The big nerf list (patch 1.2) (WIP)

[theBalthazar]

Empower

2 per encounter (1 now)

PL+3 (PL+10 now)

 

Brillant inspiration

All 6s (All 3s now)

 

Barring death door

6s+int is already enough.

 

St elcga (aka Tiny barring death door)

4s+int of immortality.

 

Devotion for the faithful

+15 accuracy (And stack if possible, like that builders will be happy. Against one strong ennemy, a Fighter/priest can activate conquerer stance +10 (= 2 abilitiy point spend...). Actually is totally useless is there devotions for the faithful. It is even illogical actually in a sense.) 

Edited May 18, 2018 by theBalthazar

[MadDemiurg]

I don't think nerfing duration of "can't die" would do any good. It would just become useless in the "normal" usecase, and still potentially gamebreaking with brilliant.

 

Brilliant triggering every 6s is also still way OP. If you're dead set on it granting resources I'd just change it to make the next (ONE) ability you use free. Still pretty OP, but it's the most reasonable implementation I can come up with. Or make it trigger like every 20s with current implementation.

[Thetis]

obviously the devs want that the game can be a challenge otherwise we would only have storymode where players can be gods, so nerfs or adjustments are to expected. Withe absurd damage numbers that can be achieved atm, like 2k + screen nukes, they would have either have to buff monsters to 3k hp+ or nerf players.

[theBalthazar]

20s is far too much.

 

You gain 1 per kill with a lot of classes and a lot of battles end quickly. Brilliant become poop.

 

Every 9s is perhaps the good balancing after all.

[Climhazzard]

I really do agree that Devotions should be nerfed in place of accuracy stacking being a thing.  If Devotions were 15, conquerors 10, zealous focus 5, you'd have 30 on a fighter.  Currently you get 25 from devotions and the other two skills are useless.  Drugs or other bonuses might still be to much though...

[JerekKruger]

With the Brilliant Inspiration I think simply making it return X class resources as a one off when received (rather than a ticking return) might be enough.

[MadDemiurg]

20s is far too much.

 

You gain 1 per kill with a lot of classes and a lot of battles end quickly. Brilliant become poop.

 

Every 9s is perhaps the good balancing after all.

I must admit I'm not a fan of these either, but at least they're not on the most problematic classes (Pala, Barb), so I let them slide for now. If let's say underpowered paladin actives get buffed though this potentially needs a nerf/change as well, some actives are too strong to be spammable. These abilites break the balance of the resource system.

Edited May 18, 2018 by MadDemiurg

[ppscurry]

Rather than lowering empower levels, perhaps lowering the effect of empower on certain abilitirs makes more sense instead? For example, Using empower on certain rogue abilties clearly arent as impactful as empowering meteor shower. I do agree that empowered meteor shower is OP btw ,but only its empowered form. In this case, lowering the effect of PL on it makes more sense than a blanket nerf on empower to maybe +5. Empowerinf Minoletta is obviously one of the biggest offenders in the empower debate. An empowered PL4 shouldnt be as strong as an empowered PL7,8,9.

 

PS. Phone typing is hard. Sorry about that

[GuyNice]

I really do agree that Devotions should be nerfed in place of accuracy stacking being a thing.  If Devotions were 15, conquerors 10, zealous focus 5, you'd have 30 on a fighter.  Currently you get 25 from devotions and the other two skills are useless.  Drugs or other bonuses might still be to much though...

Yeah I think Devotions at 15 with no stacking would be good. The other accuracy buffs are there to support no-priest parties, they have free alternates (stances, auras) for a reason, just plan your party accordingly, and if didn't know better there's respec in the game.

 

But a Devotions nerf should be part of a Priest balance pass bringing the rest of the class up to par (spells and passives).

[JerekKruger]

Glad to hear my experiences of empowered Minoletta's Concussive Missiles isn't unique. I can usually one shot a small group of enemies with that spell.

 

@ppscurry - I don't like making empower do different things for different abilities, send so inelegant. Instead power level scaling of different abilities needs to be tweaked so it's equally useful for all of them.

 

Rest spam also needs to be addressed, otherwise Empower should just be removed.

