The big nerf list (patch 1.2) (WIP)

[Zeitzbach]

1 % is very much, because theses 5-10 peoples like you said, -understand and think 95 % of the game- the global balance, the global vision, perhaps better than Dev. Because dev have time constraint, they think the game, they code the game, we -live- the game, we challenging the game. We trying to find the loophole of optimization.

 

You don't adjust balance really for casual. Casual sometimes doesn't see a known bug, or a minor fail in the tooltip. Us, yes. Balance is more important for theorycrafter like us.

 

Casual will play once of the game and never come back. I know that, you know that, everybody know that.

 

PotD needs to be hard.

 

 

Very hard.

 

I would say the marketing team will disagree. No one makes a game to be super hard these day unless it is their selling points. Look at D:OS2. It went full casual and became supermegasuccessful.

 

There's a reason why PoE2 remove all the tedious mechanic and made the game more casual. Sequel are known to drop in sale compared to the first unless it's a complete rebranding (Like God of War). It's better for them to just introduce the Berath Curse they mentioned if they want to make PotD super hard and still accessible to casuals.

[Voltron]

 

 

For the last time, using yet another parallel. There is a hill. People want to get on the top. Some hike, some take a cable car and some argue for removing the cable car because they want a challenge.

 

Very good parallel actually. That's how life works instead of forcing everyone to hike.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Voltron

[MadDemiurg]

I think PotD should be balanced around solo play as the ultimate challenge and difficulty. Those who want to play in a party should play on the lower levels. 

 

See what I just did?

 

First, we should realize and agree that there is no right and wrong simply because we are in the realm of opinions and personal preferences. 

Secondly, we should realize and agree that our own opinions and personal preferences are worth the same as opinions and personal preferences of others.

Lastly, we should realize and agree that we have a choice. 

 

For the last time, using yet another parallel. There is a hill. People want to get on the top. Some hike, some take a cable car and some argue for removing the cable car because they want a challenge.

You do realize that "balancing around solo play" makes no sense in terms of bringing difficulty up. Solo play is more difficult, so balancing around difficult situation makes it easy for a party.

 

Let's assume the game would indeed be balanced around solo play. Then the expectation would be the party play (which is a lot easier) would be ridiculously easy (like, 5 times easier).

 

Fun thing is, game is too easy even solo now, let alone with a party. Currently it's already balanced around something like 0.5 character play.

Edited May 18, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Zeitzbach]

 

I think PotD should be balanced around solo play as the ultimate challenge and difficulty. Those who want to play in a party should play on the lower levels. 

 

See what I just did?

 

First, we should realize and agree that there is no right and wrong simply because we are in the realm of opinions and personal preferences. 

Secondly, we should realize and agree that our own opinions and personal preferences are worth the same as opinions and personal preferences of others.

Lastly, we should realize and agree that we have a choice. 

 

For the last time, using yet another parallel. There is a hill. People want to get on the top. Some hike, some take a cable car and some argue for removing the cable car because they want a challenge.

You do realize that "balancing around solo play" makes no sense in terms of bringing difficulty up. Solo play is more difficult, so balancing around difficult situation makes it easy for a party.

 

Let's assume the game would indeed be balanced around solo play. Then the expectation would be the party play (which is a lot easier) would be ridiculously easy (like, 5 times easier).

 

Fun thing is, game is too easy even solo now, let alone with a party. Currently it's already balanced around something like 0.5 character play.

 

 

It's like that because enemies can only deal damage or soak damage. No other options.

 

It's like going into a rock paper scissor fight where enemies can only play rock and paper. You need to give your enemies scissor, not take away your own scissor.

[knownastherat]

 

I think PotD should be balanced around solo play as the ultimate challenge and difficulty. Those who want to play in a party should play on the lower levels. 

 

See what I just did?

 

First, we should realize and agree that there is no right and wrong simply because we are in the realm of opinions and personal preferences. 

