Armour & weapon designs - a plea (part IV).

[PrimeJunta]

If polearms are in, I hope they will be dealt better than in D&D, as a bunch of identical 1d10 weapons to avoid.

D&D actually treats polearms just fine, if anything, they're overpowered. It has rules about reach, and having an extra hex of reach makes for a massive advantage to attacks of opportunity and such. The trouble is that in order to apply these rules you need to play with miniatures and a grid, and in cRPG's it won't work in a RTwP system.

 

Temple of Elemental Evil implements the rules really well. A fighter with Great Cleave and specialization in a polearm is scarily effective. Zap him with an Enlarge and he'll clear out an entire largish room without having to take a step.

 

(Overpowered? Yeah. With the extra reach, polearms dominate; there's no point for a fighter to use anything else. If there were penalties to attack the closest hex, it would balance things out.)

[Jarmo]

 

 

 

I'm hoping that we'll see at least some of the weapons out of this set :

 

Hmm.. there was some mention/question/racognition of the problem of multi-function weapons, will you stab or slash or crush with these.

Can you choose between piercing and slashing damage with a sword?

 

With 3 options to choose from, these would need a solution just for them, which might or might not seem like the thing to do.

 

Good point. But I seem to remember that it's been mentioned that some weapons have multiple damage types and basically apply the most optimal one on a target basis (i.e. if you're attacking someone highly resistant to slashing attacks, your weapon will deal piercing damage instead - if it has that capability, of course).

 

If that's the case, automatic selection of optimal damage, then one of those with hammerhead, axeblade and a spear point would seem like a really, really versatile pick.

Be it a longer polearm or a shorter one, good meaty pollaxes for everybody.

 

 

 

If polearms are in, I hope they will be dealt better than in D&D, as a bunch of identical 1d10 weapons to avoid.

D&D actually treats polearms just fine, if anything, they're overpowered. It has rules about reach, and having an extra hex of reach makes for a massive advantage to attacks of opportunity and such. The trouble is that in order to apply these rules you need to play with miniatures and a grid, and in cRPG's it won't work in a RTwP system.

 

Temple of Elemental Evil implements the rules really well. A fighter with Great Cleave and specialization in a polearm is scarily effective. Zap him with an Enlarge and he'll clear out an entire largish room without having to take a step.

 

(Overpowered? Yeah. With the extra reach, polearms dominate; there's no point for a fighter to use anything else. If there were penalties to attack the closest hex, it would balance things out.)

 

 

.. I stand corrected actually. I was thinking of D&D CRPG's, not the tabletop (of which I've only played 1st edition, red box), and even then forgot ToEE.

I did like the reach weapons a lot in ToEE, but... that's the only one isn't it? in all others they were just 2-handed weapons with less damage than the good 2-handers.

 

And yeah, some downside to having a huge weapon with big reach would also be welcome.

[Karranthain]

 

 

 

 

I'm hoping that we'll see at least some of the weapons out of this set :

 

Hmm.. there was some mention/question/racognition of the problem of multi-function weapons, will you stab or slash or crush with these.

Can you choose between piercing and slashing damage with a sword?

 

With 3 options to choose from, these would need a solution just for them, which might or might not seem like the thing to do.

 

Good point. But I seem to remember that it's been mentioned that some weapons have multiple damage types and basically apply the most optimal one on a target basis (i.e. if you're attacking someone highly resistant to slashing attacks, your weapon will deal piercing damage instead - if it has that capability, of course).

 

If that's the case, automatic selection of optimal damage, then one of those with hammerhead, axeblade and a spear point would seem like a really, really versatile pick.

Be it a longer polearm or a shorter one, good meaty pollaxes for everybody.

 

Indeed, pollaxes really were quite versatile (not to mention fearsome), as were the halberds - so much in fact, that it's diffcult to pinpoint their significant weaknesses.

