Dragon Age Reviews Thread

[CoM_Solaufein]

Post your Dragon Age reviews here.

[Enoch]

It's not a full review, but Michael Abbot has post reacting to the game that I find myself largely agreeing with. Excerpt:

 

Dragon Age explores well-defined mythic territory, so complaining about its formulaic nature is like whining about all the singing in opera. No, my problem with Dragon Age isn't about archetypes or storytelling tropes. It's about the all-too familiar mechanical constraints that have worn out their welcome. As games like Dragon Age grow more ambitious, offering role-playing that feels increasingly flexible and responsive, the rigid niggly stuff seems more out of place than ever.

 

Example: I enter a refugee village full of lost orphans and hungry, displaced men and women. They desperately need food, shelter, and supplies. Meanwhile, all around the village I see glowing crates full of goodies that apparently none of these refugees can see. Why? Because those crates are how game enables me to replenish my implausibly large backpack with items I need. A homeless refugee may be paces away from an unlocked stash of valuable stuff, but that stuff is for me and only me. And once I've taken it, I can't give it to anybody except my party pals. It's an RPG thing.

 

Show me a villager deadset on an idea, and I'll show you a villager who's mind can be changed in a moment. A simple "Don't you think you should reconsider this?" from me is enough to provoke a full 180. Why? Because I've been grinding my way through Persuasion boosts for hours. My ability to persuade has almost nothing to do with the power of my ideas or convincing counter-arguments. Who needs 'em? I'm persuasive because I've got mad stats. It's an RPG thing.

 

Let's say I do something awful in the game. Chances are I'll lose status points with one of my party members, but not to worry. I can always boost my status by gifting an item I find in a crate or on the body of one of my victims. No matter how objectionable my actions or how vociferously my companions object, redemption is just around the corner with a little trinket largesse. Scruples? Who needs 'em? Why? Because the game needs a mechanism for allowing me to boost my status and hold onto my party members. Mechanics trump character integrity. It's an RPG thing.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Enoch

[Monte Carlo]

^ I see where the guy is coming from, to an extent. But this is a game.

 

Some folks seem to want a fantasy-medieval life simulator. I don't. Hey why have those refugees got teeth? There's no dentists in Ferelden, right? I can't find one (etc).

 

Cheers

MC

[Humanoid]

To be fair I don't think tooth decay was a major issue until the advent of the modern diet.

[Slowtrain]

Stuff in crates has been an rpg staple for years. So is walking into people homes and rifling through their shelves. And a host of other bizarre activities. I wouldn't be opposed to a crpg that had the stones to take this sort of stuff out, but it's not really worth complaining about unless you simply hate every crpg ever made.

[Humanoid]

Stuff in crates has been an rpg staple for years. So is walking into people homes and rifling through their shelves. And a host of other bizarre activities. I wouldn't be opposed to a crpg that had the stones to take this sort of stuff out, but it's not really worth complaining about unless you simply hate every crpg ever made.

 

Ultima 4 - but then that was the whole point of the game.

[Fighter]

He begins by sighting the much worshipped Baldur's Gate. Didn't that have all the same problems?

[Monte Carlo]

Ah, but Fighter, BG1 had that brilliant theft dynamic where you could get spotted, thus alerting the Flaming Fist and either getting a reputation hit or a ruck with the guard.

 

This made burglary missions around Baldur's Gate (remember the museum) brilliant fun, using stealth, invisibility potions etc. And getting loot.

 

They got rid of it for BG2 because of forum whining. Which was a shame.

 

Cheers

MC

[Enoch]

He begins by sighting the much worshipped Baldur's Gate. Didn't that have all the same problems?

Sure it did. The whole point is that certain conventions of the genre are looking more and more outdated with each passing iteration. The characters and stories are gaining depth, but the gamey-ness of the world around them is undercutting the player's enjoyment of it.

 

The 'stuff in crates' objection, to me, isn't as jarring as the 'persuasion' thing. Reward for investing in a skill is nice and all, but the writing supporting it in DA so far feels way too much like "I believe X!" "[Persuade] You should change your mind" "I believe Y!" Some of the NWN2 conversations are a nice counterpoint here-- I think Obsidian's writers were better at making the PC's success in persuasion more plausible to the Player. It should feel like a conversation, not a skill check.

[Fighter]

I recall some fairly well made NWN modules that did not have any loot in random barrels in the street and it worked just fine. But all in all that's really a non issue at least to me.

 

And I had always hated any use of stats in conversation ever since Planescape Torment essentially forced me to play a mage or be screwed of all the meaty conversation options.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Fighter

[Oner]

What I'd like to really see lost is the stupid hero mentality some RPGs have:

*you see a man in a prison - he tells you his story of how he became a serial killer for lulz and tortured dozens of families in ways that would make the Big Bad crap himself*

-Oh you poor person, you deserve REDEMPTION! Let me help you/forgive you INSTANTLY!

VS

*you see an always chaotic evil something*

-*screaming like a stuck twon'ha* DIE FOUL [insert species]! (And this line never changes, always this.)

Sure, you can RP a gradual change in the PC as the conversation goes on, but the whole sentence, and the mental picture of the pure pureness purity PC suddenly screaming it like a 5 y/o is making the whole thing incredibly childish.

[TheHarlequin]

Stuff in crates has been an rpg staple for years. So is walking into people homes and rifling through their shelves. And a host of other bizarre activities. I wouldn't be opposed to a crpg that had the stones to take this sort of stuff out, but it's not really worth complaining about unless you simply hate every crpg ever made.

 

It's called Fallout 3 for repercussions of stealing in someone home/store. And I am pretty sure NWN2 cut down on this as well though my memory may be a big foggy on NWN2.