Secondly, we should realize and agree that our own opinions and personal preferences are worth the same as opinions and personal preferences of others.

Lastly, we should realize and agree that we have a choice. 

 

For the last time, using yet another parallel. There is a hill. People want to get on the top. Some hike, some take a cable car and some argue for removing the cable car because they want a challenge.

You do realize that "balancing around solo play" makes no sense in terms of bringing difficulty up. Solo play is more difficult, so balancing around difficult situation makes it easy for a party.

 

Let's assume the game would indeed be balanced around solo play. Then the expectation would be the party play (which is a lot easier) would be ridiculously easy (like, 5 times easier).

 

Fun thing is, game is too easy even solo now, let alone with a party. Currently it's already balanced around something like 0.5 character play.

 

 

I realize I was using fallacious and selfish argument yes. 

 

Actually, the parallel is not exact. Some people want the cable car just to mover slower and have a treadmill installed in it

 

Yeah, some stuff probably needs to be balanced with regards to other stuff. However, The Caed Nua hall fight as the entry to the game world in PoE was brilliantly designed. It was epic for the first time and remained untrivial even on subsequent playthroughs. Yet it was possible to skip it with Stealth and figurine. What did we get here? 

 

Instead of arguing I am going to play the game.

[JibSail]

 

Two things, real quick.

 

1. I think trying to balance the game before the potd content fix is a bit of a noob move.

Obsidian knows that there are issues with the difficulty and they've said they are working on it.

This means that any suggestion that involves numbers, scaling and/or counters are premature.

 

2. There is more to balancing a game than fixing scaling and numbers. It's about creating a situation where the player (of any skill level) feels that they've earned a victory. This is something that, at it's core, involves mechanics and clever use of illusion.

(A good example of this is how you only get the blue shell in mario cart when you are far behind, or how Max Payne's ai added aim assist without the player knowing after calculating your skill)

 

What I'm trying to say here is that the thread is trying to address a problem that is actually a symptom.

 

We need to try and look past buffing and nerfing and look at unique and clever ways of making the hard core number cruncher feel that they won a fight by the skin of their teeth.

This.

 

Heavy handed blanket nerfs will ruin the experience, it's much better to wait and see where PotD ends up being in regards to difficulty and go from there.I'd much rather they buff encounters then nerf everything to the ground.

 

That said, some things are way out of line like some swift flurry interactions, the brilliant inspiration, faith and conviction/deep faith etc.

 

On the other hand there are some high level abilities which are garbage (looking at you sacred immolation).

 

The thing I'm not quite sure on how they will get around to balancing (or if they will get around to balancing) is the fact that you can get some incredibly OP gear early on, personally I don't mind it being there but some might think it's another way to trivialize the game.

I agree with you that high end gear early in the game is a problem.

 

It is a problem, however only because of one thing: ship prices.

 

Deadfire bombards you with gold, because ships cost a ton.

 

So in stead of buying a new ship, or a hull upgrade and some sails, or traveling supplies, let me buy this legendary armour at the black market for 10 000.

 

The problem here is the fact that ship economy is tied to the regular economy.

 

Poe1 also had high end gear early on, but you could never really afford it and when you could, it was amazing to use (made the game easy)

[dunehunter]

 

 

Balance is important but also making sure the game is not only fun to the minority hardcore player is way more important. Outside a few nerfs, I rather they make PotD hard through careful combat design and not some random number mumbo jumbo that affects the game in general.

 

Like, most of the nerfs being discussed are proposed that the game is balanced around "Solo PotD" build type. That's like, what, 1% of the playerbase?

 

Even after these things being nerfed you can still have fun in story mode thank you.

 

 

Or how about the 1% just go mod their own games instead of assuming the backseat position of a developer.

 

I'm even stomping PotD with Ranger anyway so none of these even matters to me. But of course the entitled Hardcore gamer will probably complain about it after 20 nerfs or so.