 

Pollaxes were definitely mentioned a couple of times, so I think it's a safe bet we'll see those in PE; here's hoping we'll also see halberds :

 

Edited October 19, 2013 by Karranthain

[Jarmo]

 

 

If that's the case, automatic selection of optimal damage, then one of those with hammerhead, axeblade and a spear point would seem like a really, really versatile pick.

Be it a longer polearm or a shorter one, good meaty pollaxes for everybody.

 

Indeed, pollaxes really were quite versatile (not to mention fearsome), as were the halberds - so much in fact, that it's diffcult to pinpoint their significant weaknesses.

 

I'd hazard a guess the weakness comes in form of added weight and cumbersomeness.

Compared to say.. a spear with no extra blades, or a sword.

 

A slightly slower attack speed might be the best way to handle the issue.

Or more fatigue from each swing. But is fatigue even in, don't think so.

 

Wonder if requirement for free space around you could be factored in?

Less than sufficient space means negatives to attack.

[SophosTheWise]

According to Adam in the "to all our backers and fans" thread, there will be no Landsknecht gear in PE

[AGX-17]

Good grief, obyknven, have you even read anything about who the Vilians are?

He's not obligated to read anything written in the subhuman grunts from which the psuedo-language of "English" is composed.

 

 

According to Adam in the "to all our backers and fans" thread, there will be no Landsknecht gear in PE

I still don't understand this obsessive desire to see real-world medieval military equipment replicated with 100% accuracy in a fantasy world in which Charlemagne and the HRE and so on never existed (what with it not being Earth and all that jazz.)

[PrimeJunta]

According to Adam in the "to all our backers and fans" thread, there will be no Landsknecht gear in PE

But there will be colorful tabards, breastplates, big hats with feathers, and greatswords. It'll look just like a Landsknecht!

[JFSOCC]

 

.........Don't like Vailian design. Africans have rich and exotic own culture.....

 

I agree whole heartedly. It would be awesome if the Vailians drew more inspirations from Africa Prime influences.

 

What because they're black they must have African based culture? I find that to be pigeon holing the Vailians based on their appearance. Anyway, this isn't ****ing earth, it's a unique world, inspired from but not based on ours.

[SophosTheWise]

 

According to Adam in the "to all our backers and fans" thread, there will be no Landsknecht gear in PE

But there will be colorful tabards, breastplates, big hats with feathers, and greatswords. It'll look just like a Landsknecht!

 

 

It never will! A Landsknecht has sliced clothing! Everything is just bogus!

 

Kidding of course

[Merlkir]

To get back to the Vailian issue - it's a no win situation really. If they were indeed dressed as pseudo-Africans, someone would come up and call this lazy design, stereotyping of black people and racist caricature.

 

If I remember correctly, the Vailians draw inspiration from several Earthly cultures, one of them being Moorish Spain in the early medieval period, only if the reconquista didn't happen. 

What would that look like? You'd have this super scientific, advanced culture of dark skinned people, possibly at least partially adopting the dress of the renaissance. ie - The Vailians. Yes.

 

There will always be someone to complain, without trying to understand why something is designed the way it's designed.

[obyknven]

To get back to the Vailian issue - it's a no win situation really. If they were indeed dressed as pseudo-Africans, someone would come up and call this lazy design, stereotyping of black people and racist caricature.

 

If I remember correctly, the Vailians draw inspiration from several Earthly cultures, one of them being Moorish Spain in the early medieval period, only if the reconquista didn't happen. 

What would that look like? You'd have this super scientific, advanced culture of dark skinned people, possibly at least partially adopting the dress of the renaissance. ie - The Vailians. Yes.

 

There will always be someone to complain, without trying to understand why something is designed the way it's designed.

Moorish Spain?  O'RLY?

 

 

 

No-no, Vailians draw inspired by this: 

 

Its just English outfit from XVII century. In other words we can continue our fap to superior European culture.     

[SophosTheWise]

To be fair, what we've seen up until now from Vailians does not look like moorish spain. It generally looks like early 17th century stuff. A bit like this:

 

 

 

 

 

Albeit with more colour.