[GuyNice]

Rather than lowering empower levels, perhaps lowering the effect of empower on certain abilitirs makes more sense instead? For example, Using empower on certain rogue abilties clearly arent as impactful as empowering meteor shower. I do agree that empowered meteor shower is OP btw ,but only its empowered form. In this case, lowering the effect of PL on it makes more sense than a blanket nerf on empower to maybe +5. Empowerinf Minoletta is obviously one of the biggest offenders in the empower debate. An empowered PL4 shouldnt be as strong as an empowered PL7,8,9.

 

PS. Phone typing is hard. Sorry about that

I could see Empower giving better returns on lower PL abilities if abilities were to be properly tuned for their level. Some lower PL abilities would have to see diminishes returns from Empower (like Minoletta's) first, and the power level in general would have to be 'normalized' a bit to make PL a better indicator of actual power. This approach would perhaps make the decision to empower spells more interesting - do I give a 200% boost to my level 1 spell or a 20% boost to my level 9 (for example)?

 

But it would depend on a somewhat balanced field (which we are sadly far from).

[Maxzero]

Glad to hear my experiences of empowered Minoletta's Concussive Missiles isn't unique. I can usually one shot a small group of enemies with that spell.

 

@ppscurry - I don't like making empower do different things for different abilities, send so inelegant. Instead power level scaling of different abilities needs to be tweaked so it's equally useful for all of them.

 

Rest spam also needs to be addressed, otherwise Empower should just be removed.

 

As I said earlier Empower has me stumped as to why it was introduced.

 

My solution:

 

Empower +5 PL

Do not need to rest to recover (resting is free and unlimited so wtf is point of the rest limit?)

 

Normal: 3x encounter

Veteran: 2x encounter

PotD: 1x encounter

 

Honestly I would prefer if it wasn't even in the game but we are stuck with it.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Maxzero

[ppscurry]

I think another issue Is the limited number of times you can cast high level spells. Being able to cast a PL9 only once means that it has to be overpowered and that makes any potential interaction with it broken aka empower.

 

If obsidian boosts the number of spells available per level to lets say 4? They can drastically nerf some abilties while still maintaining their viability.

 

Furthermore, picking and casting counter spells like arcane dampener or debuff spells won't be as punishing since it won't eat up half your resources. It functions as a stealth nerf to the chanters invocation as well since its impact is lessened. With 4 resources per level, theres a high chance your spells won't run out before the fight ends so replenishing won't make much of a difference.

 

As for swift flurry, i like the suggestion where it cant trigger off itself.

[divjak]

personaly i dont think briliant is an issue, there are very few cases in fights  where you really need it, it comes late, when class  resources are abundant already, I had it but it was really more to increse my phrases cap than anything, my most used invocation was upgraded thrice she was wrong as a skald.

I would rather have 3,5 casts of thrice she was wrong, than briliant imo. It comes to action economy, as in  how much impact can you have in a certain amount of time. 

If you multiclass it comes at level 19, which is basically just about going into endgame area, and other buffs you get except brilliant is accessible to most classes anyways.

Its basically most useful for chanter itself, it enables you to go full into invocations

 

 

I think enemies are badly balanced, I remember once during beta enemies were strong, used lots of abilities, focus fire, interrupts, and so on, game was hard, and then people complained so they nerfed POTD to oblivion just to sell more.

Everybody wonts to say I have beaten the game at POTD, but few really wont a hard game

Edited May 18, 2018 by divjak

[theBalthazar]

Yeah I think Devotions at 15 with no stacking would be good. The other accuracy buffs are there to support no-priest parties, they have free alternates (stances, auras) for a reason, just plan your party accordingly, and if didn't know better there's respec in the game.

 

 

In fact, if you have 15, you doesn't change anything. I left all 5/10 accuracy. I do again devotion like before, end of the strategy.

 

Conquerer stance = always so useless.  Zealous = always so useless.

 

I even prefer 10 of accuracy of devotion for the faithful with stack. Tools of paladin and fighter become TRUE tools. What is the point to conquerer stance if not ? To never be used ?

 

Again, except if you don't have a priest in the team or if you are low level, all of this is useless in a great plan. I explain.

 

If I have spend 2 ability point for conquerer stance. Yes the first point you can change for cleave stance (but in fact you change for ever when devotion come)

 

Let admit cleave is useless in a case (one strong boss for example without minion) If I invest in conquerer stance, devotion of the faithful replace it totally. Wrong choice ? No, perfect for this situation (One ennemy, hard to touch = conquerer stance would be normally the response), but Obsidian do not allow that.

 

So, personnally I prefer a big NERF of devotion for the faithful (Even 10...) and more possibles stack. 

