically. I have never felt that any battle I play would have gone so much better if I was more static. I think that static play styles are perfectly functional and viable. I don't think that they are any more or less functional or viable than other builds. Thirdly, this change that Sensuki is so up in arms about is one that I haven't even noticed, and it sure as hell hasn't had any impact on how I play the game. I don't care whether this change stays or goes, but this constant hyperbole about unmoving battlefields, and especially this framing of anyone not accepting that opinion as people who want static combat, is just pure garbage. People in this thread aren't really supporting the change, as much as they are opposing the insane framing of the discussion. What's considered "exploitive" is opinion honestly like how for me it only falls under that if its a literal glitch or bug being utilized for the purpose of beating encounters. Not creative battle tactics the are allowable through game mechanics. So basically disagreeing on the basis that's its exploitive, or could be, is pointless since its defined differently by everyone. Plus removing the recovery penalty wouldnt even cause the exploitive behavior your afraid of anyway since they already have systems in place aside from the recovery penalty. Which is really why sensuki and other want it gone cause its redundant and unnecessary. Of course sensuki is gonna come off that way when people in this thread are basically saying "this wouldn't really affect me, but why shouldn't you have to suffer?"

For me the absence of options punishing excessive running create an optimal way to play that doesn't represent any sort of a fantasy combat scenario. I love the idea of a hyper mobile character being enabled by a series of choices. This makes it a playstyle for those interested while properly representing how superheric it is to actually fight that way. Like sensuki keeps saying its not the movement that is penalized its the choice to move that is being penalized. And really for no other reason than "we dont want you to choose to move like that in combat". So its not like you can't build a mobile character your just not allowed to play it the way you want.