The whole "suerior European culture" shebang is absolute bull****. We can also flip your situation around: why shouldn't a black person be allowed to be portrayed in a Venetian style? Why not?

[Merlkir]

Obyknven, dude, can you read, or are you just wildly lashing out against random keywords? Moorish Spain, if the reconquista didn't happen, and also hundreds of years later. Also the Venetian Republic. Hence the much later period clothing. Good grief.

 

Troll harder, man.

[obyknven]

Obyknven, dude, can you read, or are you just wildly lashing out against random keywords? Moorish Spain, if the reconquista didn't happen, and also hundreds of years later. Also the Venetian Republic. Hence the much later period clothing. Good grief.

 

Troll harder, man.

 Moorish Spain, if the reconquista didn't happen, and also hundreds of years later = Morocco.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alc%C3%A1cer_Quibir

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Morocco

And Moroccan don't looks like French/English Europeans. Technological advanced nation not same thingl as  Europiezied nation.

Also the Venetian Republic. They apperance not similar to French or English too. Venetian dress more similar to Ottoman, Arabic, Albanian and Slavic dress.

http://aneafiles.webs.com/renaissancegallery/kaftan.html

 

 

[Merlkir]

Except Morocco isn't in Europe and didn't have such an immediate contact with other European cultures. (compared to Spain)

 

What clothing in such a culture would've looked like is a speculation, strongly based on the opinion of the person making it. Obviously the concept artist tried to make the clothes more colourful and lively. What you post is pretty cool, I like the patterns and shapes. But, even knowing all this, the world of Eternity is not exactly like Earth. While there are cultures on a similar evolutionary level as some on Earth, they're not the same and they're not nearly living in the same conditions. So drawing precise direct analogies won't work.

 

Yes, the Vailians could've looked more exotic. Still, my point stands, someone would've complained about it just as well.

 

The 17th century look is (I think) used in a contrast to the less sophisticated looking early/middle medieval cultures in the world of Eternity. It hints at the cultural relationship between Vailians and the others.

That said, we've only seen a few examples of Vailian clothing. Who knows if their wizards won't wear something akin to the long flowing kaftans?

[PrimeJunta]

FWIW, I like the Vailians, and think it's just a cool twist that they have dark skin.

 

I also find it a bit pointless to have all of us (presumably) white guys speculating if it's racist or not. Race is a fraught issue though and there isn't going to be any way that's not going to cause some criticism if the people designing the game and writing the lore are mostly white (as I believe is the case here). Don't include non-whites, and you'll be accused of racism. Include non-whites modeled on actual cultures, and you'll be accused of cultural appropriation. Include non-whites but don't base them on an actual non-white culture, and you'll be accused of tokenism or blackface.

 

I would like to see more non-whites (and women, for that matter) as lead designers and writers on games, though, not least because they'd be able to draw from their own cultural and historical experience without running into these shoals, which would benefit everyone. But as it is, the PE leads are white. I'm fairly certain they don't have racist intent, and at least they've picked an option which is different from the usual "make everybody white" one. So yay for that I say.

 

If there are any blacks here, it'd be interesting to hear if they find the Vailians offensive; I'd be inclined to lend that a good deal more weight. (Or Maori/Polynesians re the Aumaua, for that matter.)

[Merlkir]

That's a bit odd. At the risk of getting into the whole "let's redefine racism" debacle again, is race something that qualifies a person to judge a portrayal of that race as "valid"? Black designers might make games with black people in them for obvious reasons, but it seems strange to assume they're ultimately more knowledgeable about the relevant bits of history/anthropology than white designers are. Seems to me like Sawyer knows his stuff, judging from what we got so far, his formspring and his twitter.

If a random black forum member found these designs offensive, would that invalidate them somehow? Even if he or she were actually ignorant and otherwise ill qualified to judge the matter? And you say you'd change your mind based solely on the fact they're offended? (!!) (even implying white people are incapable of knowing what's racist, like, dude...)