 

10 (devotion) + 10 (conquerer stance) + 5 (zealous) = 25.

 

So it is +5 if you have heavy invest. A true invest in fact. Perfectly Normal.

Edited May 18, 2018 by theBalthazar

[GuyNice]

Rest spam also needs to be addressed, otherwise Empower should just be removed.

Agreed, I wouldn't mind seeing Camping Supplies return (with lower cap based on difficulty, like in Pillars 1). Want to Empower every encounter? Go ahead, but it's going to cost you precious real time and copper (for crew wages, food and camping supplies). Now if I want to clear content as efficiently as possible, I'm going to save those Empowers for the toughest encounters, or to save a character from getting injured. Costing the player time won't stop everyone from abusing the rest system, but it would make most people think before they hit that magic button. At least it worked on me in Pillars 1.

[theBalthazar]

Rest spam was present in POE1.

 

That why Wizzard / Druid / Priest was so broken.

 

If you put this to "day", Player can advance time.

 

If you put per encounter, broken actually (PL+10 each battle...). Except IF !

 

PL+3 x 2

 

A reduced amount ALWAYS per encounter, no need to rest.

 

Per rest system is absurd. I dislike this system since POE1. I was happy when POE2 go totally with per encounter system.

 

All combats you can do PL+3 x 2. More strategic. Less powerful, less abusive.

Edited May 18, 2018 by theBalthazar

[dunehunter]

There is also:

Passive:

• Faithful and Conviction +21 all def

Self-buff:

• Arcane Veil +50 def
• Citzal's Martial Power +20 acc +20 def
• Borrowed Instinct +20 acc +20 def
• Vigorous Defense +20 all def

AoE-buff:

• Devotion of Faithful +20 acc
• Shield of Faithful +25 def

 

Honestly their bonus are too much compared with inspiration system.

Edited May 18, 2018 by dunehunter

[GuyNice]

 

Yeah I think Devotions at 15 with no stacking would be good. The other accuracy buffs are there to support no-priest parties, they have free alternates (stances, auras) for a reason, just plan your party accordingly, and if didn't know better there's respec in the game.

 

 

In fact, if you have 15, you doesn't change anything. I left all 5/10 accuracy. I do devotion, end of the strategy.

 

Conquerer stance = always so useless.  Zealous = always so useless.

 

I even prefer 10 of accuracy of devotion for the faithful with stack. Tools of paladin and fighter become TRUE tools. What is the point to conquerer stance if not ? To never be used ?

 

Again, except if you don't have a priest in the team or if you are low level, all of this is useless in a great plan. I explain.

 

If I have spend 2 ability point for conquerer stance. Yes the first point you can change for cleave stance (but in fact you change for ever when devotion come)

 

Let admit cleave is useless in a case (one strong boss for example without minion) If I invest in conquerer stance, devotion of the faithful replace it totally. Wrong choice ? No, perfect for this situation (One ennemy, hard to touch = conquerer stance would be normally the response), but Obsidian do not allow that.

 

So, personnally I prefer a big NERF of devotion for the faithful (Even 10...) and more possibles stack. 

 

10 (devotion) + 10 (conquerer stance) + 5 (zealous) = 25.

 

So it is +5 if you have heavy invest. A true invest in fact. Perfectly Normal.

 

I admit no stacking is a bit irksome if you invest in something like conquerer stance, but then you would have to scour the entire game for active accuracy buffs, or risk trivializing enemy defenses. Off the top of my head, potions and drugs would need to have all accuracy buffs removed, same with weapon proficiencies (certain modals give accuracy, don't stack), probably there are a bunch of items with active buffs that don't stack. So it would require a major rework of the system to avoid yet another avenue to trivialize content.

 

Or just accept that zealous focus / conquerer stance are there for people who don't want to bring a Priest to the party. By the way conquerer stance still gives a buff to deflection (increased with low health) so it's not a total waste with Devotions. Maybe give the talent something extra (say, +crit damage, since fighter already has graze-to-hit and hit-to-crit in the kit) to compensate for no stacking. Also buff the zealous focus talent that gives 5% hit-to-crit, it's terrible even without Devotions. I think it's much easier and more elegant than stripping the rest of the game from all active accuracy buffs.

Edited May 18, 2018 by GuyNice

[Soulmojo]

PALADIN

 

-Change Flames of Devotion from "full attack" to "primary attack"

 

Paladin should be a defensive / supportive class. But people multiclass it for maximum DPS because of Flames of Devotion.