 

Go play PoE 1 solo trial of iron on a naked ranger if the game isn't hard enough for you at the moment. Obsidian won't base their whole game direction all over the 1%. It's why they're taking time relooking at PotD instead of dropping the nerf hammers in a few months.

 

 

Where did you get that 1% btw？Also let me remind you a bit, this is not just a problem of PoTD, we never talk about rebalancing PoTD, the entire game is really easy no matter what difficulty you are playing on. 

 

And I can say the same thing, if you think the game is still not easy enough, please go enjoy your game at story mode instead of mocking others and place false numbers here. Maybe you are the 1% of players and you can go mod the game easier for yourself.

Edited May 18, 2018 by dunehunter

[Zeitzbach]

 

 

 

Balance is important but also making sure the game is not only fun to the minority hardcore player is way more important. Outside a few nerfs, I rather they make PotD hard through careful combat design and not some random number mumbo jumbo that affects the game in general.

 

Like, most of the nerfs being discussed are proposed that the game is balanced around "Solo PotD" build type. That's like, what, 1% of the playerbase?

 

Even after these things being nerfed you can still have fun in story mode thank you.

 

 

Or how about the 1% just go mod their own games instead of assuming the backseat position of a developer.

 

I'm even stomping PotD with Ranger anyway so none of these even matters to me. But of course the entitled Hardcore gamer will probably complain about it after 20 nerfs or so.

 

Go play PoE 1 solo trial of iron on a naked ranger if the game isn't hard enough for you at the moment. Obsidian won't base their whole game direction all over the 1%. It's why they're taking time relooking at PotD instead of dropping the nerf hammers in a few months.

 

 

Where did you get that 1% btw？

 

 

Look at PoE 1 Steam Achievement tracker and see how many bother to clear PotD, how many bother to solo and how many even bother to solo trial of iron with everything done.

 

Only 0.6% even bother finishing PotD and 0.3% played it solo. The people trying to balance the game completely around "Hardest possible experience" is even less than 1% of the playerbase.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

I think PotD should be balanced around solo play as the ultimate challenge and difficulty. Those who want to play in a party should play on the lower levels. 

 

See what I just did?

 

First, we should realize and agree that there is no right and wrong simply because we are in the realm of opinions and personal preferences. 

Secondly, we should realize and agree that our own opinions and personal preferences are worth the same as opinions and personal preferences of others.

Lastly, we should realize and agree that we have a choice. 

 

For the last time, using yet another parallel. There is a hill. People want to get on the top. Some hike, some take a cable car and some argue for removing the cable car because they want a challenge.

You do realize that "balancing around solo play" makes no sense in terms of bringing difficulty up. Solo play is more difficult, so balancing around difficult situation makes it easy for a party.

 

Let's assume the game would indeed be balanced around solo play. Then the expectation would be the party play (which is a lot easier) would be ridiculously easy (like, 5 times easier).

 

Fun thing is, game is too easy even solo now, let alone with a party. Currently it's already balanced around something like 0.5 character play.

 

 

It's like that because enemies can only deal damage or soak damage. No other options.

 

It's like going into a rock paper scissor fight where enemies can only play rock and paper. You need to give your enemies scissor, not take away your own scissor.

 

 

You do realize that there's also internal balance, right?

 

Why should I take barb when fighter is tankier and has better AoE?

 

Why should I ever use spell X (e.g. concelhaut's corrosive skin) when spell Y (e.g. meteor shower) does 5x the damage and in AoE on the same level.

 

I'm all for enemies getting smarter etc, but it won't fix internal balance and it won't fix inherently broken combos that just can't be fixed by smarter enemies.

 

You could of course argue that all the stuff that does not do 2k damage should be buffed and then all enemies should be buffed on top, but that's just stat bloat. There's no real difference between these buffs and nerfs, except that nerfs are way easier to do (It's much less work to nerf the smaller number of outliers) and "feel bad" for some people.