 

Dunno, this reminds me of the situation in Scotland where many Scots truly love Braveheart, because it makes "them" look badass. Meanwhile the historically educated minority sigh and slap their foreheads every time they see Mel Gibson.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Merlkir

[PrimeJunta]

@Merlkir – I don't think it's always even possible to arrive at a universal consensus about a portrayal of a race as 'valid.' And I wasn't thinking about historical accuracy; rather, I was thinking about the values, assumptions, affects, and tone in the portrayal.

 

But yes, I would be inclined to give, say, a Czech's opinion about the portrayal of Czechs in a Russian-made game more weight than a Russian's, all else being equal. Because a Czech has more experience being a Czech than a Russian. Of course all else is never equal so the rest of it has to be considered too, but lived experience is always significant.

 

Put another way, I have zero experience of being black, so I don't feel all that qualified to say whether a given portrayal of blacks is racist or not – at least if it's not obviously, overtly, blatantly, and offensively racist.

Edited October 22, 2013 by PrimeJunta

[obyknven]

Except Morocco isn't in Europe and didn't have such an immediate contact with other European cultures. (compared to Spain)

Nation of traders and pirates didn't have such an immediate contact with other European cultures, really.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Moroccan_alliance

These intense relations between England and Morocco are thought to have had a direct impact on the literary productions of the age in England, especially the works of Shakespeare, or The Battle of Alcazar by George Peele.^[29]

These contacts possibly influenced the creation of the characters of Shylock, or the Prince of Morocco in The Merchant of Venice.^[30] It has even been suggested that the figure of Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud may have inspired the character of Shakespeare's Moorish hero Othello.^[31]

 

 

 

The Muslim Moors had a noticeable influence on the works of George Peele and William Shakespeare. Some of their works featured Moorish characters, such as Peele's The Battle of Alcazar and Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice, Titus Andronicus and Othello, which featured a Moorish Othello as its title character. These works are said to have been inspired by several Moorish delegations from Morocco to Elizabethan England around 1600.^[25] A portrait was painted of one of the Moorish ambassadors, Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud ben Mohammed Anoun, who had come to promote an Anglo-Moroccan alliance.

 

Turbans were worn in Renaissance England. While friendly relations were formed between England and the Islamic civilizations of the Middle East in the early 16th century, Persian and Turkish style fashions were sometimes worn by the higher classes as a form of party or fancy dress. During times of interaction with the Ottoman Empire, Queen Elizabeth I of England wore Turkish clothing styles. It was believed that she favoured working with the Islamic sultans of Istanbul rather than the Roman Catholic leaders of Europe. These suspicions were heightened when she asked Sultan Murad III and his son Mohammad III for military assistance. Although she never did receive any assistance from the sultans, her relations with the Sultan and his son did not waver.^[26]

In 17th-century England, there was a second wave of interest in the study of Arabic science and Islamic philosophy. Arabic manuscripts were considered the key to a treasure house of ancient knowledge, which led to the founding of Arabic chairs at Oxford and Cambridge Universities, where Arabic was taught. A large collection of Arabic manuscripts were acquired, collected in places such as the Bodleian Library at Oxford. These Arabic manuscripts were sought after by natural philosophers for their research in subjects such as observational astronomy or mathematics, and also encompassed subjects ranging from science, religion, and medicine, to typography and garden plants.^[27]

 

 

 

FWIW, I like the Vailians, and think it's just a cool twist that they have dark skin.

http://youtu.be/CxeS6AOXz7Q

[Merlkir]

Hm. Yeah, I guess there's a huge disconnect between dark skinned people in a fantasy world and African Americans, whereas Czechs in a Russian game would be much more related to the real world Czechs.

 

Arguments like this are usually dismissed as variants of the "it's just a game", because games are supposed to take stances and draw parallels to real world issues. 