 

I have never seen a dual wielding paladin in any fantasy setting ever. It's always weapon and shield or two-handed weapon.

 

This fixes classes like rogue, cipher, barbarian, etc... taking paladin multiclass just for the 1 resource point insane high DPS ability.

 

I like this and support this idea. being full attack ability is quite op at the moment.

Especially with kind wayfarer who get double heal too. No need for healers if you have a dual wield kind wayfarer.

Making it a primary attack with a little buffed fire damage makes it work as intented.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Soulmojo

[divjak]

I think there is issue with resting, you can basically rest a screen away from enemies, maybe resting should be limited to world map, or  when you rest in a dungeon or hostile island there is a high chance of ambush before you get benefits of rest

Edited May 18, 2018 by divjak

[GuyNice]

Rest spam was present in POE1.

 

That why Wizzard / Druid / Priest was so broken.

 

If you put this to "day", Player can advance time.

 

If you put per encounter, broken actually (PL+10 each battle...). Except IF !

 

PL+3 x 2

 

A reduced amount ALWAYS per encounter, no need to rest.

 

Per rest system is absurd. I dislike this system since POE1. I was happy when POE2 go totally with per encounter system.

 

All combats you can do PL+3 x 2. More strategic. Less powerful, less abusive.

Rest spam cost precious time on PotD since you could only carry 2 camping supplies. So it was a choice, to waste your time in order to make every encounter easier. Or play strategically, conserve resources, and think about when you have to rest.

 

That being said, I like your suggestion (PL+3 x2) better than the current (broken) implementation. Maybe if you use 1 of your empowers on an ability, make it possible to restore 1/4 resources as well (instead of 1/2) per encounter. Introducing a bit more flexibility to the system.

[Soulmojo]

Monk:

I would add the intellect bonus of duality of mortal presence. +10 intellect is quite overpowered. also makes clarity of agony upgrade useless. Duality INT bonus should be some other stat. which does not overlap with other monk inspiration. I thinked perception...maybe

Plus I really think torments reach stun duration should be nerfed to like 2 second. with high INT and power level bonus you can reach quite long duration. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Soulmojo

[GuyNice]

There is also:

Passive: Faithful and Conviction +21 all def

Self-buff: Arcane Veil +50 def, Citzal's Martial Power +20 acc +20 def, Borrowed Instinct +20 acc +20 def, Vigorous Defense +20 all def

AoE-buff: Devotion of Faithful +20 acc, Shield of Faithful +25 def.

 

Honestly their bonus are too much compared with inspiration system.

Agreed, I would add Borrowed Instinct as well, +20 accuracy and +20 def. Way too much in the new system (with lower accuracy/defense values).

[theBalthazar]

Or just accept that zealous focus / conquerer stance are there for people who don't want to bring a Priest to the party. By the way conquerer stance still gives a buff to deflection (increased with low health) so it's not a total waste with Devotions. Maybe give the talent something extra (say, +crit damage, since fighter already has graze-to-hit and hit-to-crit in the kit) to compensate for no stacking. Also buff the zealous focus talent that gives 5% hit-to-crit, it's terrible even without Devotions. I think it's much easier and more elegant than stripping the rest of the game from all active accuracy buffs.

 

 

 

So if I am a fighter. No Priest because I choose that, no zealous focus (replace it 10 > 5)... And perhaps against boss, I can use my conquerer stance... Short, need to be a solo player : p

 

Why not. But not so much fun for team building...

 

And one of my highter pleasure is team building. Too bad : p Too much constraint while Multiclass was selling an other dream... I prefer NERF+Extend possibles associations personnally. Always good for creativity.

 

Paladin should be a defensive / supportive class

 

 

Without me if it is like POE1.

 

Paladin was one of the worse class. I don't want go back in this system. Paladin is mainly single target. (more than fighter now)

 

So, if you cut (again) FoD, Choose a paladin more than a Fighter will be extremely difficult.

 

Fighter and paladin need a niche of High single DPS, it is normal. If not I pick 5 assassin-evoker you know ? End of the game. Be careful with that...

 

Rogue need buff, less cost of guile for almost all his active abilities. Paladin and fighter are globally OK. Perhaps a little nerf of Faith and conviction. But no more now. Also, think to a single class paladin...

Edited May 18, 2018 by theBalthazar