Edited May 18, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Zeitzbach]

 

 

 

I think PotD should be balanced around solo play as the ultimate challenge and difficulty. Those who want to play in a party should play on the lower levels. 

 

See what I just did?

 

First, we should realize and agree that there is no right and wrong simply because we are in the realm of opinions and personal preferences. 

Secondly, we should realize and agree that our own opinions and personal preferences are worth the same as opinions and personal preferences of others.

Lastly, we should realize and agree that we have a choice. 

 

For the last time, using yet another parallel. There is a hill. People want to get on the top. Some hike, some take a cable car and some argue for removing the cable car because they want a challenge.

You do realize that "balancing around solo play" makes no sense in terms of bringing difficulty up. Solo play is more difficult, so balancing around difficult situation makes it easy for a party.

 

Let's assume the game would indeed be balanced around solo play. Then the expectation would be the party play (which is a lot easier) would be ridiculously easy (like, 5 times easier).

 

Fun thing is, game is too easy even solo now, let alone with a party. Currently it's already balanced around something like 0.5 character play.

 

 

It's like that because enemies can only deal damage or soak damage. No other options.

 

It's like going into a rock paper scissor fight where enemies can only play rock and paper. You need to give your enemies scissor, not take away your own scissor.

 

 

You do realize that there's also internal balance, right?

 

Why should I take barb when fighter is tankier and has better AoE?

 

Why should I ever use spell X (e.g. concelhaut's corrosive skin) when spell Y (e.g. meteor shower) does 5x the damage and in AoE on the same level.

 

I'm all for enemies getting smarter etc, but it won't fix internal balance and it won't fix inherently broken combos that just can't be fixed by smarter enemies.

 

You could of course argue that all the stuff that does not do 2k damage should be buffed and then all enemies should be buffed on top, but that's just stat bloat. There's no real difference between these buffs and nerfs, except that nerfs are way easier to do (It's much less work to nerf the smaller number of outliers) and "feel bad" for some people.

 

 

Then don't just do number gutting and add actual weaknesses. Fighters should be all rounder and barbarians should be better in a frenzy. There are ways to tackle balance beside "Gut that one person number".

 

Maybe the damage is fine and maybe the ease of use isn't. Like how EMpowered Maelstorm actually has a flaw because enemy with dash can jump (if it somehow survives) into your team and the explosion will hurt you, Meteor can become a channeling and still deal damage and SAlvo should have less accuracy or less pen. Nerfing damage on a pure damage ability only cause people to go look for the higher damage options.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[omegazen]

 

Fun thing is, game is too easy even solo now, let alone with a party. Currently it's already balanced around something like 0.5 character play.

 

You understand that your way of playing this game with the ultimate game breaking min-maxing that apparently makes even solo easy for you.. is not 99% of the player base? I know I can speak for most people by simple logic that we find no fun in simply increasing difficulty of the game because we don't go out of our way to find all the breaking combos that add no satisfaction whatsoever other than proving you can cheese the game as much as possible by going to a corner and taking 10 minutes to finish a fight. Why would the game be balanced like that? The player base would be reduced to just you, and a few dozen others lol. No normal person plays like that. Ideally, you hardcore people would have a difficulty beyond PoTD, but that's up to dev resources.

 

I like empowerred missiles that toss a volley that melts a weaker group. I like Meteor showers that destroy everything. In D&D, that's how it is. When you get to a certain level, you are practically demigod. That is what most people find fun. I played the game on Veteran towards the end, and sure it wasn't too hard(except for the final fight which came close for me). But I'm definitely going to try to do PoTD next with a different party, and I think it will be hard enough, because I don't know all the gamebreaking combos, I just play the game and make fun characters and builds. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by omegazen

[Voltron]

 

 

 

I think PotD should be balanced around solo play as the ultimate challenge and difficulty. Those who want to play in a party should play on the lower levels. 