But if we're putting emphasis on the experience of being "something", literally the only thing Earthly black people and Vailians share is the colour of their skin. Is there colour based racism in Eternity? We don't really know. (we know there's been specieism against the Orlans, iirc) Has there been a history of black slaves in Eternity? We don't know. (iirc) 

As much as we can point to Moorish Spain or Venice as pools of inspiration, there isn't much cultural or situational overlap between the Vailians and contemporary black Americans.

 

Heck, if anything, I would expect them to relate to the Orlans more, or the Aumaua. (isn't that what Dragon Age tried to do? the slave elves and stuff?) 

 

I would have to think about this, but somehow the idea that skin colour alone should qualify a group of people to judge the portrayal of fictional people with the same skin colour, sounds a bit racist itself. Like...let's forget all the other circumstances that led to this group being what it is and have their skin be their defining trait.

 

(and I think racism is pretty much objective and recognizable by anyone, I guess we'll have to differ on that.)

[SophosTheWise]

Still, I want to have my question answered: Why can't a black person in a game not wear European clothing? What exactly is racist about that?

 

I find this to be the most important post of all in this debate:

 

I also find it a bit pointless to have all of us (presumably) white guys speculating if it's racist or not. Race is a fraught issue though and there isn't going to be any way that's not going to cause some criticism if the people designing the game and writing the lore are mostly white (as I believe is the case here). Don't include non-whites, and you'll be accused of racism. Include non-whites modeled on actual cultures, and you'll be accused of cultural appropriation. Include non-whites but don't base them on an actual non-white culture, and you'll be accused of tokenism or blackface.

 

[Lephys]

... So... how 'bout them armours and weaponries?

[Karranthain]

I bet one person in particular is pretty happy about how things turned out...

 

[Darkodin]

@JFSOCC “What because they're black they must have African based culture? I find that to be pigeon holing the Vailians based on their appearance.“

 

No, I don't recall saying that at all. I was simply stating my opinion and I hold true to the fact that for me it would be cooler if they had more inspiration from an actual African culture.

 

@SophosTheWise “The whole "superior European culture" shebang is absolute bull****. We can also flip your situation around: why shouldn't a black person be allowed to be portrayed in a Venetian style? Why not? “

 

Perhaps your RPG gaming experience vastly exceeds my own but how many games have you played where you could dress partially let alone completely in armor / clothing inspired by an African culture? I can think of one off the top of my head and that was Diablo III if you played as the Witch Doctor.

 

@PrimeJunta “ 

If there are any blacks here, it'd be interesting to hear if they find the Vailians offensive; I'd be inclined to lend that a good deal more weight. (Or Maori/Polynesians re the Aumaua, for that matter.)

“

No I don't think they are racist, I also don't think basing them on an African culture would be racist. It seems to me that a lot of people get confused by racist vs racially insensitive. In my personal opinion:

 

Racist = Deliberate attempt to insult, humiliate, or damage someone based primarily on race.

 

Racially Insensitive = Not realizing an action, statement, or depiction of a specific race is hurtful to members of said race.

 

At the end of the day when I play a game I try to create a character as close to myself in appearance and action as I can. That's my play style, that's what I find fun. I don't have problems playing as a white guy. The vast majority of games I play are as white males because that is the only option the devs put forth. Is there anything wrong with that? No, of course not. If a developer wants to make a game where the protagonist is a white male that's great. However, I would personally find great satisfaction in being able to make a character inspired by African culture and have them dress accordingly.

 

Every human brings a different point of view to any discussion. 100% consensus is impossible with humanity on almost every conceivable topic. That being said, making an intelligent and thoughtful effort to create a race / faction in a video game inspired by a real race or faction in my opinion by its very nature couldn't be classified as racist.

[Karranthain]

Moving right along...

 

Here's a very interesting piece, highlighting sallets (very intimidating and cool looking helmets), various polearms (pollaxes, spears, halberds and a voulge) as well as some nice gambesons, worn over the armour.