[Slowtrain]

I don't understand why one would be opposed to using stats in dialouge or a persuasion skill.

 

Isn't that one of the things that makes an rpg versus say a shooter?

[Hurlshort]

Wait a sec, you folks went around looting barrels and crates in Lothering? Geez, those were probably the only worldly possessions of those poor refugees! Of course they didn't challenge you for them, you were heavily armed.

[Slowtrain]

Stuff in crates has been an rpg staple for years. So is walking into people homes and rifling through their shelves. And a host of other bizarre activities. I wouldn't be opposed to a crpg that had the stones to take this sort of stuff out, but it's not really worth complaining about unless you simply hate every crpg ever made.

 

It's called Fallout 3 for repercussions of stealing in someone home/store. And I am pretty sure NWN2 cut down on this as well though my memory may be a big foggy on NWN2.

 

 

Fallout 3 had more crates than any game I've ever played and you could take whatever you wanted from 90% of the shelves in the game without penalty and on most of the remaining 10% the penalty was so nothing that it didn't matter.

[Oner]

I liked the Arcanum approach: You have enough skill, now try to guess what they "want" to hear.

Then again, I never complained about Fallout and friends (Bloodlines, etc).

[TheHarlequin]

The 'stuff in crates' objection, to me, isn't as jarring as the 'persuasion' thing. Reward for investing in a skill is nice and all, but the writing supporting it in DA so far feels way too much like "I believe X!" "[Persuade] You should change your mind" "I believe Y!" Some of the NWN2 conversations are a nice counterpoint here-- I think Obsidian's writers were better at making the PC's success in persuasion more plausible to the Player. It should feel like a conversation, not a skill check.

 

Obsidian simply has better writters then Bioware. I do not think thats ever been disputed. At least made by non-bioware fan boys.

 

If Obsidian got ahold of DA writting wise, I think it would have gone from a 8/10 to a 9.5/10 if not 10/10. Not to take away from Bioware they do good solid writting but I found Obsidian do great writting. See NWN1 vs NWN2 for example.

[TheHarlequin]

Stuff in crates has been an rpg staple for years. So is walking into people homes and rifling through their shelves. And a host of other bizarre activities. I wouldn't be opposed to a crpg that had the stones to take this sort of stuff out, but it's not really worth complaining about unless you simply hate every crpg ever made.

 

It's called Fallout 3 for repercussions of stealing in someone home/store. And I am pretty sure NWN2 cut down on this as well though my memory may be a big foggy on NWN2.

 

 

Fallout 3 had more crates than any game I've ever played and you could take whatever you wanted from 90% of the shelves in the game without penalty and on most of the remaining 10% the penalty was so nothing that it didn't matter.

 

Not sure what fallout3 you played but not the one I did. You steal in front of someone in their home/store it usually ended up in a fight of them defending their property. You steal when no one is looking you lost karma. Repercussions as I said.

[Fighter]

I don't understand why one would be opposed to using stats in dialouge or a persuasion skill.

 

Isn't that one of the things that makes an rpg versus say a shooter?

 

Because they are poorly balanced. In D&D social skills for some builds are also their combat skills. I'd say either keep them separate or don't use at all. Just making choices fits fine with what I understand as role playing. Conversations in most rpgs aren't even defined by your stats, those checks only show up sometimes.

[Purkake]

Obsidian simply has better writters then Bioware. I do not think thats ever been disputed. At least made by non-bioware fan boys.

 

If Obsidian got ahold of DA writting wise, I think it would have gone from a 8/10 to a 9.5/10 if not 10/10. Not to take away from Bioware they do good solid writting but I found Obsidian do great writting. See NWN1 vs NWN2 for example.

 

But what about the broken tactics system and crappy AI and super difficult everything?

[Fighter]

I thought NWN1 HoTU was better than NWN2.

[Purkake]

You and everybody else.

 

But I think he meant the main campaigns.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Purkake

[Slowtrain]

Because they are poorly balanced.

 

 

If that's the case, I agree. Anything can be done badly if it is poorly balanced: too powerful, too easy, etc. The Gifted trait in Falllout 1/2 is a prime example.

 

However, the concept of using stats, skills, and other aspects of the player character to influence the game, inckuding conversation and social relations is pretty important to a crpg. Otherwise you['ve just got an action game.

Edited November 12, 2009 by Slowtrain

[Slowtrain]

Stuff in crates has been an rpg staple for years. So is walking into people homes and rifling through their shelves. And a host of other bizarre activities. I wouldn't be opposed to a crpg that had the stones to take this sort of stuff out, but it's not really worth complaining about unless you simply hate every crpg ever made.

 

It's called Fallout 3 for repercussions of stealing in someone home/store. And I am pretty sure NWN2 cut down on this as well though my memory may be a big foggy on NWN2.

 

 

Fallout 3 had more crates than any game I've ever played and you could take whatever you wanted from 90% of the shelves in the game without penalty and on most of the remaining 10% the penalty was so nothing that it didn't matter.

 

Not sure what fallout3 you played but not the one I did. You steal in front of someone in their home/store it usually ended up in a fight of them defending their property. You steal when no one is looking you lost karma. Repercussions as I said.

 

 

 

Yeah,. not sure what Fallout 3 you played but I took stuff right of the table in front of people and a lot of times no one even cared. Any other time, as long as they weren't looking you could clean them out. As far as the karma hit goes, well, karma is pretty much completely meaningless in FO3 so who cares.

[TheHarlequin]

You and everybody else.

 

But I think he meant the main campaigns.

 

Exactly