 

See what I just did?

 

First, we should realize and agree that there is no right and wrong simply because we are in the realm of opinions and personal preferences. 

Secondly, we should realize and agree that our own opinions and personal preferences are worth the same as opinions and personal preferences of others.

Lastly, we should realize and agree that we have a choice. 

 

For the last time, using yet another parallel. There is a hill. People want to get on the top. Some hike, some take a cable car and some argue for removing the cable car because they want a challenge.

You do realize that "balancing around solo play" makes no sense in terms of bringing difficulty up. Solo play is more difficult, so balancing around difficult situation makes it easy for a party.

 

Let's assume the game would indeed be balanced around solo play. Then the expectation would be the party play (which is a lot easier) would be ridiculously easy (like, 5 times easier).

 

Fun thing is, game is too easy even solo now, let alone with a party. Currently it's already balanced around something like 0.5 character play.

 

 

It's like that because enemies can only deal damage or soak damage. No other options.

 

It's like going into a rock paper scissor fight where enemies can only play rock and paper. You need to give your enemies scissor, not take away your own scissor.

 

 

You do realize that there's also internal balance, right?

 

Why should I take barb when fighter is tankier and has better AoE?

 

Why should I ever use spell X (e.g. concelhaut's corrosive skin) when spell Y (e.g. meteor shower) does 5x the damage and in AoE on the same level.

 

I'm all for enemies getting smarter etc, but it won't fix internal balance and it won't fix inherently broken combos that just can't be fixed by smarter enemies.

 

You could of course argue that all the stuff that does not do 2k damage should be buffed and then all enemies should be buffed on top, but that's just stat bloat. There's no real difference between these buffs and nerfs, except that nerfs are way easier to do (It's much less work to nerf the smaller number of outliers) and "feel bad" for some people.

 

 

1. Because it's fun? I played now my Paladin/Chanter PotD solo knowing that later Fighter is better but I wanted roleplay Paladin. I picked Pale Elf, not nature godlike- why? Because i like how they look?

 

2. Why should you pick another spell? Because you want? If game is so super easy as you say it should not matter right?

 

You are forcing yourself to not like game cause you want to run only most optimal stuff, that is how you drain yourself.

 

Take barb and play him. Why do you care if Fighter is better? Does that mean that Bard is bad? There is always something better, stronger, faster etc. If that bothers you that much - that is on you, not on game.

 

If you will make PotD so only most optimat, super min-maxed builds can be played- that is a big fail from marketing perspective. You don't make games for small playerbase. You try to meet in the middle, with more of a shift towards bigger playerbase part- casuals. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Voltron

[dunehunter]

 

 

 

 

Balance is important but also making sure the game is not only fun to the minority hardcore player is way more important. Outside a few nerfs, I rather they make PotD hard through careful combat design and not some random number mumbo jumbo that affects the game in general.

 

Like, most of the nerfs being discussed are proposed that the game is balanced around "Solo PotD" build type. That's like, what, 1% of the playerbase?

 

Even after these things being nerfed you can still have fun in story mode thank you.

 

 

Or how about the 1% just go mod their own games instead of assuming the backseat position of a developer.

 

I'm even stomping PotD with Ranger anyway so none of these even matters to me. But of course the entitled Hardcore gamer will probably complain about it after 20 nerfs or so.

 

Go play PoE 1 solo trial of iron on a naked ranger if the game isn't hard enough for you at the moment. Obsidian won't base their whole game direction all over the 1%. It's why they're taking time relooking at PotD instead of dropping the nerf hammers in a few months.

 

 

Where did you get that 1% btw？

 

 

Look at PoE 1 Steam Achievement tracker and see how many bother to clear PotD, how many bother to solo and how many even bother to solo trial of iron with everything done.

 

Only 0.6% even bother finishing PotD and 0.3% played it solo. The people trying to balance the game completely around "Hardest possible experience" is even less than 1% of the playerbase.

 

 

 

Nah achievement doesn't mean anything. For us who back the game, we do expect a fun and challenging game instead of dull playthrough. The main plot of DF is already shorter than PoE 1, and if the combat is also not enjoyable, there is not much left to be played with.

 

Btw I didn't finish PoE myself, because the chapter 3 of it is really boring. Usually I just played chapter 1,2, WM 1 and 2, that's all. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by dunehunter

[JibSail]

 

 

 

 

Balance is important but also making sure the game is not only fun to the minority hardcore player is way more important. Outside a few nerfs, I rather they make PotD hard through careful combat design and not some random number mumbo jumbo that affects the game in general.

 

Like, most of the nerfs being discussed are proposed that the game is balanced around "Solo PotD" build type. That's like, what, 1% of the playerbase?

Even after these things being nerfed you can still have fun in story mode thank you.

Or how about the 1% just go mod their own games instead of assuming the backseat position of a developer.

 

I'm even stomping PotD with Ranger anyway so none of these even matters to me. But of course the entitled Hardcore gamer will probably complain about it after 20 nerfs or so.

 

Go play PoE 1 solo trial of iron on a naked ranger if the game isn't hard enough for you at the moment. Obsidian won't base their whole game direction all over the 1%. It's why they're taking time relooking at PotD instead of dropping the nerf hammers in a few months.

Where did you get that 1% btw？

Look at PoE 1 Steam Achievement tracker and see how many bother to clear PotD, how many bother to solo and how many even bother to solo trial of iron with everything done.

 

Only 0.6% even bother finishing PotD and 0.3% played it solo. The people trying to balance the game completely around "Hardest possible experience" is even less than 1% of the playerbase.

 

Zeitzbach has a good point here. The issue isn't a balancing issue per se. It's a design and mechanics issue.

 

The reason the game is easy isn't because my assassin evoker one hits a mob next to some barrels, but because 80% of the mob is stationed next to said barrels.

 

It isn't because high end gear is OP, but because you can afford high end gear.

 

The same with empower. Only OP, because there is no real drawback to spamming it.

 

Balance by numbers in a game is an illusion. Mechanics beats numbers always, because we, the humans, never play as the devs intended.

[Zeitzbach]

 

 

 

 

 

Balance is important but also making sure the game is not only fun to the minority hardcore player is way more important. Outside a few nerfs, I rather they make PotD hard through careful combat design and not some random number mumbo jumbo that affects the game in general.

 

Like, most of the nerfs being discussed are proposed that the game is balanced around "Solo PotD" build type. That's like, what, 1% of the playerbase?

 

Even after these things being nerfed you can still have fun in story mode thank you.

 

 

Or how about the 1% just go mod their own games instead of assuming the backseat position of a developer.

 

I'm even stomping PotD with Ranger anyway so none of these even matters to me. But of course the entitled Hardcore gamer will probably complain about it after 20 nerfs or so.

 

Go play PoE 1 solo trial of iron on a naked ranger if the game isn't hard enough for you at the moment. Obsidian won't base their whole game direction all over the 1%. It's why they're taking time relooking at PotD instead of dropping the nerf hammers in a few months.

 

 

Where did you get that 1% btw？

 

 

Look at PoE 1 Steam Achievement tracker and see how many bother to clear PotD, how many bother to solo and how many even bother to solo trial of iron with everything done.

 

Only 0.6% even bother finishing PotD and 0.3% played it solo. The people trying to balance the game completely around "Hardest possible experience" is even less than 1% of the playerbase.

 

 

 

Nah achievement doesn't mean anything. For us who back the game, we do expect a fun and challenging game instead of dull playthrough. The main plot of DF is already shorter than PoE 1, and if the combat is also not enjoyable, there is not much left to be played with.

 

Btw I didn't finish PoE myself, because the chapter 3 of it is really boring.

 

 

It's a tracker. Programmer don't work based on "Feeling". They use statistic. Statistic show that hardcore are very small amount of playerbase. There's a reason why they made the game more casual and it's not because "IT will make hardcore players mad" but it's because "Majority of the player like it that way".

 

And you find Chapter 3 boring so clearly that level of PotD difficult is boring. Why bring it to PoE 2 then?

[marc5477]

I think balance should be left to mods. Its not new content nor a bug fix thus its a waste of time for paid devs. Id rather they work on new content.

Also, balance is never going to happen for power players for the simple reason that once you have played the game, you can no longer unplay it and forget. By playing it once, you already have so much meta knowledge that no balance can ever be achieved.

Finally, I play with none of the OP stuff in my game and it is still trivially easy on PotD. Thus, nerfs will not help make it less trivial.

[MadDemiurg]

Btw, saying that nerfs are bad for casual players is also false.

 

In fact, an Average Joe probably picks abilities semi-random.

 

Average Joe 1 picks some OP ability, thinks "wow, combat in this game is so boring" and doesn't even finish 1/3rd of it.

 

Average Joe 2 picks trash abilities, thinks, "wow, this game is no fun" and doesn't even finish 1/3rd of it.

 

Internal balance is good.

 

This game wan't made "more casual". It's just a rushed release and they didn't manage to balance everything + it was a lot harder to do with multiclassing. During beta there were tons of nerfs, you'd probably protest all of them too. Do you know FoD used to be +40% lash and +20 accuracy? And "chain lightinig" type of spells used to proc all their jumps on a single target if no jump targets available? Doesn't that make you feel bad, lol?

 

And what the hell is wrong with numeric nerfs? If something is numerically too strong, it should be brought in line with balanced stuff. Numerically.

 

 

Finally, I play with none of the OP stuff in my game and it is still trivially easy on PotD. Thus, nerfs will not help make it less trivial.

 

This just means we need more nerfs .

Edited May 18, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[dunehunter]

Finally, I play with none of the OP stuff in my game and it is still trivially easy on PotD. Thus, nerfs will not help make it less trivial.

 

 

Reducing classes power gap is a good start to make the game more enjoyable.

 

If some classes are way powerful that the rest, how a designer should balance the encounters? 

 

Oh sorry I forget, as Zeitzbach, just make the game both easy for strong and weak classes, leave hands from mouse and keyboard and let AI play it 

Edited May 18, 2018 by dunehunter

[Zeitzbach]

It's getting to the point where it's more obvious that people like Dunehunter is just messing around since he doesn't really care much about the game being challenging to play, just challenging to think about playing.

[Voltron]

 

Finally, I play with none of the OP stuff in my game and it is still trivially easy on PotD. Thus, nerfs will not help make it less trivial.

 

 

Reducing classes power gap is a good start to make the game more enjoyable.

 

If some classes are way powerful that the rest, how a designer should balance the encounters? 

 

Oh sorry I forget, as Zeitzbach, just make the game both easy for strong and weak classes, leave hands from mouse and keyboard and let AI play it 

 

 

There will awlays be weaker and stronger class, best weapon/spell etc. Nerf one, another one takes it place. What you are saying is gaming balance utopia never achieved in any game even with biggest studios.

 

There was, is and always will be "Meta". There is always strongest build and weakest class. That's how it works. And I am 100% sure Obsidian do not have both time and manpower to balance the game the way you want. And by the time they will- most players will already move on. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Voltron

[dunehunter]

It's getting to the point where it's more obvious that people like Dunehunter is just messing around since he doesn't really care much about the game being challenging to play, just challenging to think about playing.

 

Obviously it's you that didn't give any concrete suggestion to make the game more challenging here.

[MadDemiurg]

 

 

Finally, I play with none of the OP stuff in my game and it is still trivially easy on PotD. Thus, nerfs will not help make it less trivial.

 

 

Reducing classes power gap is a good start to make the game more enjoyable.

 

If some classes are way powerful that the rest, how a designer should balance the encounters? 

 

Oh sorry I forget, as Zeitzbach, just make the game both easy for strong and weak classes, leave hands from mouse and keyboard and let AI play it 

 

 

There will awlays be weaker and stronger class, best weapon/spell etc. Nerf one, another one takes it place. What you are saying is gaming utopia never achieved in any game even with biggest studios.

There was, is and always will be "Meta". There is always strongest build and weakest class. That's how it works. And I am 100% sure Obsidian do not have both time and manpower to balance the game the way you want. And by the time they will- most players will already move on.

 

It's impossible to achieve "perfect" balance, but it's quite possible to achieve decent balance.

 

Obsidian did, in PoE1. I have faith they'll do it again. They had the time and manpower too apparently.

 

Even Tyranny got the worst offenders like material enchant stacking or volcanic weapons fixed, even if it took a long time.

Edited May 18, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[Zeitzbach]

 

It's getting to the point where it's more obvious that people like Dunehunter is just messing around since he doesn't really care much about the game being challenging to play, just challenging to think about playing.

 

Obviously it's you that didn't give any concrete suggestion to make the game more challenging here.

 

 

That's really a problem with you not reading anything to begin with. Figured why you left the game at chapter 3 because it has texts instead of easy numbers and pictures.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[dunehunter]

 

 

 

Finally, I play with none of the OP stuff in my game and it is still trivially easy on PotD. Thus, nerfs will not help make it less trivial.

 

 

Reducing classes power gap is a good start to make the game more enjoyable.

 

If some classes are way powerful that the rest, how a designer should balance the encounters? 

 

Oh sorry I forget, as Zeitzbach, just make the game both easy for strong and weak classes, leave hands from mouse and keyboard and let AI play it 

 

 

There will awlays be weaker and stronger class, best weapon/spell etc. Nerf one, another one takes it place. What you are saying is gaming utopia never achieved in any game even with biggest studios.

There was, is and always will be "Meta". There is always strongest build and weakest class. That's how it works. And I am 100% sure Obsidian do not have both time and manpower to balance the game the way you want. And by the time they will- most players will already move on.

 

It's impossible to achieve "perfect" balance, but it's quite possible to achieve decent balance.

 

Obsidian did, in PoE1. I have faith they'll do it again. They had the time and manpower too apparently.

 

Even Tyranny got the worst offenders like material enchant stacking or volcanic weapons fixed, even if it took a long time.

 

 

Oh so they did fix the volcanic weapons lol? That sounds a good news :D

[Voltron]

 

 

 

Finally, I play with none of the OP stuff in my game and it is still trivially easy on PotD. Thus, nerfs will not help make it less trivial.

 

 

Reducing classes power gap is a good start to make the game more enjoyable.

 

If some classes are way powerful that the rest, how a designer should balance the encounters? 

 

Oh sorry I forget, as Zeitzbach, just make the game both easy for strong and weak classes, leave hands from mouse and keyboard and let AI play it 

 

 

There will awlays be weaker and stronger class, best weapon/spell etc. Nerf one, another one takes it place. What you are saying is gaming utopia never achieved in any game even with biggest studios.

There was, is and always will be "Meta". There is always strongest build and weakest class. That's how it works. And I am 100% sure Obsidian do not have both time and manpower to balance the game the way you want. And by the time they will- most players will already move on.

 

It's impossible to achieve "perfect" balance, but it's quite possible to achieve decent balance.

 

Obsidian did, in PoE1. I have faith they'll do it again. They had the time and manpower too apparently.

 

Even Tyranny got the worst offenders like material enchant stacking or volcanic weapons fixed, even if it took a long time.

 

 

Tyranny already "died" at point when they did fix Volcanic weapons. I managed to finish game 3 times and then there was quite some time before that even happened. 

 

It's not online game where you have to constantly worry about balance.